aloyisious wrote: » Heard her on RTE earlier telling how it was for her, the actual medical reasons behind her decision to opt for an abortion, the goings-on at the court case around it and the actual realities at the operation in England, that at the end it wasn't an abortion, rather an early induction.
SusieBlue wrote: » Her reasons are valid and more than adequate. She doesn’t have to prove her case to you or anyone else.
aloyisious wrote: » We'd be mostly rehashing what are now two dated arguments about what was and is needed by women here. Reference the fact that you acknowledge that the 8th was in itself bad legislation, reason for fighting against it's deletion and not making a case for having it removed and replaced by good legislation in a timely way is an extremely bad verdict to bring against the Pro-life campaign. To then claim the reason for the fight to keep the 8th was because the proposed legislation meant we could not vote on it at the time is arcane: "the 8th is poor legislation but the proposed legislation meant we could not remove it at THAT time". Who's the "WE"? What's the "at that time" mean, given we are talking about a time period of several decades between both referendums? What is the "proposed legislation" you mention as a given reason for keeping the 8th in place? Why did the "WE" not put their backs behind the Irish people and come up with a solution to what you admit was the 8th's poor legislation? You have written that "they were wrong to oppose POLDPA but i understand their reasons for doing so, as ultimately they were proven correct on their view that this was a pre-curser to unrestricted abortion". What does that mean? It seems to SUGGEST that you had a difference of opinion about POLDPA's merits with the Pro-life campaign as you wrote "I understand their reasons for doing so...….." as you seem to have approved of POLDPA as a legislative replacement for the protection of the rights of the unborn. Maybe I'm wrong in believing you are in favour of the POLDPA legislation but you in fact have been against it throughout. Your using the words "WE" and "THEY" in your above to describe your position is [IMO] arcane.
end of the road wrote: » i would say more the potential issues rather then the outcome as a whole. i would think most people very much knew what the basic outcome would be and voted to put in the 8th accordingly. they did not want abortion for any reason being legal in their country,the problem for the 8th was that it didn't take into account genuine medical necessity. POLDPA sorted that out and is really what we should have continued with. certainly the 8th was of itself bad legislation, plenty of fellow pro-lifers seem to agree with that from what i can see.
end of the road wrote: » unrestricted doesn't simply have to refer to accessability, it can also refer to little to no reason being required for procurement as is the case in ireland before 12 weeks.
lazygal wrote: » Abortion is highly regulated in Ireland. One of the few medical procedures covered in the criminal code, in fact. No one would reasonably think there is unrestricted access to it. Especially given the fact that some counties have zero GPs providing the service and 11 out of 19 maternity units currently provide all necessary abortion services.
Odhinn wrote: » On TG4 tonight, 2130 hrs, for those interestedhttps://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/i-didnt-even-know-what-an-abortion-was-but-i-was-all-over-the-paper-38599268.html
end of the road wrote: » . they were wrong to oppose POLDPA but i understand their reasons for doing so, as ultimately they were proven correct on their view that this was a pre-curser to unrestricted abortion.
volchitsa wrote: » And yet Irish prolifers all fought POLDP tooth and nail. And defended the 8th ditto, right up until a few weeks before the referendum when presumably their own numbers must have told them they were losing. So it seems like you're rewriting history there.
SusieBlue wrote: » That's a very bold, unfounded claim. Any evidence to back it up? I'm very interested to see your proof that the public "didn't want abortion to be legal in this country", seeing as that's exactly what the public voted overwhelmingly in favour of. I'm curious to see evidence of them actually NOT being in favour of this. I'll wait to see your data. PS. your opinion doesn't count as proof.
lazygal wrote: » Every abortion in Ireland is for genuine medical necessity. Pregnancy is a serious medical undertaking. Abortion before 12 weeks is safer than staying pregnant. Certainly it is safer than the c sections I had. All the main prolife campaign groups, including Love Both, The Life Institute/Youth Defence and the Iona Institute opposed the POLDP Act and, by extension, the will of the Irish people as expressed in a referendum in 1992. They also all opposed any change to the eighth amendment, even if it was amended solely to deal with what they coldly call the 'hard cases'.
Twelve years ago, Amy Dunne was devastated to learn that her unborn baby had a fatal foetal abnormality. As 'Miss D', her fight to travel for an abortion became front page news. In a heartbreaking interview, she tells Tanya Sweeney why the wounds won't heal
aloyisious wrote: » One of the arguments made by the Yes campaign through debate around Ireland in relation to the delete the 8th issue was that a lot of the people who voted in the 8th amendment in '82/83 actually hadn't a clue and didn't inform themselves on the outcome of putting the 8th into our constitution and may have decided it was time to make another change to it. This time the issue was strongly debated and argued on by both sides for months before a national decision was made by the voters on it whether to delete the 8th or let it stay. The fact that a large number of the Yes voters who decided delete the 8th issue were also involved in putting the 8th into the constitution showed [IMO] how the voters thought process had matured strongly when it came to the nitty-gritty of the referendum question and the future outcome of and vote, yea or nay. On the issue of what occurred across the water, that's like what happened to us in '82 and most probably why we've been getting our knickers in a twist here about the con-job pulled on the referendum voters there by their retired National and EU Parliamentarians, seeing as we learned a hard-won lesson from the '82 referendum.
end of the road wrote: » nothing funny about it at all susie. i argued the opposite on the basis that there wasn't any real excuse not to inform oneself of what was being voted on. but unfortunately watching the outcome of a certain vote in a country right across the water from us, and the fact that we are seeing more and more by the day that there were some who actually hadn't a clue and who don't believe in informing themselves about anything, it is reasonable for me to realise that the idea that some didn't know what they were voting for, may be one i shouldn't dismiss so easily. yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.
Drumpot wrote: » Genuine questions. I don’t have all the answers and there’s a lot I don’t know about this. I’ve raised concerns I have because We don’t have all the answers and we don’t know how this might change our values in the longer term. I’m regularly misinterpreted because I always try and see different angles on most things that can often drive me mad. I voted yes for good reasons, as I do believe a woman should be able to choose but I don’t know how I feel about abortions. It’s not about looking down on people who choose it, it’s about how we as a society choose to integrate it into our lives. I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me. Now that’s not a reason to not have abortion, but it’s one reason to pause and reflect now that abortions are available. The war is won on abortions, i would like to see these sort of things (mental/health after abortions, supports for male partners) also addresses and out in the open. I don’t want abortion to be a shameful decision to make but I fundamentally believe. it should be a hard decision every time. Maybe it is, perhaps my view is skewered somewhat by somebody I know who had multiple abortions and doesn’t appear to be too bothered by it, but I think we learn more from our decisions when there is a cost we understand and are prepared to take.
Peregrinus wrote: » When I was that age a pack of two would have lasted me, um, a while. I recognise that I'm on the hind foot here, having weighed into this conversation with a half-remembered article that I can't cite, and for which I made claims that I have since conceded were overblown. So my credibility is maybe a bit shot. But, still: 1. I don't object to making contraception freely available. Nor do I object to making it freely available, but only to women, though I am curious to know what the thinking here is. 2. I'm just a bit sceptical of the assumption that "this'll reduce the frequency of abortions", which is the point I came in to make. 3. I think policy here ought to be evidence-based. If we want to reduce the frequency of abortions, step 1 is an exploration of the factors that sustain the current frequency.
Drumpot wrote: » Why did you misinterpret what I said? I never said a man getting annoyed, i said a man getting upset with a decision his partner had made. So now men’s feelings don’t matter and they should just suck it up if it upsets them? I do not believe This is a very progressive attitude to take on this matter. But I understand Your position a bit better. I can see coming here for was a mistake.
lazygal wrote: » I have two sons. They have no right to be annoyed that someone else is deciding to have an abortion. That line of reasoning gives me no pause for reflection. Abortion is a normal medical procedure. It doesn't have to be hard as a decision. My family is complete. I don't want any more children. Another pregnancy wouldn't be a hard decision for me, I would have an abortion. Why should it always have to be a hard decision, exactly? Sidenote: The only 'side' I've heard say they know people who've had multiple abortions are those who don't want abortion to be available and frame these stories as tales of irresponsible slutty girls who are reckless with their bodies. It is of no concern to me how many abortions someone has, once that is the right choice for them. They may regret them, they may not. But just like its no business of mine how many pregnancies anyone miscarries or continues to full term, there is no reason to see someone's reproductive choices as a possible reason to disallow choice to all.
Drumpot wrote: » I have three sons and I do wonder what it will be like for one of them to come home distraught if a girl they loved has an abortion. Of course the girl has absolutely the right to make that call, but her having that right and choosing that right arbitrarily, doesn’t make the pain and suffering of my child any less real or important to him or me.
lazygal wrote: » On the medical side, GPs and ob-gyns are attending training sessions and there are more GPs signing up and plans are on track to expand abortion services in all 19 maternity units, currently 11 provide it. On the school side, there's a revised RSE programme being planned but needless to say the major stumbling block are religious patrons who want to be able to continue to offer biased, ethos based sex education. Are you really asking questions you want answers to or are you meaning to sound like you think everyone but you hasn't really thought about abortion, contraception and reproductive rights over the past 30 years?
Drumpot wrote: » Who are you arguing with? Will you stop responding like I’ve said abortions and free contraception should not be available. I’ve never said that.
The implications will become clear if we don’t do this right.
Back it up with education and resources to make it easy for woman/couples to equally access abortions or alternative services/resources that don’t necessarily make abortion the goto choice.
My issue with all you people is you can’t discuss the values/morals/ethics because you haven’t considered it.
So you get People like you Pidgeon holing alternative views , I’m like the religious folk or far right, because you can’t imagine anybody who tries to look at it from multiple angles.
There is no debates happening, just “make abortion available” and if you don’t think it’s that simple you get hounded out of here.
Drumpot wrote: » What is being done so far to educate and implement abortions into our country? Genuine question. Has it been included in schools for debates? Genuine question. One thing that does give me hope is that I was at an “educate together” school promotion and it does look like these schools are promoting debate and individual thinking/challanging of ones views. I think it’s important that healthy discussion are continually encouraged on all aspects of society. Conformed thinking can be good and bad, I like the idea of people learning to properly challange themselves and other. I didn’t learn this growing up and I think most of us Learn just how to win arguments or convince others of what we believe. Perhaps the way I have posted has upset some here, my intentions were to try and have a meaningful discussion but this a topic I find upsetting and emotive which was why I stayed away. I thought after the vote was in people might be able to disused it with less emotion, whether it is this or the way I am posting (maybe both) I don’t really want to be arguing with people. This is my point. I don’t believe we have grown up in a world where we are prepared to have our views challanged, I mean myself aswell. I’m obviously not communicating my point here because I’ve made the same decisions most of you have made but I’ve agonised a lot over the implications that I see that can come from the Likes of this and other societal issues.
Drumpot wrote: » What is being done so far to educate and implement abortions into our country? Genuine question.
SusieBlue wrote: » We are all responsible for our own choices. If we regret them, that's on us. Not on society for giving us the option. Taking away the choice is not the answer. Again, you are implying these are things that weren't considered or discussed in the run up to the referendum. They were, at great length. Everyone knew what they were voting for. Everyone knew what voting to repeal would mean for this country. The referendum made ineternational news, for goodness sake. So to infer, over a whole year later, that nobody thought of the consequences and didn't consider the "questions nobody wants to address" is ludacrios.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » You keep saying there are implications. What are they? Where is your evidence that they will happen? Where is your evidence that these implications (implied to be bad) will in fact be bad? This is tiresome not only because it's been heard so many times before in recent years in relation to abortion, it's been going on for literally decades in relation to contraception. We were endlessly told that widespread access to contraception will destroy society, the family and our immortal souls...
