end of the road wrote: » n yes, her womb though susie, not her unborn baby.
SusieBlue wrote: » That's hilarious seeing as you repeatedly argued the exact opposite in the run up to the referendum, I can pull up the posts if you wish.
SusieBlue wrote: » Perfect, then you agree that what a woman does with the her womb is none of your business. I'm glad we agree.
Drumpot wrote: » I voted yes. A person doesn’t have to view this topic as absolute/binary as others. Like I said, it’s clear some of you are unsettled simply because I’m challanging your own long held dogmas on the topic.
Drumpot wrote: » Abortion and contraception are very much imbedded as issues relating to religious dogmas which is fair. But to consider this more objectively you have to take religion out of the equation and ask yourself if you agree fundamentally with how we are deciding to change certain practices.
My major issue isn’t that contraception be made available or free or that abortions should not be available, it’s that I don’t believe the consequences of how these decisions will change our values have never been considered. And that’s partly because people value “freedom” to do what they want, instant gratification and as little responsibility as possible for their actions. That’s the society I see, not just in this topic but many other things in life.
Society doesn’t appear to be getting happier, it’s getting more depressed, more anxious, more addicted (binge tv is considered kind of funny) and more disconnected to each other. I’m not suggesting this is because of abortion or anything like that, but it’s because we have replaced grounded if not sometimes misguided or bad values, with junk values.
You make something easy and we value it less, it really is that simple. Abortions being the go to solution if it doesn’t suit you (even for trivial reasons) devalues human life in my view. If you think I’m saying people shouldn’t have the right to abortion , just don’t respond to me, you aren’t getting it and probably won’t.
lazygal wrote: » What questions do people not want to address? We've literally just come out of a 30 year debate on all sides of the abortion argument. It was debated up and down and inside out. Free contraception was considered by the eighth amendment committee too and covered in its report. Who isn't answering your questions?
Drumpot wrote: » We make what we think are the best decisions at any particular time. But decisions we make have longer term implications on future generations. You aren’t understanding what I am saying , this is clear when I you suggest I’m horrified at abortions and free contraception, when I’m not. I’m asking questions nobody wants to address , possibly because it’s not something that people consider.
SusieBlue wrote: » We knew exactly what we were voting for. The No side did everything in their power to muddy the waters with fake news, skewed statistics and an emotionally manipulative poster campaign. The Yes side still won, despite this. To say people didn't know what they were doing or didn't think of the consequences is extremely naive.
SusieBlue wrote: » You are free to not avail of free contraception and to not seek abortions if you find the idea of both so repugnant. I respect your right to choose that, I just don't respect your right to inflict that view on everyone else. You seem to be under the impression that people "haven't thought it through" and don't know what they're doing which isn't the case and is highly insulting. Nobodies bodily autonomy should be arrested by the personal morals & ethics of strangers. Particularly when they don't agree with them. The current law allows those who require terminations to avail of them, and those who disagree with them, can continue to live their lives as they did before. Unfortunately a lot of people still haven't accepted that the can't dictate the lives of others but I live in hope that one day they will afford others the same respect they expect themselves.
end of the road wrote: » what's insulting about it? to be fair, unless you knew what every single person was thinking in the poling booth, then you can't say that "we" as in all people who voted yes, all knew what they were voting for. they very well may have, a majority of them very well may have, but it's not something that can be said with absolute certainty. there was no excuse for them not to know mind.
unborn baby, not womb. nobody cares what someone does with their womb specifically.
lazygal wrote: » Who hasn't considered them? Abortion was more debated in Ireland over the years since 1983 than any other issue. You're late to the party if you think it hasn't.
SusieBlue wrote: » That's so insulting. We had a referendum, we knew what we were voting for. Repeal won by landslide. The people have spoken so don't try to imply we didn't know what we were doing when we voted Yes.
SusieBlue wrote: » And women know exactly what they're doing when they seek a termination. They have thought it through and don't need anyone else's interferance or opinion when it comes to their choice about their womb.
Drumpot wrote: » Your own link states exactly what I am saying: Education and cultural values are more important factors then the cost of alcohol.
Drumpot wrote: » I’m asking questions that clearly haven’t been considered. How is asking for questions “imposing my values” on others? I think it’s more people are uncomfortable/unfamiliar with this element of the topic. I’m not absolute on this topic and some of you can’t get your head around it so are trying to Pidgeon hole the topic back to church v freedom (or something like that).
Drumpot wrote: » Yes it does depend on them. I don’t see much dissuasion on this at all though. All I see is people looking to win an argument with no real capacity to reflect on a wider spectrum. Abortion and contraception are very much imbedded as issues relating to religious dogmas which is fair. But to consider this more objectively you have to take religion out of the equation and ask yourself if you agree fundamentaly with how we are deciding to change certain practices. My major issue isn’t that contraception be made available or free or that abortions should not be available, it’s that I don’t believe the consequences of how these decisions will change our values have never been considered. And that’s partly because people value “freedom” to do what they want, instant gratification and as little responsibility as possible for their actions. That’s the society I see, not just in this topic but many other things in life. Society doesn’t appear to be getting happier, it’s getting more depressed, more anxious, more addicted (binge tv is considered kind of funny) and more disconnected to each other. I’m not suggesting this is because of abortion or anything like that, but it’s because we have replaced grounded if not sometimes misguided or bad values, with junk values. You make something easy and we value it less, it really is that simple. Abortions being the go to solution if it doesn’t suit you (even for trivial reasons) devalues human life in my view. If you think I’m saying people shouldn’t have the right to abortion , just don’t respond to me, you aren’t getting it and probably won’t.
lazygal wrote: » Just Asking Questions isn't particularly helpful though in and of itself when it's framed in terms of the morals, ethics and values you personally want to impose on everyone
Drumpot wrote: » Your response has turned everything around agaisnt the church? Why is that? I haven’t defended the church, just said the alternative hasn’t really been thought out.
You haven’t actually addressed anything I’ve said, just basically responded as if anything is better then the church cause the church is bad...
You have a very binary ability to discuss this topic. I’m far right? Really?
I’m going to answer your question with a question. You see no downsides to abortion?
I envisage the moral issues that arise from such simplistic solutions will rear their head in future generations.
That’s generally always happens when humans make big changes that they haven’t really thought through. I havent seen much capacity for reflection from you or the other posters yet that you guys have actually looked at this topic from all angles. I haven’t either, but I’m trying.
lazygal wrote: » Depends on the morals, ethics and values. We didn't keep the eighth amendment because it was a horrible indictment of the morals, ethics and values of the Ireland of the 1980s.
Drumpot wrote: » How many woman who regret their decision or have paid for it emotionally will take part in a study? What about those who feel shameful , are they more or less likely to take part in a survey?I’m not discounting the survey, I’m just questioning how accurate it is. And none of you are actually reading what I write. Where have I said abortions or free contraception should not be available? You are too busy trying to pick out snippets of my comments to prove wrong to engage properly. I don’t have all the answers, I’m just asking questions nobody seems to of considered. I’m in the middle of this debate and it’s incomprehensible to those who see this as an absolute , clear discussion. I don’t see it that way, but that’s cause I’m ok having my views challanged.
Drumpot wrote: » Where did I say to not provide free contaception? So you think when making decisions on how we will progress as a society that affects our morals or ethics and values and how these may change don’t or shouldn’t play a role? We shouldn’t consider any potential downsides to major changes?
SusieBlue wrote: » Are you having a laugh? Abortion has been around since the dawn of time. So long as women are having unplanned pregnancies, there will be women seeking terminations. In the past, coat hangers and throwing yourself down the stairs were favoured options. It has nothing to do with the "on demand generation" and its really naive to think this is a new, modern concept. Abortion has always been in Ireland and will always be in Ireland. The only difference is that we didn't talk about it in the past. I can show you a study done specifically on over 1k Irish women in 2016, 97% of whom did not regret their choice. The most commonly reported emotion in the aftermath was "relief" and "happiness". 94% reported feeling grateful for being able to access the termination. Most studies done on the topic produce similar statistics. Women overwhelmingly do not regret their decision. There will always be a minor few who would undo what they did but that isn't a legitimate reason to take the choice away from everyone else.
Drumpot wrote: » Your own link states exactly what I am saying: Education and cultural values are more important factors then the cost of alcohol. Your response has turned everything around agaisnt the church? Why is that? I haven’t defended the church, just said the alternative hasn’t really been thought out. You haven’t actually addressed anything I’ve said, just basically responded as if anything is better then the church cause the church is bad... You have a very binary ability to discuss this topic. I’m far right? Really? Again another tool used to spoil debate, that doesn’t really answer or tell us anything. It’s you just making a broad assumption based on 2 of my posts. I’m going to answer your question with a question. You see no downsides to abortion? The only downside I see to free contraception is if we don’t follow it up with education and harnessing a value system that is not simply predicated on making everything easy for people and thinking “pro choice” is the only game in town that matters. . I know some people won’t get what I am trying to say, but I envisage the moral issues that arise from such simplistic solutions will rear their head in future generations. That’s generally always happens when humans make big changes that they haven’t really thought through. I havent seen much capacity for reflection from you or the other posters yet that you guys have actually looked at this topic from all angles. I haven’t either, but I’m trying.
lazygal wrote: » You're just posting walls of your point of view and expecting that argument to be taken as entirely valid. Sex is not something special or sacred or precious. It's a normal biological act. Most of us have it, drunk or sober or in between. Making it safer is always a good thing. Presenting sex as something special to be valued and treated with particular care is exactly how we learned about it in our Catholic school classes. The bottom line was always don't get pregnant, not here's how to have sex in a safe way. There's no good argument for not providing free contraception. None.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Irish teenagers are drinking less often than almost all their European peers We still have a large amount of religious control of education, and relationships and sexuality education is where the bad effects of this are felt most keenly. Things are improving, but slowly. Money and celebrity - the catholic church know all about both of those. I'm sure you remember the pomp they tried to create about the pope's visit, and the cult of celebrity surrounding him. The head guy may preach against consumerism but he still "lives in an art gallery" as Fr. Dougal put it. This is coming from a church still to financially compensate those it exploited and profiteered from, including slave labour and selling babies - can't get much more capitalist than those. How is that relevant to discussing contraception? We already have freely available abortion until 12 weeks. Sounds like the "contraception will destroy family / society / our immortal souls" stuff we got 30+ years ago What downsides do you envisage? And it's a pretty far right RCC viewpoint to claim that contraception has anything to do with "valuing life".
The report points out that cultural characteristics have often been cited to explain differences in drinking motivations among young people and that in “individualistic” countries like Ireland, the Netherlands and the UK there there may be more motivation to do so. The report points to enforcing age checks and restricting alcohol marketing as methods that could further reduce underage drinking.
Drumpot wrote: » It’s the same here, people don’t want to take the responsibility to educate children or people, the simple solution is to abort or throw contraception at the problem. It’s the on demand generation that learns nothing from mistakes of the past. There’s little discussion from “pro abortionists” on the downsides and damage abortions can do to people or families. What about as a society we chose to give people an option to make abortions and/or state aided assistance acceptable alternative? Not the shaming of people because some people do abuse the system by having children. But make our society value pregnancy by giving options, not just one simple solution that a person will potentially pay physically/mentally for the rest of their lives.
lazygal wrote: » How is providing something for free capitalist? If my father had ejaculated a microsecond later I wouldn't be here either. Just because I happened to be born doesn't mean anyone else shouldn't be able to access abortion or contraception provided via state health care.
