ISIS people returning thread - no Lisa Smith talk (21/12/19)

tretorn

end of the road wrote: »

hmmmm wuttttttttttt?

so going on your logic only brown dutch people are capable of raping children?

As far as I know thousands of white Dutch men didnt attend a public event to sexually assault young women( Cologne).

I dont think gangs of white Dutch men groomed hundreds of very young teen girls, plying them with alcohol so the children could be gang raped by men old enough to be their grandfathers, see Bradford sexual assault cases.

I dont think hundreds of white Dutch men called Willem took flights to Syria and while there engaged in repeated rape of women and children.

I think women in Holland can go out dressed as they pleased without fear of being groped at and leered at unless they go into no go Muslim areas.

Next............

weldoninhio

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Of course it's the ****ing point. People are saying she's guilty of this and she's guilty of that.

In the UK she's guilty of nothing until convicted in court.

She’s not in the U.K. though.

Folkstonian

end of the road wrote: »

as it looks like she was born in britain, they can't stop her from coming back ultimately. her citizenship has been removed but realistically it will be re-instated and she will be returned to britain.

bangladesh say she is not a citizen and will not be a citizen of their country.

Ultimately no, she isn’t a british citizen any longer. And the U.K. government’s lawyers have already explained the legality behind their decision to rescind her citizenship. It’s not a trailblazing move - it’s happened a few times before and has held up in court upon appeal.

She was a duel citizen, she now solely a Bangladeshi citizen. I can’t help but feel, with some of her fundamentalist views, she might feel a bit more at home in Bangladesh compared to Western Europe. So everyone wins here, no?

weldoninhio

tretorn wrote: »

Its all about racism though from the muslims and their religion teaches them its okay to kill infidels.

Bad and all as christianity has proven to me nowhere in the bible does it tell you to kill non christians and nor does it preach that homosexuals should be put to death.

Muslims are causing huge problems in every European country they have established themselves in great numbers. The first generation Muslims kept their heads below the parapet and practiced their feudalism within their own communities. They refused to integrate so the second and now third generation are now imprisoned within this community and it has nothing to offer its young people. Most of the radicalisation was shown to take taken place in prison as like our own travellers you will find that muslims for their numbers have very high rates of committal to prison.

This is not to say some Mosques arent a huge part of the problem, they are radicalising young people and its happening in this country too.

You just have to listen to that senior cleric in Clonskeagh who attempted to describe Female Genital Mutilation as some sort of a health procedure, what sort of leadership is that when this practice is illegal in this country.

The bible says that a man that lays with another man should be stoned to death, in fairness.

Plumbthedepths

paw patrol wrote:

I don't care for her but the government having (and using) such power is abhorrent to me in any case.

They're had that power since the early 80's just haven't used it much. It's appropriate in this case based on her comments and behaviour.

BBFAN

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

72 per cent of the British public according a poll on Sky news believe the government is right to stop her returning. With the exception of the usual suspects not too many care if she has regrets. If she has I'd say they only came about when her buddies got their asses handed to them. She's where she belongs.

That's not an answer to my question though.

Maybe I'll restate it in case people didn't understand.

Did you consider that she may be saying she didn't regret what she done because she's still over there?

Calhoun

Looks like the American one is also going to be banned from returning home. How I don't know because apparently she entered Turkey on a US passport.

Boggles

Danzy wrote: »

Give her to the Kurds and charge her for her aiding of genocide, slavery, torture etc.

Have them hang her.

Ah, tis the Kurds that have her.

They abolished the death penalty.

She would more than likely be released giving her circumstances.

Anyway their preference is they want her gone.

BBFAN wrote: »

Has anyone considered that she can't express regret for what she's done because she's still over there?

She is in a secure wing of the Camp, basically prison housed with other ISIS sympathizers, apparently it is pretty dangerous.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

They're had that power since the early 80's just haven't used it much. It's appropriate in this case based on her comments and behaviour.

It's not the 80's anymore though, The Home Offices own play book and the expert independent reports they have commissioned, suggest banishment particular in cases like this have the potential to be far more dangerous to Britain and wider world.

Their own counter terrorist chief echoed this just today.

Boggles

Calhoun wrote: »

Looks like the American one is also going to be banned from returning home. How I don't know because apparently she entered Turkey on a US passport.

Apparently it's next to impossible to revoke US citizenship.

Pure Trump, 4 days ago 'Europe must take back all their citizens', today - 'I have banned a US Citizen.'

He really is a Dotard. Obviously saw the populous response in England and decided it would play well with his base.

Calhoun

Boggles wrote: »

Apparently it's next to impossible to revoke US citizenship.

Pure Trump, 4 days ago 'Europe must take back all their citizens', today - 'I have banned a US Citizen.'

He really is a Dotard. Obviously saw the populous response in England and decided it would play well with his base.

Apparently there is some loophole in American law that if you are children of diplomats you don't automatically qualify . However her lawyers say that she was born after her father stopped being a diplomat.

Gatling

Boggles wrote: »

Ah, tis the Kurds that have her.

They abolished the death penalty.

She would more than likely be released giving her circumstances.

Odd considering there is currently 300+ people awaiting execution in Kurdish Territory today .


Are people making stuff up to try shut down certain conversations

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

No one reported the teenagers who left London even though three of them went at the same time. Teenagers know everything about each other so a lot of them would have known this was planned. They seemingly stole relatives jewellery to pay for the flights.

I dont know why you keep posting this as fact. Closed off communities like Muslims and travellers dont go against their communities, its one of the reasons they like to inbreed with each other, thats the most effective way of keeping things in the family.

The Muslims who went on a rampage in Brussels didnt move out of their home area at all, they walked around in the open for months and no one tipped the authorities off.

Begum if allowed back into the UK will don that all covering costume and she will go wherever she pleases and mix with whoever she likes and no one who knows her will report her activities.

he posts it because it is actually true.

Boggles

Gatling wrote: »

Odd considering there is currently 300+ people awaiting execution in Kurdish Territory today .

It's 250 from I have read.

The majority have been commuted to life sentences.

They haven't executed anyone since 2016.

ToBeFrank123

weldoninhio wrote: »

The bible says that a man that lays with another man should be stoned to death, in fairness.

And the last time someone in the west was stoned by a christian religious group was when??

kowloon

tretorn wrote: »

I am now very concerned at the implications of this for Ireland. If the UK tightens up its policies and moves to deport a lot of illegal aliens its more likely than they will end up coming to Ireland than making their way back to their home countries.

From what I understand they don't just line them up at the border in the North and give them a push.

ToBeFrank123

160 terrorists etc have had their citizenship stripped in the UK since 2016. Its so common it hardly makes the news anymore. This woman has joined their ranks. She's a cause celebré for the liberal left. But she is now no longer the UKs problem. One less terrorist sympathiser for everyone to worry about.

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

Grayson and his or her ilk would shout racism and ethnic profiling at any attempt to monitor the activities of teenage Muslims.

this is interesting. could you quote which post Grayson or anyone else said this? thanks in advance as i may have missed it all bt it unlikely given i've read the whole thread.

Gatling

Boggles wrote: »

It's 250 from I have read.

The majority have been commuted to life sentences.

They haven't executed anyone since 2016.

Ah but you claimed they had abolished the death penalty and Its not the first time either you claimed something that wasn't exactly true

end of the road

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

There's a difference between controlling your borders and racism.

Countries like Australia are very strict on who can and cannot get into their country. Does that make the majority of Australians racist? Of course not. They just like to have sovereignty over their borders, as do a lot of people in the UK.

the good news for them is that the uk has and always had full sovereignty over it's borders,it just refuses to pay for enough staff to enforce them.

end of the road

Kivaro wrote: »

If this girl was Jewish with British citizenship and part of terror group murdering Muslims in the Middle East, I wonder if the usual apologists on here would be calling for her to be able to return to Britain.

Not a chance. Utter hypocrites.

oh absolutely yes a chance. whatever the religion, born in britain equals british.

Billy86

end of the road wrote: »

this is interesting. could you quote which post Grayson or anyone else said this? thanks in advance as i may have missed it all bt it unlikely given i've read the whole thread.

It may have been in another thread, if Grayson was replying to tretorns claim that he would never get in a taxi with a black driver solely based on their skin colour.

I wonder why he is upset about people using words like 'racist'...

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

oh absolutely yes a chance. whatever the religion, born in britain equals

In this case = Bangladeshi via UK via Syria

end of the road

Yurt! wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/shamima-begum-bangladesh-citizenship-isis-bride-british-uk-javid-stateless-a8788976.html

"Chiranjiv Sarker, head of dual nationality issues at Bangladesh’s foreign ministry, said the government had not been contacted by Ms Begum’s family.

He said that, if approached, the ministry would need to try to verify Ms Begum’s Bangladeshi heritage through her mother to assess possible eligibility for citizenship."

The Foreign Minister came out quick and hard saying she was nowt to do with Bangladesh.

Despite this, the competent official in Bangladesh hasn't ruled out that she would be entitled to assert her Bangladeshi nationality if she wished to.

I can't envision a situation where the Bangladeshi gov could refuse her if she wished to claim it. Which is the permutation underpinning the Home Secretary's decision.

her not being born there and never being in the country and bangladeshi being her secondary nationality if the above are correct might be enough? we will have to wait and see.


QUOTE=Danzy;109489255]Give her to the Kurds and charge her for her aiding of genocide, slavery, torture etc.

Have them hang her.[/QUOTE]


it's not the job of the kurds to take her.

Danzy wrote: »

This State had one of the highest rates of people going to fight in Syria per capita of Islamic population.

perhapse if they invested in their security forces and resourced them properly, the numbers would be a lot less.

Danzy wrote: »

It may not be long till we are looking at what to do with some scumbag mass rapist who wants to fly back to Ireland.

if he is born in ireland then there isn't much we can do.

Plumbthedepths

BBFAN wrote:

Did you consider that she may be saying she didn't regret what she done because she's still over there?

I don't care what she is saying now, she hated the West enough to F**k off 4 years ago to join one of the worst terrorist organisations the world has seen. Now that her idea of Utopia is failing she is in love with the West again. For all I care she can rot where she is.

end of the road

tretorn wrote: »

As far as I know thousands of white Dutch men didnt attend a public event to sexually assault young women( Cologne).

I dont think gangs of white Dutch men groomed hundreds of very young teen girls, plying them with alcohol so the children could be gang raped by men old enough to be their grandfathers, see Bradford sexual assault cases.

I dont think hundreds of white Dutch men called Willem took flights to Syria and while there engaged in repeated rape of women and children.

that does not prove that no white dutch men are capable of raping children. clearly, some will be, just like anywhere else.

tretorn wrote: »

I think women in Holland can go out dressed as they pleased without fear of being groped at and leered at unless they go into no go Muslim areas.

Next............

so only muslims are capable of groping?

Folkstonian wrote: »

Ultimately no, she isn’t a british citizen any longer. And the U.K. government’s lawyers have already explained the legality behind their decision to rescind her citizenship. It’s not a trailblazing move - it’s happened a few times before and has held up in court upon appeal.

She was a duel citizen, she now solely a Bangladeshi citizen. I can’t help but feel, with some of her fundamentalist views, she might feel a bit more at home in Bangladesh compared to Western Europe. So everyone wins here, no?

no . only the far right and the daily mail types and reactionaries win IMO.
this case is slightly different in that british looks to be her primary nationality. other cases being held up on appeal doesn't mean this one will be. bangladesh have a case to refuse to take her, britain has none really.

AllForIt

seamus wrote: »

Of course it's populist. When is the last time the UK revoked anyone's citizenship? When is the last time the home secretary made a public song and dance about it?

There are objectively far worse people sitting in British prisons - paedophiles, serial murderers - but nobody ever asked if their citizenship could be revoked. The Daily Mail never called for Ian Huntley to be deported.

Sajid Javid did this without any legal consultation. So either he's a dangerous incompetent moron...or he did it because he knew he could get the racists (i.e. the Tory/Brexit supporters) to bang their fins together.

He is going to lose in court. They are going to have to bring her home and try her. They know this.

So revoking her citizenship was a pointless and futile exercise with no purpose except to gain public support.

The very definition of populist.

AllForIt:

I'm afraid I just don't buy this 'populist' argument.

I have just heard a Muslim commentator speak in the UK who naturally advocates for her return. She mentioned over the last couple of days she saw a lot of Islamaphoic and racist comments on twitter. Well maybe she did, but the fact that Shamima is Muslim has everything to do with the situation she finds herself in. It's not like it's some irrelevant characteristic about her in which case you'd have a point if she were being treated more harshly because she's Muslim.

As for solving problem for the UK the choice is bring her back and in all likelihood see her in prison and keep her afloat on welfare for the rest of her life when she gets out OR avoid all the cost and trouble and controversy and keep her out of the country. Both options are have some merit.

However my major problem with having her back is because of this talk of 'radicalization'. It just sends a message to anyone who engages in extreme activity abroad that they know in advance if things don't go their way and they return they will be treated like they're simply 'crazy' and need therapy.

I note Seamus that in your reply to me you quoted one sentence I said which is why in this post I quote the full post I made, which I thought was quite reasonable.

The problem with ppl like yourself who absorb yourself in politics, and pose as intellectuals, is you completely disregard the opinions of everyone else who don't have such heightened political interests and therefore in your mind everyone else is just 'thick', and indeed racist as you have said in a further post of yours, that you claim is the reason for Brexit.

There are objectively far worse people sitting in British prisons - paedophiles, serial murderers - but nobody ever asked if their citizenship could be revoked. The Daily Mail never called for Ian Huntley to be deported.

Terrorists/extremists are far and away more dangerous than those types in terms of the number of ppl they can harm with just a single bomb.

Sajid Javid did this without any legal consultation. So either he's a dangerous incompetent moron...or he did it because he knew he could get the racists (i.e. the Tory/Brexit supporters) to bang their fins together.

You have no idea if he had legal consultation or not. The facts around her background have been reported in the press and there has been many conflicting reports. One I heard is that she was 3yo when she immigrated to the UK and another was she was born in the UK. The point is we still don't know if Javid is in the wrong and this will all come out in the courts in due course.

Manic Moran

Calhoun wrote: »

Apparently there is some loophole in American law that if you are children of diplomats you don't automatically qualify . However her lawyers say that she was born after her father stopped being a diplomat.

If you're talking about children of foreign diplomats born in the US, you are correct, that does not qualify.

It's not that hard to do something which loses citizenship. I wasn't aware of it at the time, but had I stayed in the FCA long enough to make an NCO rank, I could have lost US citizenship.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality.html

There is also a revocation of citizenship by an act of expatriation if citizenship were granted post-birth.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciaton-USCitizenship-persons-claiming-right-residence.html

It is to be noted that doing these things don't automatically result in the revocation of US citizenship, but it opens the door to the process of it happening should the administrative bodies so decide it is appropriate.

SeanW

In some countries, losing citizenship is even easier. For example, in Asian countries like Japan, a person is not allowed to have dual citizenship, even by birthright. There, the rules is that if a person has two citizenships including Japanese by birth, they must choose to revoke one of them before they're like 22 or something. This issue will soon affect Naomi Osaka, who won some big tennis championship on behalf of Japan, but she could soon lose her Japanese citizenship. If someone like that can lose citizenship in the land of their birth, it seems bizarre that someone like Begum could still be considered British.

EOTR may not be entirely wrong when he suggests that the Kurds have no obligation to deal with her. But the British government should hint very clearly in diplomatic channels that if they (the Kurds) (or the Assad regime for that matter) want to put a gun to the back of her head, they are welcome to do so as far as London is concerned.

Boggles

Gatling wrote: »

Ah but you claimed they had abolished the death penalty and Its not the first time either you claimed something that wasn't exactly true

Incorrect Son.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/syria-s-kurds-put-isis-on-trial-with-focus-on-reconciliation-1.6071212

The Kurds have multiple aims in their more lenient approach. They want to extend bridges to eastern Syria’s majority population of Arabs, who deeply distrust their new Kurdish rulers.

They also want to highlight their competence in government and win international legitimacy.

So the Kurds abolished the death sentence and offered reduced sentences to ISIS members who hand themselves in. The harshest sentence is life in prison, which is actually a 20-year sentence. They organized reconciliation and mediation efforts with major Arab tribes and offered more than 80 IS fighters amnesty last year to foster good tribal relations and convince others to turn themselves in.

Boggles

SeanW wrote: »

EOTR may not be entirely wrong when he suggests that the Kurds have no obligation to deal with her. But the British government should hint very clearly in diplomatic channels that if they (the Kurds) (or the Assad regime for that matter) want to put a gun to the back of her head, they are welcome to do so as far as London is concerned.

Syrian Embassy in London is closed.

Besides why would al-Assad do anything to help Britain?