Is it stupid to buy a petrol/diesel car in 2019?

redcup342

samih wrote: »

We get 5k grant and up to 5k reduction in VRT. The normal cars have negative subsidy (VRT) unlike in Germany. I'm not sure how the BPM works in Netherlands and can't be bothered checking but I think their rates are expensive alright. Their charging networks definitely are first class though even before further investment, best I have personally seen. The charging network situation in Germany meanwhile is actually worse than here I think, or at least it was last summer, and prices for charging are sky high. Lots of local city wide networks there that require their own billing or you have to be their electricity customer.

Ireland is quite EV cost friendly really.

Nah, you can have an account with Maingau and plug surfing and you are pretty much covered.

Many charging points are free anyways, you'll only really pay at the fast chargers on the motorways.

Ireland/NL are not really comparable to Germany as they are relatively small.

samih

redcup342 wrote: »

Nah, you can have an account with Maingau and plug surfing and you are pretty much covered.

Many charging points are free anyways, you'll only really pay at the fast chargers on the motorways./QUOTE]

This is going off the tangent a bit but my plugsurfing app claimed that for example in Hannover it would have cost me 28 yoyo to charge overnight at RWE chargers. I didn't feel like trying and ended up charging at REWE for free instead. There were plenty of chargers just that the costs were not clear and/or were high enough.

Anyway, buying a Nissan LEAF 40 and driving it to Germany and beyond was not the best idea ever. Any Euro 6 diesel would have been a better choice.

redcup342

samih wrote: »

redcup342 wrote: »

Nah, you can have an account with Maingau and plug surfing and you are pretty much covered.

Many charging points are free anyways, you'll only really pay at the fast chargers on the motorways./QUOTE]

This is going off the tangent a bit but my plugsurfing app claimed that for example in Hannover it would have cost me 28 yoyo to charge overnight at RWE chargers. I didn't feel like trying and ended up charging at REWE for free instead. There were plenty of chargers just that the costs were not clear and/or were high enough.

Anyway, buying a Nissan LEAF 40 and driving it to Germany and beyond was not the best idea ever. Any Euro 6 diesel would have been a better choice.

Don't know of any RWE Chargers in the center, but I know of at least 3 free 22 kWh chargers.

inMotion and others are available via Maingau (and you don't need any paid subscription for them) .

Charging over night time based (which is what that sounds like) doesn't make sense.

You would just charge at the full 22/50/76 or whatever and then cut off charging when you hit your peak charge (e.g. 80% of an E-Golf) if you are time based

If it's kWh based then it doesn't really matter, but its not hard to calculate yourself.

samih

Sorry, it was actually Bremen not Hannover and EWE AG were the expensive 22 kW chargers. 0.098 per minute, i.e. approx. 6 EUR per hour. So actually even more expensive than I remembered as even if I had gone to unplug at the middle of the night the charging session would have been at least 30 yoyo. And they had pretty much a monopoly in that particular city.

I found another cheaper charger from plugshare but it turned out to be behind a hotel and was offline due to building works.

Anyway, compared to Holland the charging situation in Germany is nebulous to say the least. I'm all for charging for charging to ensure that locals don't hog the chargers for free power, but at the destination chargers (i.e. not fast chargers) you should be able to park overnight without per minute billing. The situation in Bremen was actually inhumane.

wcooba

beauf wrote: »

Electric cars are pretty simple. So what do you think they are doing to do differently. The idea of platform sharing and commonality is not new.

I think we all agree that most of current EVs are just ICE vehicles with different drivetrain retrofitted. Battery tech is just one side of the equation. I'm not an automotive engineer but can imagine of many other things which can be improved to increase range: weight, drag, rolling resistance, energy consumption for passenger comfort etc. There is much more going into car design too - it's multidiscipline science with things like ergonomics, behavioural studies also in the mix.

It's like with any early adopters - early EVs (including current generation) will be obsolete and overpriced by 2025 standards. Anyone here has plasma TV? Or iPhone 1

wcooba

samih wrote: »

Anyway, compared to Holland the charging situation in Germany is nebulous to say the least. I'm all for charging for charging to ensure that locals don't hog the chargers for free power, but at the destination chargers (i.e. not fast chargers) you should be able to park overnight without per minute billing. The situation in Bremen was actually inhumane.

I drive through continent quite a lot (around 10kkm annually). My typical cruising speed is ~140kph, in Germany 160-180kph. What would be the EV range at those speeds?

samih

wcooba wrote: »

I drive through continent quite a lot (around 10kkm annually). My typical cruising speed is ~140kph, in Germany 160-180kph. What would be the EV range at those speeds?

Not good. And the likes of eGolf and Nissan Leaf anyway only have top speed of less than 150 km/h. Cruizing at high speed is a real achille's heel of BEVs which will take a long time to solve. I recently calculated that a 70 liter tank of diesel has about 700 kWh worth of energy and even when an EV has about 3 times better efficiency than a diesel you'd need something like 200 kWh battery to be able cruise as far as a TDi can go. The most expensive Tesla has a 100 kWh battery and original LEAF had about 22 kWh available.

If you spend your life doing hundreds of kilometers a day at high speeds, there are a very few EVs capable of doing that. Diesel will still be the best option for many years for those drivers. "Only buy an EV if the range without charging suits your daily needs."

1874

samih wrote: »

How much encouragement do you need? You get up to 10k off an EV due to SEAI grant and VRT reduction, you used to get a free charging equipment but now get 600 off which pretty much covers the installation cost. The public charging is still free. Motor tax is 120 instead of the cheapest non-EV rate of 180. You get tolls at 50-75 pc reduced rate.

What else could the goverment do to lead the horse?

Just because the State provides incentives to buy does not mean everyone will be able to afford to buy, so great if you can and if you cant?? what then? penalise those that cant afford it? By all means incentivise those that can, but the State knows that the take up on this can be only so much and that only so many cars can be provided, so why the ugrgency to penalise that dont have an EV?

twin_beacon wrote: »

The government is already doing this, there are lots of incentives to buy an EV, yet only 1% of car sales are electric. People pay more attention if they are going to be charged more, vs what they can save. Just look at the amount of people that blindly renew car insurance without shopping around.

EVs as great as they might be, Im all in favour, but it will not be possible to switch over everyone into EVs overnight and not over a decade even.
If you really want to reduce environmental impact, maybe support getting external wall insulation and building standards up, electrified/renewable mass transport solutions, pegging everything on EV when it cant fill any gap, its nice, Id like to have one, but its not economically viable to purchase and the payback doesnt happen for a longtime so again doubly not economically viable, when the alternatives out there are large numbers of EVs secondhand 25% of vehicles on the road, maybe then see some change, long way off, in the meantime put the boot in with taxes doesnt fix anything, certainly not in this country where taxes arent ringfenced, you cant even get a feed in tariff it your roof was suited for solar PV, the interest here is not to be green, renewable its to see where the consumer or the non consumer can have some of their hard earned coin extracted.

samih

1874 wrote: »

Just because the State provides incentives to buy does not mean everyone will be able to afford to buy, so great if you can and if you cant?? what then? penalise those that cant afford it? By all means incentivise those that can, but the State knows that the take up on this can be only so much and that only so many cars can be provided, so why the ugrgency to penalise that dont have an EV?

Depending on what you drive at the moment and mileage per year you might be able to get an EV at lesser expense than you think. As I said earlier I went from a 250 yoyo petrol 2.0 and a previous string of cars bought between 275 EUR and 3k to a new LEAF back in 2015 and the monthly outgoings that from then on included a car loan increased by a very modest amount due to low running costs of the new car. The cheapest way to upgrade of course would have been to buy a diesel 1.2 at 1k, but as I could afford running the previous very comfortable car with good performance, I didn't see any reason to do so but went for a new EV instead.

If you're planning to anyway to get a new car in 2019 in some cases like Qashqai vs. LEAF your purchase price is the same but the running costs on the latter are a fraction.

And finally, if somebody doesn't start buying EVs new in 2019 nobody will be able buy used ones in a few years time. If people stick with tradional cars when buying there will be in a next few years be increased cost to everybody in a tune of up to 600 million a year due to missed Kyoto emissions targets.

V8 Interceptor

Driving an electric car must be boring as fu*k.

1874

samih wrote: »

Depending on what you drive at the moment and mileage per year you might be able to get an EV at lesser expense than you think. As I said earlier I went from a 250 yoyo petrol 2.0 and a previous string of cars bought between 275 EUR and 3k to a new LEAF back in 2015 and the monthly outgoings that from then on included a car loan increased by a very modest amount due to low running costs of the new car. The cheapest way to upgrade of course would have been to buy a diesel 1.2 at 1k, but as I could afford running the previous very comfortable car with good performance, I didn't see any reason to do so but went for a new EV instead.

If you're planning to anyway to get a new car in 2019 in some cases like Qashqai vs. LEAF your purchase price is the same but the running costs on the latter are a fraction.

And finally, if somebody doesn't start buying EVs new in 2019 nobody will be able buy used ones in a few years time. If people stick with tradional cars when buying there will be in a next few years be increased cost to everybody in a tune of up to 600 million a year due to missed Kyoto emissions targets.

As suitable as different kwh versions of the leaf mk1 are, as interesting as an EV is, I dislike to say it but its a bit of a noddy car, alright for some, looks a bit small, Id drive an ioniq as I think they look normal enough, and Id drive other options of the new kia or hyundai but saw one and looked suprisingly small, smaller than a sportage.
At about 20k stg for an ioniq in the uK, I dont have that to outlay, I wouldnt be concerned about range anxiety, but the payback I think thats the problem for many, it would take longer to payback to be equivalent to fuel cost and the cost of an ICE car overall for a good while before you'd break even with most of the outlay at the start for an EV, so in the short term the standard ICE car seems to win out, thats not going to incentivise most.

swarlb

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Driving an electric car must be boring as fu*k.

Tell me how would it be any different to driving any other car... you sit in it, and drive.
And don't come back with some rubbish about... being able to 'feel' the steering, or the sense of 'excitement' you get from having a 'throbbing engine' up front.
The fact is, 99% of people drive plain, ordinary, FWD, bland, boring boxes, so adding a few EV's to the mix wont make any difference.
I'm assuming by your username that you own/drive a Jensen Interceptor at every available opportunity, at full tilt, and on the edge, feeling the hint of understeer, just before oversteer kicks in, and you guide it on the throttle, whilst wearing a Terry Thomas grin, complete with Les Leston gloves, and Paddy Hopkirk slippers....roaring with delight, with a white silk scarf billowing through the open windows.... opened no less, to hear the song of Chryslers V8 (you're naturally an owner of a 'manual'... not one of the many questionable manhood insulting Torgueflights)

Eric Cartman

swarlb wrote: »

Tell me how would it be any different to driving any other car, you sit in it, and drive.
And don't come back with some rubbish about... being able to 'feel' the steering, or the sense of 'excitement' you get from having a 'throbbing engine' up front.
The fact is, 99% of people drive plain, ordinary, FWD, bland, boring boxes, so adding a few EV's to the mix wont make any difference.
I'm assuming by your username that you own/drive a Jensen Interceptor at every available opportunity, at full tilt, and on the edge, feeling the hint of understeer, just before oversteer kicks in, and you guide it on the throttle, whilst wearing a Terry Thomas grin, complete with Les Leston gloves, and Paddy Hopkirk slippers....roaring with delight, with a white silk scarf billowing through the open windows.... opened no less, to hear the song of Chryslers V8 (you're naturally an owner of a 'manual'... not one of the many
questionable manhood insulting Torgueflights)

its probably closer to 80% , and for those its fine. Theres little in the EV sector at present for those who like driving. Those used to a rwd ICE car with 6+ cylinders would find it hard to like most EV's at present.

V8 Interceptor

swarlb wrote: »

Tell me how would it be any different to driving any other car... you sit in it, and drive. And don't come back with some rubbish about... being able to 'feel' the steering, or the sense of 'excitement' you get from having a 'throbbing engine' up front. The fact is, 99% of people drive plain, ordinary, FWD, bland, boring boxes, so adding a few EV's to the mix wont make any difference. I'm assuming by your username that you own/drive a Jensen Interceptor at every available opportunity, at full tilt, and on the edge, feeling the hint of understeer, just before oversteer kicks in, and you guide it on the throttle, whilst wearing a Terry Thomas grin, complete with Les Leston gloves, and Paddy Hopkirk slippers....roaring with delight, with a white silk scarf billowing through the open windows.... opened no less, to hear the song of Chryslers V8 (you're naturally an owner of a 'manual'... not one of the many questionable manhood insulting Torgueflights)

Water John

Not many 6 cylinders in Ireland, EV would still out accelerate them.

Eric Cartman

Water John wrote: »

Not many 6 cylinders in Ireland, EV would still out accelerate them.

suppose it depends who you know, thered be more 6 and 8 cylinder cars than 4 cylinders among my mates , regardless of acceleration thats not all of what a good driving car is about.

V8 Interceptor

Eric Cartman wrote: »

suppose it depends who you know, thered be more 6 and 8 cylinder cars than 4 cylinders among my mates , regardless of acceleration thats not all of what a good driving car is about.

What difference does it make? They're all the same...

beauf

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Driving an electric car must be boring as fu*k.

Has its moments....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6nYdHwgCIk

beauf

swarlb wrote: »

Tell me how would it be any different to driving any other car... you sit in it, and drive....

That you don't place any value of something doesn't mean its not of value to others.

Mike9832

If your spending 30k or more maybe go electric or some pluggin

I was looking at a Seat Ibiza FR 1.5tsi 150ps

18k after scrappage, 0-60 7.9secs, decent spec

Electric isnt going to be able to compete with that money for years

twin_beacon

1874 wrote: »

EVs as great as they might be, Im all in favour, but it will not be possible to switch over everyone into EVs overnight and not over a decade even.
If you really want to reduce environmental impact, maybe support getting external wall insulation and building standards up, electrified/renewable mass transport solutions, pegging everything on EV when it cant fill any gap, its nice, Id like to have one, but its not economically viable to purchase and the payback doesnt happen for a longtime so again doubly not economically viable, when the alternatives out there are large numbers of EVs secondhand 25% of vehicles on the road, maybe then see some change, long way off, in the meantime put the boot in with taxes doesnt fix anything, certainly not in this country where taxes arent ringfenced, you cant even get a feed in tariff it your roof was suited for solar PV, the interest here is not to be green, renewable its to see where the consumer or the non consumer can have some of their hard earned coin extracted.

I think we've got our wires crossed, I'm not suggesting that increasing tax in ICE cars is a good idea, I would be against an idea like that. However, its a case of people only seem to react to issues like this when their pocket is going to be hit.

redcup342

wcooba wrote: »

I drive through continent quite a lot (around 10kkm annually). My typical cruising speed is ~140kph, in Germany 160-180kph. What would be the EV range at those speeds?

You are in the minority there man, most Germans drive at max 130 km/h.

1 reason is just they are tight and don't want to burn more fuel, other one is the Richtgeschwindigkeit in that their liability is increased in the event of an accident if they were travelling over 130.

wcooba

redcup342 wrote: »

You are in the minority there man, most Germans drive at max 130 km/h.

1 reason is just they are tight and don't want to burn more fuel, other one is the Richtgeschwindigkeit in that their liability is increased in the event of an accident if they were travelling over 130.

I didn't see anything like that (yes I'm aware of the 130 "recommended speed"). On my drives through A2 or A9 (most recent one last month) I was going with the flow and definitely wasn't the fastest one.

samih

wcooba wrote: »

I didn't see anything like that (yes I'm aware of the 130 "recommended speed"). On my drives through A2 or A9 (most recent one last month) I was going with the flow and definitely wasn't the fastest one.

And this is the reason why I have speculated why the German makes have been very hybrid and diesel centric as (the latter) proves best for both ends of the scale for German type of driving: EV for Stau and cities, ICE for long cross country trips at high speeds. Diesel on the other hand has a great cruising range at semi high speeds.

But now Porsche and the other VW brands have finally started to both really push the BEV agenda and started to spend money for solutions and future products. Porsche Taycan will be the first EV really designed for Autobahn. Cooling and charging systems to allow high average speeds. Still won't be able fully compete with proper fast cars but give it a few more (5? 10?) years for the battery density to further improve.

Old diesel

samih wrote: »

And this is the reason why I have speculated why the German makes have been very hybrid and diesel centric as (the latter) proves best for both ends of the scale for German type of driving: EV for Stau and cities, ICE for long cross country trips at high speeds. Diesel on the other hand has a great cruising range at semi high speeds.

But now Porsche and the other VW brands have finally started to both really push the BEV agenda and started to spend money for solutions and future products. Porsche Taycan will be the first EV really designed for Autobahn. Cooling and charging systems to allow high average speeds. Still won't be able fully compete with proper fast cars but give it a few more (5? 10?) years for the battery density to further improve.

Taycan is likely to be a VITAL step forward for EVs - the 800 volt batteries and the charging capabilities open up new possibilities for EV driving.

Whats in a Taycan will filter down to wider VAG EVs.

Watch this space as they say

beauf

It interesting how people wouldn't consider 1.0 Micra for working as a on the road salesman or cross continental sprints down unrestricted autobahns.

But mention an EV and people want to use it for Paris Dakar or Le Mans 24 hrs or towing a trailer of sheep to market.

How many people who might choose a Leaf or Zoe might hold off just in case a new Porsche EV could be a alternative for them.

Cut price eUp anyone....https://pushevs.com/2018/11/04/volkswagen-e-up-gets-a-price-cut/

Mike9832

beauf wrote: »

Cut price eUp anyone....https://pushevs.com/2018/11/04/volkswagen-e-up-gets-a-price-cut/

How much?

Over 20k?

Are u mad?

Petrol one is 11k

Old diesel

The point is that people are alluding to EVs almost as deadend technology.

The point about the Porsche is that its introducing a new level of capability to EVs.

No it WON'T be a mainstream car but the capability eventually WILL be.

As for guys wanting to push EVs to their limits by doing crazy mileages - that's been a thing for ages. Fellas into EVs as in Enthusiasts get a sense of adventure.

But people like that are a minority - although many EV followers enjoy following said journeys.

Especially when you are getting live updates on Twitter etc.

From what I can see most EVers just want to do their daily stuff like go to work, pick kids up from school.

If we all thought the same life would be very boring

samih

Mike9832 wrote: »

How much?

Over 20k?

Are u mad?

Petrol one is 11k

23k - 5k here then. And much better to drive than from 12750 in Ireland manual and slow petrol version.

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

The point is that people are alluding to EVs almost as deadend technology.

The point about the Porsche is that its introducing a new level of capability to EVs.

No it WON'T be a mainstream car but the capability eventually WILL be.

As for guys wanting to push EVs to their limits by doing crazy mileages - that's been a thing for ages. Fellas into EVs as in Enthusiasts get a sense of adventure.

But people like that are a minority - although many EV followers enjoy following said journeys.

Especially when you are getting live updates on Twitter etc.

From what I can see most EVers just want to do their daily stuff like go to work, pick kids up from school.

If we all thought the same life would be very boring

I will buy an EV when prices come down, because i am poor

They are multiple times cheaper to run

If i was rich not a chance I would buy an EV

Porsche EV vs Porsche 911 Turbo S

Tough choice :pac: