Is it stupid to buy a petrol/diesel car in 2019?

Old diesel

Skatedude wrote: »

Sounds great, but still need to charge them and most cars in my area use on street parking. I think batteries will improve long before the Irish government can add on street charging for even a fraction of the parking spots. My mom parks 3 streets away from her house as that's the only parking permit she could get after years of trying. extension lead doesn't reach that far.

Street chargers are possible under current charger technology.

I'm not saying electric is perfect or even for everyone.

But the technology is further down the road then many EV critics think.

Water John

I'd say a few are even getting nostalgic for the horse.

Twenty Grand

older i get better i was wrote: »

As things stand our grid can barely supply enough electricity to keep the country going so any substantial increase in demand is currently probably not a runner, electric car not a chance for me, despite the propaganda..

The propaganda is that the grid can't handle electric cars.

There's plenty of spare capacity for charging for many years to come.

OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

Electric wouldn't suit me at all personally. The vast majority of journeys would be ok in a decent range one but you're stuck then if you want to do something longer or just want the option to go further. Petrol for the foreseeable.

I'd say the same opinion is held by 90% of people. I'd love an electric, would probably suit nearly all my driving, but range anxiety would get me.

Water John

A lot of renewable plant is and will be tied into the Distribution System not the Transmission System, dispersed generation.

nice_guy80

If I could put solar panels on roof of house and a battery system in then charge the car off that

That should be the goal of government policy

JJJJNR

You can do that and there's a government grant that covers panels and batteries. What I find amazing is I could run my house for 10 days off a fully charged and fuelled outlander.

nice_guy80

JJJJNR wrote: »

You can do that and there's a government grant that covers panels and batteries. What I find amazing is I could run my house for 10 days off a fully charged and fuelled outlander.

It doesn't cover the cost

Twenty Grand

nice_guy80 wrote: »

It doesn't cover the cost

Why would they make it free?

It's a hefty grant all the same.

swarlb

older i get better i was wrote: »

Propaganda by manufacturers is laughable, to hear a "housewife" on the radio add say how great she feels helping the environment while driving kids to school is enough to make me throw up!

As things stand our grid can barely supply enough electricity to keep the country going so any substantial increase in demand is currently probably not a runner, electric car not a chance for me, despite the propaganda..

It's not 'propaganda'... it's simple straight forward 'advertising'

"Buy our product and it will make you feel better"

All in all, I think our 'grid' does a fine job. It's not as if we have massive blackouts our outages causing chaos in the streets.
Can you name one instance, since the foundation of the ESB, when the 'grid' failed and the country was in darkness !!

Electric cars are an alternative, not a substitute. Buy a diesel if that's what you want, or need, or a petrol, or a hybrid, or a full electric.
It's simply called 'choice'.

wcooba

Interesting thread. But back to op's question - I actually think it's stupid to buy new 40-50k EV now. It still just the beginning of this new era and technology development will be very rapid. Electric cars on sale now most likely will be totally outdated in 5 yrs time & as such worth pennies. Unless there is massive shift towards penalising ICE drivers (unlikely due to points raised by others: motor tax revenue & Irish water history) I actually expect petrol/diesel cars to have better residuals within that timeframe.

beauf

wcooba wrote: »

Interesting thread. But back to op's question - I actually think it's stupid to buy new 40-50k EV now. It still just the beginning of this new era and technology development will be very rapid. Electric cars on sale now most likely will be totally outdated in 5 yrs time & as such worth pennies. Unless there is massive shift towards penalising ICE drivers (unlikely due to points raised by others: motor tax revenue & Irish water history) I actually expect petrol/diesel cars to have better residuals within that timeframe.

How do you explain this then?

https://www.adverts.ie/car/nissan/leaf/nissan-leaf-2011/17266314

wcooba

beauf wrote:

How do you explain this then?

I don't think there is any major technology breakthrough between gen 1 and 2 leaf? Now with the big players in the game (VW, Daimler) I think there will be massive leap forward.

Also new EV prices will be pushed down eventually. I assume in 2025 40-50k will buy you some premium EV like Audi or Merc. Appliances like Kona will be around 25-30k price range.

NIMAN

older i get better i was wrote: »

Propaganda by manufacturers is laughable, to hear a "housewife" on the radio add say how great she feels helping the environment while driving kids to school is enough to make me throw up!

Most adverts are inane drivel.

beauf

You said one 5yrs old would be worth pennies. Yet there is one 8yrs old and worth 7k-8k.

Why do you think the big players are not already in the game?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_manufacturers_by_motor_vehicle_production

the_syco

Cilar wrote: »

With electric cars improving every years, and starting to reach mass market demands with reasonable range (Kona, Kia Niro, Leaf 60kwh, Zoe 55kwh etc), are the pure petrol/diesel cars currently selling new going to depreciate way faster than in the past?

Get a hybrid car. Cheap electricity when can get it, otherwise fuel for the parts of Ireland that doesn't have recharge points.

Grab All Association

I bought a 2.0 petrol Skoda Octavia RS last year. I will always buy petrol cars for as long as I can. I despise diesel and electric wouldn’t be my thing tbh.

I’d love to own a Prius as a second car but it’s the lack of a manual transmission

redcup342

older i get better i was wrote: »

Propaganda by manufacturers is laughable, to hear a "housewife" on the radio add say how great she feels helping the environment while driving kids to school is enough to make me throw up!

As things stand our grid can barely supply enough electricity to keep the country going so any substantial increase in demand is currently probably not a runner, electric car not a chance for me, despite the propaganda..

That's not true, the grid cannot handled unplanned high car charge installations. That's why they ask you to contact them about the installation.

The Grid in Ireland is pretty stable, you don't get many brown outs/blackouts (unless planned or a disaster event like a storm or someone digging up a cable)

Grid can totally manage if it's planned properly.

On the part about being "environmentally friendly"

As we switch more and more to renewables the fuel source for all those electric cars becomes cleaner.

Where as all of the vehicles on the road that burn something stay burning something.

wcooba

beauf wrote:

Why do you think the big players are not already in the game?

Main disruptors are just joining the game. Nissan-Renault annual R&D budget is circa €3bn. Hyundai-Kia will be similar. For comparison VW group: 13bn, Daimler: 8bn.

Water John

Unless any of these are investing in battery R & D, the electric motor plus software is all that can be tweaked.

redcup342

Water John wrote: »

Unless any of these are investing in battery R & D, the electric motor plus software is all that can be tweaked.

Pretty sure the platform as a whole can be a big change (as VW is doing at the moment)

Current VW e-Golf is just a Golf with Electric Retrofitted.



New platform will be totally different although battery tech won't be that different



In the end the cells inside that packs are made by a different manufacturer, in most cases Panasonic.

beauf

wcooba wrote: »

Main disruptors are just joining the game. Nissan-Renault annual R&D budget is circa €3bn. Hyundai-Kia will be similar. For comparison VW group: 13bn, Daimler: 8bn.

Electric cars are pretty simple. So what do you think they are doing to do differently. The idea of platform sharing and commonality is not new.

whisky_galore

swarlb wrote: »

They are afraid of electric because of ignorance, and roll out the same argument each time... "but what if I need to drive from Cork to Donegal, I'll have to 'plan ahead'.. Fact is, daily journeys are probably on average about 100/120 km and even at that I doubt that drivers fill their tanks to the brim every day.
Electric may not be the answer in the short or long term, like Brexit, no one knows.
But the fact is they are here, and offer an alternative. Like most things they will hopefully get more affordable over time, both new and used.
Remember a Late Late Show program from the 80's, when Gay Byrne had the founder of Ballygowan on, and scoffed at the idea that people would 'go into a shop and BUY a bottle of water. Or even further back when the Ford Motor Co were looking for a loan, and the Bank advised them that 'horses were here to stay, and the motor car is a fad'
He was right of course, and the horse industry generates billions each year, but the motor car was certainly not a fad.
The electric car is simply a progression of the Model T, nothing less.

The electric car actually predates the Model T.

1874

Rdwrer wrote: »

You do realise that all petrol and diesel sales are to be banned in this country from 2030? That's only 11 years away. Electric vechicles will be the market leader long before that, because as the title of this thread suggests, people will be extremely reluctant to buy a petrol or diesel as it will have very little resale value.

And we were also set to reach certain emissions by 2020 or 2022?
thats not going to happen, the State pay lip service to these things with soundbites, the substance behind actually doing anything about it is thin on the ground in reality.

rn wrote: »

It won't be our market that dictates when ICE goes away, it'll be our larger European neighbours that'll really dictate when it goes away.
If we were serious about 2030, we'd want to be significantly ratcheting up tax on petrol and diesel, as well as the cars themselves.
We might want to consider the environmental impact of creating brand new machines over keeping perfectly good, but uneconomic to repair, older cars that are scrapped before their real end of life date.

2030 isnt some magical date that all will be well with the environment though, transferring over to building an EV from an ICE vehicle doesnt really reduce manufacturing effects on the environment, and taxing people to enforce change should be limited, its the equivalent of encouraging someone to change by beating them up. I believe in incentivisation, rather than penalty. Manufacturers are steering (excuse the pun) towards producing EVs, this isnt going to occur overnight or even over a decade, Im all for Evs, my driving now would even suit one but my range is insufficient for it to be economically viable and I dont have 20-28k to blow on a car. I prefer to have something relatively normal looking as a car (some exist), but even in a few years when being secondhand alone makes prices reduce (hopefully), an existing EVs range from today should still suit me in the future.



QUOTE=twin_beacon;109437772]I agree, the only way people change their daily habits is when it hits their pockets. However, the last time an irish government tried to get people the change their daily habits, was when they charged people for water, to conserve it, and we all know how that ended! I don't think politicians are serious about the 2030 date. if its a choice of hitting that date or risking reelection, we all know which option will be chosen.[/QUOTE]


This is a typical Irish mentality and an Irish State (Statist) one, how about encouraging people rather than punishing them? tax increases here would not be ringfenced for anything related to the environment and therefore are simply an excuse to punish people (again, Im all for EVs, helping the environment) but an entirely different attitude has to be taken towards encouraging take up.
Increasing taxes (taking money out of peoples pockets) is like trying to get out of a hole by digging. Need a bit more lateral thinking than just tax the plebs, no funny replies of "dig up" please :pac:.

Brego888 wrote: »

If petrol and diesel cars are to be banned in 2030, what about hybrids?

Hybrids are essentially petrol engined cars though, but I think they likely give more consistent mpg or km/lt than pure ICE vehicles, especially diesel (possibly excluding long trips where diesel seems is more efficient)

samih

1874 wrote: »

This is a typical Irish mentality and an Irish State (Statist) one, how about encouraging people rather than punishing them.

How much encouragement do you need? You get up to 10k off an EV due to SEAI grant and VRT reduction, you used to get a free charging equipment but now get 600 off which pretty much covers the installation cost. The public charging is still free. Motor tax is 120 instead of the cheapest non-EV rate of 180. You get tolls at 50-75 pc reduced rate.

What else could the goverment do to lead the horse?

Idbatterim

Free motor tax for a period and improved incentives , by increasing cost of petrol and diesel ...

samih

Idbatterim wrote: »

Free motor tax for a period and improved incentives , by increasing cost of petrol and diesel ...

I guess the government could make the petrol/diesel taxation vs. EV tax neutral, i.e. start to bring up the price of fuel taxes at the same rate the EV subsidies increase. This would make the system sustainable. And add the Kyoto CO2 fines directly to the price of fuels.

Apart from Norway I can't think of any other country where the current taxation was so favourable to EVs compared to other cars. The VRT rates of cars can be quite crippling and so are the motor tax rates once you go over certain limit of CO2 emissions.

redcup342

samih wrote: »

I guess the government could make the petrol/diesel taxation vs. EV tax neutral, i.e. start to bring up the price of fuel taxes at the same rate the EV subsidies increase. This would make the system sustainable. And add the Kyoto CO2 fines directly to the price of fuels.

Apart from Norway I can't think of any other country where the current taxation was so favourable to EVs compared to other cars. The VRT rates of cars can be quite crippling and so are the motor tax rates once you go over certain limit of CO2 emissions.

Netherlands has zero BPM (VRT) on full Electric, no BIK on Company cars and zero Motor Tax.

Germany has a 4 grand rebate at the moment (8 if you trade in an old diesel)
and a number of other programs (they are investing 1.5 billion Euros into E-Mobility as a whole)

https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Content/EN/Invest/_SharedDocs/Downloads/GTAI/Brochures/Industries/electromobility-in-germany-vision-2020-and-beyond-en.pdf?v=3

samih

redcup342 wrote: »

Netherlands has zero BPM (VRT) on full Electric, no BIK on Company cars and zero Motor Tax.

Germany has a 4 grand rebate at the moment (8 if you trade in an old diesel)
and a number of other programs (they are investing 1.5 billion Euros into E-Mobility as a whole)

https://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Content/EN/Invest/_SharedDocs/Downloads/GTAI/Brochures/Industries/electromobility-in-germany-vision-2020-and-beyond-en.pdf?v=3

We get 5k grant and up to 5k reduction in VRT. The normal cars have negative subsidy (VRT) unlike in Germany. I'm not sure how the BPM works in Netherlands and can't be bothered checking but I think their rates are expensive alright. Their charging networks definitely are first class though even before further investment, best I have personally seen. The charging network situation in Germany meanwhile is actually worse than here I think, or at least it was last summer, and prices for charging are sky high. Lots of local city wide networks there that require their own billing or you have to be their electricity customer.

Ireland is quite EV cost friendly really.

nu_90

We bought a Nissan leaf 4 years ago, thought it would be great second car for us. Its absolutely become the main car in the house now. Herself drives 50 miles return to work Monday to Friday and my car never leaves driveway at weekend.

Do the maths, buy what suits. It's not mad to buy diesel in 2019 if you need it.

twin_beacon

1874 wrote: »

This is a typical Irish mentality and an Irish State (Statist) one, how about encouraging people rather than punishing them? tax increases here would not be ringfenced for anything related to the environment and therefore are simply an excuse to punish people (again, Im all for EVs, helping the environment) but an entirely different attitude has to be taken towards encouraging take up.
Increasing taxes (taking money out of peoples pockets) is like trying to get out of a hole by digging. Need a bit more lateral thinking than just tax the plebs, no funny replies of "dig up" please :pac:.

The government is already doing this, there are lots of incentives to buy an EV, yet only 1% of car sales are electric. People pay more attention if they are going to be charged more, vs what they can save. Just look at the amount of people that blindly renew car insurance without shopping around.