Frugality and Irish Society

I don't always agree with Úna Mullaly, but I reckon she got it spot on in today's opinion piece in the Irish Times*, when she discussed Irish people's association with money, and to paraphrase, a tendency among Irish people to act like brash, rich Americans at the first whiff of money, and an apathy towards Governments who behave similarly.

Is this something you agree with? I'm Irish, but for me, waste of money is the most frustrating thing about life in Ireland, bar none. Why are some people so capable of brushing it off? It's as if we've been so long impoverished down the centuries, that money is something we only conceive in the abstract, something beyond our fate.

Do you have this mindset towards money? Do you notice this mindset as an Irish social trait as against the norms you observe in other places?



(*No link as it's behind a pay wall, and the rest of the article is fairly immaterial anyway)

Mad_maxx

As a people, we are ill disciplined with money but then again this isn't a protestant country historically

I love my fiancé but she and her family are extremely poor with money, spend every penny and blame having none on not earning enough, if my other half was on 100k per annum, she would still have 500 euro in the bank. Her mother buys a new pair of shoes every other week despite earning modest money, then complains about the "rich"

Me, I don't feel any pleasure when I spend money on anything bar assets which increase in value

odyssey06

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

Silentcorner

There was one day in 2007 I think...at the Galway Races there was over 3,000 helicopter movements...I think it is fair to say we are no good with money.

Actually, I find Irish people are either end of the extremes...either very brash or very unpretentious!

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

As a people, we are ill disciplined with money but then again this isn't a protestant country historically

I hadn't wanted to bring up the religious aspect, but there's definitely more than a hint of Max Weber about this phenomenon. It makes me wonder what kind of country ireland might have been if Northern Ireland had joined the independence movement.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

to be fair, there was nothing racist in the article. Mulally spoke of a cultural norm, not something inherent to ethnicity or race. You can probably still find the article in your local newsagents if you want to read it.

I don't know what circles you move in OP, but it's something I've seldom witnessed among successful people. Most have a common sense attitude towards money, and aren't prone to ostentatious displays of wealth. Obviously we make exception for the elites that run this country. Frugality is still prevalent, especially among older generations in rural Ireland.

dxhound2005

The same newspaper will probably have some restaurant critic forking out over €100 for a meal.

Your Face

I wish the Irish Times was frugal with Úna Mullaly articles.

n!ghtmancometh

Nah. Me and most of my friends finished secondary just as the crash hit. So can remember what it was like existing off the youth rate social welfare payments. I earn modest money now, but I manage to save a good % of it and only spend sensibly and am always weary of another crash and like having money put away in the event of one.

My brother was a generation before me when the money was flowing, and is one of the negative equity brigade. Bbought a house in Laois at the height of the boom that he's stuck in and can't sell and can't afford to rent in Dublin where he works because of it, but still upgrades his car every year or two, buys expensive brand name clothes etc.

Mad_maxx

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I hadn't wanted to bring up the religious aspect, but there's definitely more than a hint of Max Weber about this phenomenon. It makes me wonder what kind of country ireland might have been if Northern Ireland had joined the independence movement.


to be fair, there was nothing racist in the article. Mulally spoke of a cultural norm, not something inherent to ethnicity or race. You can probably still find the article in your local newsagents if you want to read it.

I would not want to come across as anti Catholic, I'm merely saying that religion and cultural practices often go hand in hand, avoiding frivolous spending is a core protestant trait historically.

Franz Von Peppercorn

odyssey06 wrote: »

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

Yeh we’ve definitely inherited a post colonial attitude to ourselves.

Mrsmum

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I would not want to come across as anti Catholic, I'm merely saying that religion and cultural practices often go hand in hand, avoiding frivolous spending is a core protestant trait historically.

Maybe in some sects but hardly in the UK as a whole. Or indeed Protestant America.

In fact the Catholic Church often promoted poverty albeit hypocritically.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Yeh we’ve definitely inherited a post colonial attitude to ourselves.

But, what if part of the post-colonial hangover is a recurring need to signal personal wealth?

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Maybe in some sects but hardly in the UK as a whole. Or indeed Protestant America.

In fact the Catholic Church often promoted poverty albeit hypocritically.

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

dxhound2005

Anyone who condemns frivolous spending would do well to have a think on how their sector of the economy would fare if it stopped. If people only bought small cars, only drove them when necessary, and held on to them for 15 years, that would result in a lot of redundancies in the motor and allied trades. Only replacing clothes when they wear out. Not a good idea for the rag trade.

And a hundred more example which I'm sure people could come up with. If people can afford it (and only if they can afford it) in general it must be good for the economy. Maybe neighbours could share one copy of the IT as a move towards frugality. Una would no doubt approve.

NIMAN

There are 2 extremes in Ireland.

Those who spend like there is no tomorrow and then blame everyone else for them having no money.

And those who won't spend a cent more than they have to.

I like to think I'm sitting in the middle somehow!

Wasn't there stories during the recession about how Irish were quickly paying down debt and increasing savings?

That sound frugal to me.

Franz Von Peppercorn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But, what if the post-colonial hangover is a recurring need to signal personal wealth?

It isn’t. Ireland is no more ostentatious than most other countries and less than most. Think Russia. Or the US. Or brash Australia. Of the rich Greeks. Or Italians. Or South Americans. Or the Indian and Chinese billionaires. Or the Arabs or Dubai. Or crazy rich Asians. Or the only way is Essex. Did the rich households of the English aristocracy build themselves? Is Versailles a cottage? Is Monaco under stated?

Nonsense. Maybe the Norwegians and some other Nordic countries are less ostentatious.

This isn’t to say that there are rich and brash Irish people but there are rich and quiet living Irish people too. And most people don’t over spend either - we have a fairly high savings rate.

odyssey06

Is it only the non wasp americans that are brash with money?
But then The Donald comes from scotch german protestant stock...

The Brits had their yuppie phase in the 80s. We had the celtic tiger.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

The whole Protestant values thing is a pile of contradictory mush believed by quarter wits.

Germany is fairly frugal though but that’s probably for a different reason. I noticed you wisely stayed away from saying that the US and Australia are frugal

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone who condemns frivolous spending would do well to have a think on how their sector of the economy would fare if it stopped. If people only bought small cars, only drove them when necessary, and held on to them for 15 years, that would result in a lot of redundancies in the motor and allied trades.

one important thing that was hammered into me as undergrads, is that ideology respects no equilibrium.

People don't trade in consumer purchases? Fine, then those transactions are diverted to savings, which themselves are recycled as expenditure. Even within Western Europe, economies chug along the same lines, based on totally different fundamentals.

I think it's possible for us in Ireland to become more frugal without compromising our economic success - by saving more, by combating wage inflation in key industries, expanding our trade surplus, and by undertaking anti-cyclical policy measures.

I'm not saying this in response to you personally, but I also think that the principles of economics should perhaps be taught at an early stage within the education system.

Spleerbun

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?

Have to agree with Mad Maxx, at least from personal experience. You ever been on holidays with, or in and around, British people? They wouldn't spend Christmas, might go out to dinner 1 night on the whole trip, every other night stay at home with a BBQ! Also if those auction TV shows that do be on every day are anything to go by, they are generally just very stingy, you'd wonder why they turn up at all

riffmongous

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

Many of the richest parts of germany are Catholic..

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?



The whole Protestant values thing is a pile of contradictory mush believed by quarter wits.

Germany is fairly frugal though but that’s probably for a different reason. I noticed you wisely stayed away from saying that the US and Australia are frugal

In my experience the British shop around for value more, especially when it comes to service providers, much lower tolerance for rip off merchants, its why the North East of Ireland and donegal are much cheaper for everything, pressure from Northern Ireland

Kerry is about 40 % more expensive for a holiday than donegal

Franz Von Peppercorn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

one important thing that was hammered into me as undergrads, is that ideology respects no equilibrium.

People don't trade in consumer purchases? Fine, then those transactions are diverted to savings, which themselves are recycled as expenditure. Even within Western Europe, economies chug along the same lines, based on totally different fundamentals.

That’s not true at all. Savings don’t flow through the economy, only loans add new money, and more transactions obviously mean more economic activity.

I think it's possible for us in Ireland to become more frugal without compromising our economic success - by saving more, by combating wage inflation in key industries, expanding our trade surplus, and by undertaking anti-cyclical policy measures.

We haven’t proven that Ireland isn’t frugal yet. Savings are high. Reducing wage inflation (except in government) doesn’t seem like a good strategy in a country where wages are not in fact inflating much at all. Wage inflation is what Europe needs.

I'm not saying this in response to you personally, but I also think that the principles of economics should perhaps be taught at an early stage within the education system.

That’s the last thing we want to do as much of economics at Econ 101 level is wrong.

dxhound2005

When I was younger the orthodoxy was that if inflation could be brought under control, everything would be good. It was a time of high inflation, over 15% by times as I recall. Along with that the other great ideal was to do away with the massive spending being taken up by the Cold War.

Inflation is gone and the Cold War is gone, but there are still problems. If frugality serves some purpose in a persons life, then go for it. But if it is only to make them feel better about the world, I don't see the point.

Mad_maxx

riffmongous wrote: »

Many of the richest parts of germany are Catholic..

Holland and Germany are both 50-50 Catholic protestant but both nations are clearly culturally protestant, as is Switzerland

Franz Von Peppercorn

Spleerbun wrote: »

Have to agree with Mad Maxx, at least from personal experience. You ever been on holidays with, or in and around, British people? They wouldn't spend Christmas, might go out to dinner 1 night on the whole trip, every other night stay at home with a BBQ! Also if those auction TV shows that do be on every day are anything to go by, they are generally just very stingy, you'd wonder why they turn up at all

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Holland and Germany are both 50-50 Catholic protestant but both nations are clearly culturally protestant, as is Switzerland

The 19C called and wants its theories back.

odyssey06

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

They must be second generation of Irish immigrants.

The irish times has spoken.

bassy

not frugal when it comes to obesity.

odyssey06

I guess if you are French and already have a chateau you probably dont need any more flaunting...

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The 19C called and wants its theories back.

Sure its very un PC to believe religion has in anyway influenced certain societies but the nordic nations might be the poster children for secular liberal nations yet who can seriously deny their inherent Lutheranism which informs their ways?

n!ghtmancometh

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

, buys expensive brand name clothes etc.

I always laugh at this one. Cheap clothes are a terrible false economy. I don't buy clothes that often but when I do I spend the money to buy quality brands and they last vastly longer than cheap stuff.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

If you had english people at your wedding you will see what people mean when they say they are tight with money, they give tiny gifts.

Blaizes

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

Think you've really hit the nail on the head, great post.

Mrsmum

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

Have you ever been to an English wedding. They are all home in bed by midnight if not before after a pretty frugal day. Compare that with Irish weddings which are now three days affairs.

Calltocall

Perhaps I’m missing the point of the article but I lived for a number of years in the UK and one thing that I couldn’t get used to was the tightness/frugality of many people I met, it was the norm, for me personally it’s a real turn off if an individual is extremely tight and penny pinches on everything, it’s a trait I dislike immensely particularly if the individual is wealthy, fair enough if you’re broke but usually people like that are quite wealthy

When I returned home to friends here who would give you the shirt of their backs if you were stuck a rather endearing trait that perhaps has something to do with our casual relationship with money but I would take it any day over my experience abroad, life is short I would rather spend on my family than watch the numbers increase on a computer screen, I don’t recommend reckless spending at all and that has put many people here in trouble but I do believe there is something in the term you can’t take it with you.

Mad_maxx

Women are more frivolous with money as in the heel of the hunt, its the man who will be called upon to provide for the kids, he might have to move into a bedsit but the state will look after her before him

Ipso

Calltocall wrote: »

Perhaps I’m missing the point of the article but I lived for a number of years in the UK and one thing that I couldn’t get used to was the tightness/frugality of many people I met, it was the norm, for me personally it’s a real turn off if an individual is extremely tight and penny pinches on everything, it’s a trait I dislike immensely particularly if the individual is wealthy, fair enough if you’re broke but usually people like that are quite wealthy

When I returned home to friends here who would give you the shirt of their backs if you were stuck a rather endearing trait that perhaps has something to do with our casual relationship with money but I would take it any day over my experience abroad, life is short I would rather spend on my family than watch the numbers increase on a computer screen, I don’t recommend reckless spending at all and that has put many people here in trouble but I do believe there is something in the term you can’t take it with you.

I don't think it's that that is being criticised but more the over extravagance and 'vulgarity".
I lived in Dublin from around 2002 to 2008, it wasn't pretty. I don't think it was a case of Irish people not being frugal back then, more of a case of believing their own hype (richest country in the world etc).

Mad_maxx

Calltocall wrote: »

Perhaps I’m missing the point of the article but I lived for a number of years in the UK and one thing that I couldn’t get used to was the tightness/frugality of many people I met, it was the norm, for me personally it’s a real turn off if an individual is extremely tight and penny pinches on everything, it’s a trait I dislike immensely particularly if the individual is wealthy, fair enough if you’re broke but usually people like that are quite wealthy

When I returned home to friends here who would give you the shirt of their backs if you were stuck a rather endearing trait that perhaps has something to do with our casual relationship with money but I would take it any day over my experience abroad, life is short I would rather spend on my family than watch the numbers increase on a computer screen, I don’t recommend reckless spending at all and that has put many people here in trouble but I do believe there is something in the term you can’t take it with you.

Kiwis are the tightest people I've ever met but then again it's a deeply Presbyterian nation culturally and the most Scottish country in the world outside Scotland

I find it deeply offensive that so many Irish people think that just because someone is well off, they have a duty to cough up, it's an attitude which is rampant here.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s not true at all. Savings don’t flow through the economy, only loans add new money, and more transactions obviously mean more economic activity.

Where do you think the loans come from, thin air? These days, any loans drawn down by SMEs are basically drawn from personal savings. This lending did not create new money, only the ECB's asset-purchasing programme did that, and it was never designed to directly help SMEs.

We haven’t proven that Ireland isn’t frugal yet. Savings are high. Reducing wage inflation (except in government) doesn’t seem like a good strategy in a country where wages are not in fact inflating much at all. Wage inflation is what Europe needs.

I totally agree that Germany needs wage inflation, and that Germany has not capitulated this point despite many years of pressure. But ireland does not need wage inflation, certainly not within the manufacturing and export labour markets.

That’s the last thing we want to do as much of economics at Econ 101 level is wrong.

Despite all of the dramatic claims made during the last recession, none of the economics texts have been dramatically rewritten. The fundamentals are intact, except to provide updates to recent events in economic history. Most people who say otherwise tend to be cranks with no interest whatever in economics.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mrsmum wrote: »

Have you ever been to an English wedding. They are all home in bed by midnight if not before after a pretty frugal day. Compare that with Irish weddings which are now three days affairs.

I think we’ve been hanging around with different English people. I’m sure some English people have reserved weddings but when I was at my friend’s H and M’s wedding last year it was fairly over the top.

Mrsmum

Compare Santa and Christmas in general here with other countries. We go absolutely nuts spendingwise.

dxhound2005

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

I think I would know if I had a pit of despair or emptiness. It could hardly be unconscious. And I am not insecure, nor lacking in self esteem. Sorry if this does not match your estimation of Irish people as "a group".

whisky_galore

There's a certain amount of a 'keeping up with the Joneses' here, people must have the new car with the new car smell, the bigger dick-waving McMansion than the one down the road, the latest designer furniture etc etc.
You can't be seen dead in an old or a modest house. The wall to wall property wankery in print and tv feeds into this.
Every Christmas has people getting into hock buying stuff they can ill afford because the advertisers tell us we need all this shyte. A live for the moment, worry about the bill tomorrow 'shur it'll be grand' mindset.

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I think we’ve been hanging around with different English people. I’m sure some English people have reserved weddings but when I was at my friend’s H and M’s wedding last year it was fairly over the top.

So individuals are often at odds with the general culture

We are saying that in general, the British are tighter with money than us

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Compare Santa and Christmas in general here with other countries. We go absolutely nuts spendingwise.

very anecdotal, but yes, I agree.

I think we need a Santa index, along the lines of the Big Mac index. Might be a useful measure of trends in terms of household tendency to overspend.

(BTW Santa is real, kids. Go to bed)

dxhound2005

Mad_maxx wrote: »

So individuals are often at odds with the general culture

We are saying that in general, the British are tighter with money than us

And the Scots are even tighter. Like Cavan people.

Mrsmum

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I think I would know if I had a pit of despair or emptiness. It could hardly be unconscious. And I am not insecure, nor lacking in self esteem. Sorry if this does not match your estimation of Irish people as "a group".

You must be very young or something to not understand most people have unconscious wants and needs.

jam_mac_jam

I think some of it is new money. We have never had any money throughout our history so we go mad when we do have some. The example of christmas and weddings, we go mad in comparison to other Europeans. As a country we are very status concious and a bit insecure.

dxhound2005

Mrsmum wrote: »

You must be very young or something to not understand most people have unconscious wants and needs.

I would be quite happy to share some wine and crusty bread with a French lady. Equally happy with sliced pan and a mug of tea. I am a person of simple needs.