Frugality and Irish Society

EdgeCase

The 2008 super-wealthy types were almost exclusively property developers and they were a very small % of the population. Even back in the celtic tigre era, the majority of us ended up investing any spare money we had in trying to get onto an ever higher property ladder. There wasn't THAT much ludicrous spending.

All you have to do is look around you - do you see lots of supercars, or even very expensive cars?
Most of what I see around me in Ireland is pretty modest.

Property here is overpriced and attaining a fairly mediocre home is going to load you with a lot of debt, but again that's not really a luxury. What options do people have? Massive commutes to properties in the middle of nowhere or emigration? So, if you want to live in an Irish city, you pay too much for a pretty bland home.

I don't really see much evidence of any large scale super-luxe shopping in Ireland either. There's a bit of it around Brown Thomas and stuff, but it's not any different from any other European country in that regard. They all have some equivalent.

People do make a lot of trips abroad, but I would also wonder how much of that is driven by access to relatively cheap flights, proximity to places that are reasonably priced to go to and a climate that is, let's face it, a bit depressing, if you don't go abroad now and again to get some sun.

My view of Ireland is that it's very definitely head screwed-on and sane in most respects and I really don't think you're seeing any return to that brief period of hype back in 2005-8. Anyone who engaged in that had their fingers badly burnt and I don't think there's that level of willingness to go into debt either anymore either by consumers or lenders.

Savings levels have increased and are higher than most EU countries and consumer credit has been quite dramatically paid down.

I find this 'protestant' vs 'catholic' societies thing nonsense too. The UK is predominantly post-religious protestant and it's absolutely up to its neck in consumer credit and boom/bust cycle economics. The US is very definitely 'protestant' in that sense too and it's like Ireland in 2008 on steroids when it goes into hype mode. Canada has had similarly spectacular boom/bust housing cycles in some cities and provinces e.g. Vancouver. Finland had a massive crash in the 1990s which wasn't unlike Ireland in the 2000s. Iceland, a country that's historically a socially-democratic with a strong Lutheran culture yet went absolutely off the rails during the 2000s with investors going around calling themselves 'the new vikings' and money was no object and went into a MASSIVE crash much like we did. Meanwhile places like Bavaria and parts of Holland, Austria etc are very Catholic and very fiscally and financially conservative.

The one thing I would say Ireland suffers from is 'island mentality' and a tendency to hit itself over the head with 'only in Ireland' statements that actually apply to pretty much the whole planet and humans in general.

I'm not trying to excuse crazy spending and poor economic management, but I think the article is an opinion piece and that's all it is. The author is just making a comment on society from her perspective. It's not some kind of in-depth socioeconomic analysis of Ireland.

topper75

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Have I gone back in time to 2008?

I base my attitude to money on a number of things.

What the calendar says isn't one of them.
Lots to learn for the Irish yet.

steddyeddy

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

Iceland a Protestant country was the first to collapse during the recession and the richest part of Germany is Bavaria, a staunchly Catholic region.

The UK, another staunchly Protestant country is currently committing economic suicide. This myth doesn't add up I'm afraid.

Mad_maxx

Graces7 wrote: »

Originally Posted by Mrsmum View Post
I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.
Think you've really hit the nail on the head, great post.

Agree fully. Also many who love frugally have no real choice. You cannot spend what you don;t have...

Some people see frugality as a philosophy for life, in my experience most who claim to be broke simply cannot control spending

Franz Von Peppercorn

topper75 wrote: »

I base my attitude to money on a number of things.

What the calendar says isn't one of them.
Lots to learn for the Irish yet.

What you base your case on isn't actual data, which I presented earlier.

If there is any Irish trait to be learned here its that Irish people do like to generalise about Irish people ( the Irish), especially about traits that are hardly unique to Irish people. I think thats actually fairly unusual.

Not that Irish culture doesn't need criticism in some areas ( the rather incompetent political classes and government agencies for instance).

in 2018 theres not much conspicuous consumption going on, the squeezed middle aren't contributing much to that, since they are squeezed.

jimgoose

You pixie-headed f... :pac:

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Iceland a Protestant country was the first to collapse during the recession and the richest part of Germany is Bavaria, a staunchly Catholic region.

The UK, another staunchly Protestant country is currently committing economic suicide. This myth doesn't add up I'm afraid.

Actually, Greece was the first. Greece is predominantly East Orthodox, as far as I know, a religion that shares many commanilities with Roman Catholicism - including Purgatory - the ultimate case of "Buy now, pay later" and a long list of saints which will intervene on your behalf.

Then there was the famous/noxious initialism P. I.G.S-Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. And now Italy is in trouble... There is a pattern here.

Nobody wants to be anti-Catholic, we've had far too much of that in history, and again in this New Atheist period. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if religion has affected cultural norms. It's just an interesting sociological phenomenon, Max Weber was mentioned earlier. He wrote fairly convincingly about this.

Wanderer78

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote:

Then there was the famous/noxious initialism P. I.G.S-Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. And now Italy is in trouble... There is a pattern here.

Of course there is, disturbingly though, those who are in positions of power, are largely ignoring these issues, this probably won't end well!

lalababa

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone who condemns frivolous spending would do well to have a think on how their sector of the economy would fare if it stopped. If people only bought small cars, only drove them when necessary, and held on to them for 15 years, that would result in a lot of redundancies in the motor and allied trades. Only replacing clothes when they wear out. Not a good idea for the rag trade.

And a hundred more example which I'm sure people could come up with. If people can afford it (and only if they can afford it) in general it must be good for the economy. Maybe neighbours could share one copy of the IT as a move towards frugality. Una would no doubt approve.

About the frugality of car ownership: Are there many main dealers and do they employ many people versus would the servicing and repair of older cars create more employment of mechanics?

cgcsb

odyssey06 wrote: »

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

Imagine buying a newspaper in 2019

cgcsb

Your Face wrote: »

I wish the Irish Times was frugal with Úna Mullaly articles.

Hasn't she got a government gig (from the government she constantly rallies against), free money, for being some sort of rights based mouth piece.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Hasn't she got a government gig (from the government she constantly rallies against), free money, for being some sort of rights based mouth piece.

"Rights"! How awful. We have far too much of those

cgcsb

While this might be traditionally true, lets look at the most recent indicators:

Ireland's 2018 budget surplus: €100m
UK's 2018 budget deficit: £24bn

Ireland's debt/GDP ratio: 68%
UK's debt/GDP ratio: 88%

Ireland Avg Household savings: 12% (15% record high in 2009)
UK Avg Household savings: 4.9%(2017 figures)

I think Ireland has changed Loads even only in the past 5 years. The economy is growing rapidly, fastest in Europe, but the Irish middle class seem to remain quite sensible, the mortgage rules are a godsend in this regard. The statistics seem to indicate that the the UK (proddie land to some) just can't seem to control it's spending.

They're funding trillion pound wars in the middle east just to keep up with the Joneses(America), They're paying billions to rent a nuclear missle system that may not work. They're paying through the nose to keep yer man in armoured land rovers to crash into members of the public. They're also building a high speed rail system that includes tunnels through rural areas for the sake of views. They're even spending massive amounts keeping up a student loan system that is extremely expensive to administer and endebts the educated, but it fulfills their idealogical goal of keeping poor people poor.

cgcsb

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

"Rights"! How awful. We have far too much of those

Yes rights are great, but Úna's rights based role, lacks any actual work is the problem.

cgcsb

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The Italians make the really flash super cars and besides, Germany is the number one exporting nation in the world

The German cars work though, they wouldn't spend the money if the function wasn't there.

MrMusician18

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

one important thing that was hammered into me as undergrads, is that ideology respects no equilibrium.

People don't trade in consumer purchases? Fine, then those transactions are diverted to savings, which themselves are recycled as expenditure. Even within Western Europe, economies chug along the same lines, based on totally different fundamentals.

I think it's possible for us in Ireland to become more frugal without compromising our economic success - by saving more, by combating wage inflation in key industries, expanding our trade surplus, and by undertaking anti-cyclical policy measures.

I'm not saying this in response to you personally, but I also think that the principles of economics should perhaps be taught at an early stage within the education system.

Not including the public sector there are we?

whisky_galore

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The Italians make the really flash super cars and besides, Germany is the number one exporting nation in the world

Italians and French hang on to a lot of modest and quite old cars from the 80s and 90s that would have been scrapped here years ago. Here the SIMI, insurance, NCT cartel and prevailing fashion whip people into a frenzy to buy the latest SUV.

cgcsb

jochenstacker wrote: »

And then hire a helicopter and One Direction for the communions of each of their kids.
But I think that's also more a Celtic Tiger thing.

Didn't labour bring in a 'communion allowance' in the celtic tiger era? only recently been cancelled. In 2005 a full time worker on min wage was earning about €250 a week and the dole was like €200, and if you took such a job you'd loose your medical and housing entitlements, never mind that the €50 difference would only just about cover bus fare for the weekly commute. Welfare policy was bonkers back then.

Topgear on Dave

whisky_galore wrote: »

Italians and French hang on to a lot of modest and quite old cars from the 80s and 90s that would have been scrapped here years ago. Here the SIMI, insurance, NCT cartel and prevailing fashion whip people into a frenzy to buy the latest SUV.

Having the year on the number plate is an epic win for the car selling industry. :rolleyes:

"Get your 191"

cgcsb

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think we just be living in parallel universes. I find Irish a lot of Irish people are extremely frugal with many things. It's not unusual here to find people freaking out about water heating and penny pinching on very many normal things. I know plenty of households where the heating is rationed, where all the shopping is done in the cheapest places possible and where there are very very few luxuries.

Some people are high spenders, I don't think the majority of people are though. A lot of people also aren't impressed by conspicuous consumption.

For every crazy Celtic Tiger wedding there were plenty of guests tutting at the extravagance.

Most people seem to spend the majority of their time scrimping and saving to cover extortionately expensive property prices to provide pretty simple levels of accomodation, particularly when compared with most households in say most parts of the US.

I know plenty of houses here where furnishing is cheap or sparse too compared to many households I would be very familiar with on continent.

Also costs in Ireland are VERY high for things like groceries and basic items. It's largely down to the fact that we are at the end of a long supply chain and have much less competitive markets for many of those things due to scale. If you compare grocery prices in Germany or even France, Ireland's drastically more expensive and it's down to lack of choices not consumers.

I think the one thing we are good at, and maybe that does come from Catholic confession culture, is guilty articles about how bad we think we are. Self flagellation is definitely a thing here.

I don't think that's accurate. When I lived in Austria/Germany, I found groceries very expensive, particularly meats and especially beef and dairy. The beer was cheap though. Most other things were the same price.

Franz Von Peppercorn

whisky_galore wrote: »

Italians and French hang on to a lot of modest and quite old cars from the 80s and 90s that would have been scrapped here years ago. Here the SIMI, insurance, NCT cartel and prevailing fashion whip people into a frenzy to buy the latest SUV.

That, if true, is forced by government and industry pressure.

topper75

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Actually, Greece was the first. Greece is predominantly East Orthodox, as far as I know, a religion that shares many commanilities with Roman Catholicism - including Purgatory - the ultimate case of "Buy now, pay later" and a long list of saints which will intervene on your behalf.

Then there was the famous/noxious initialism P. I.G.S-Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain. And now Italy is in trouble... There is a pattern here.

Nobody wants to be anti-Catholic, we've had far too much of that in history, and again in this New Atheist period. But it shouldn't surprise anyone if religion has affected cultural norms. It's just an interesting sociological phenomenon, Max Weber was mentioned earlier. He wrote fairly convincingly about this.

Did Greece get in trouble because they were Orthodox? or because Goldman Sachs cooked their books to give them a leg-up over the wall into the euro garden party? or because German armament manufacturers gave them a ludicrous amount of hardware on tick after talking up the Turk threat?

cgcsb

topper75 wrote: »

Did Greece get in trouble because they were Orthodox? or because Goldman Sachs cooked their books to give them a leg-up over the wall into the euro garden party? or because German armament manufacturers gave them a ludicrous amount of hardware on tick after talking up the Turk threat?

They had to want both things though didn't they? even if they had outside enablers.

CrankyHaus

It's mad in this day and age to see a couple of posters come on and start going on about the profligate and licentious Catholic Irish, supported by zero facts or sources other than a little bit of an Una Mullally article in the Irish Times.

It feels like being in some Steampunk alternate reality where we have computers and the internet co-existing with Victorian prejudices. For tomorrow can we expect a thread from the same people about how phrenology explains the racial hierarchy with skull measurements?

Grayson

CrankyHaus wrote: »

It's mad in this day and age to see a couple of posters come on and start going on about the profligate and licentious Catholic Irish, supported by zero facts or sources other than a little bit of an Una Mullally article in the Irish Times.

It feels like being in some Steampunk alternate reality where we have computers and the internet co-existing with Victorian prejudices. For tomorrow can we expect a thread from the same people about how phrenology explains the racial hierarchy with skull measurements?

The differences in the approach to work and money by catholic Vs Protestant societies has been well documented. It's not a hard fast rule. It's just generalities. So although it's impossible to draw any conclusions about say you or me, it's easier to to for Ireland and even easier again for catholic european countries as a whole. It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the broadest possible sense rather than in a narrower sense.

I do think it affects our attitudes to money, in general, in ireland. I wouldn't class it as the largest contributor though. Other things such as the tenant farmer background, the desire to own land, modern consumerism and a rake of other things are all in the mix.

CrankyHaus

Grayson wrote: »

The differences in the approach to work and money by catholic Vs Protestant societies has been well documented. It's not a hard fast rule. It's just generalities. So although it's impossible to draw any conclusions about say you or me, it's easier to to for Ireland and even easier again for catholic european countries as a whole. It's the kind of thing that makes sense in the broadest possible sense rather than in a narrower sense.

I do think it affects our attitudes to money, in general, in ireland. I wouldn't class it as the largest contributor though. Other things such as the tenant farmer background, the desire to own land, modern consumerism and a rake of other things are all in the mix.

Well documented does not make it any less dubious than any other 19th century theory of religious, racial or ethnic superiority.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Junior Noisy Wall-to-wall wrote: »

If you had english people at your wedding you will see what people mean when they say they are tight with money, they give tiny gifts.

Mrsmum wrote: »

Have you ever been to an English wedding. They are all home in bed by midnight if not before after a pretty frugal day. Compare that with Irish weddings which are now three days affairs.

The English way is better, IMO. A shorter day with less money flung around. Sounds good to me!

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not including the public sector there are we?

No. Because although there is always a risk of wage-inflation contagion, any sensible Government has to be sure that there certain sectors of strategic importance, such as the healthcare professions and policing, are capable of meeting safe minimum levels of staffing.

Church on Tuesday

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The same newspaper will probably have some restaurant critic forking out over €100 for a meal.

That won't even fill you up, but it's all about the experiance darling don't you know.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Me, I don't feel any pleasure when I spend money on anything bar assets which increase in value

So, your house....and basically nothing else? You sound like a barrel of laughs.

There's a lot to be said for buying a round of drinks for the lads, or a decent sofa that you spend 60% of your home life sitting on, or a good lawnmower so you can have a burger and a nice whiskey, sitting in the sun enjoying your down time, instead of spending all day cutting the grass.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have...........Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

Speak for yourself, there, pal. As a counterpoint to all that......how do you explain the "Got it in Penneys" phenomenon? Or the proliferation of Lidl & Aldi? Irish people love a bargain.

NIMAN wrote: »

There are 2 extremes in Ireland.......I like to think I'm sitting in the middle somehow!

Ha!....."Everyone is either A or B......except me, I'm C!"

Geuze wrote: »

Irish friend of mine getting married in Shrewsbury. 8,000 GBP, reception in a castle, incl. photographer and DJ, and accomm. Typical spend here is 20k euro.

No idea where you got the €20k figure from, but if it were possible to get all that over here for €10k people would bite the hand off you to for it. Irish people don't just like to splurge on weddings for no reason (okay, some people do), they're forced into it by the gouging that goes on in certain sectors. I was on the Social committee in my last job and I'd often get quoted a price for entertainment with a caveat that it would more expensive for a wedding.

We're a country full of gougers....Look at the Children's hospital as a prime example. Costs skyrocket once it's coming from the public purse. Ironically, I'd say these are the same feckers who give out about increased govt. spending.