Frugality and Irish Society

steddyeddy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

actually, I didn't mention religion at all in my OP, though it had been on my mind. In fact I was surprised how quickly it occured to other people.

It didn't occur quickly to people as it's been mentioned countless times on Boards before and cited countless times as a reason for economic differences.

Yes my reference to that awful initialism PIGS does only refer to recent years, but picking out rare cases of British or German recessions isn't really an argument so much as cognitive bias. The fact is that the UK doesn't suffer the same swingeining peaks and troughs as does our economy.

I don't think you understand what cognitive bias means. It means holding two opposing views simultaneously. I suggested that you can use examples of countries with Protestant majorities that correlate with recessions.

As I said earlier, it's just an observation, I'm trying to be dispassionate, I'm not anti Catholic by any means. Let's approach this as we would any other data without trying to prove our personal instincts to be correct.

Yes I agree however the biggest recessions in history have been in Germany, the UK (the largest loan from the IMF) and the USA. Despite that I wouldn't assume that Protestantism leads to huge recessions.

I do think we can be profligate with money, especially with public money, in a way that would be unacceptable elsewhere. I mean, a few hundred million have gone missing from the National Children's Hospital, and it has been widely brushed aside by outrage in front of a tiny, peaceful protest outside the house of the man overseeing it.

Yet in America they government are looking for several billion to pay for an unneeded wall.

OleRodrigo

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't think you understand what cognitive bias means. It means holding two opposing views simultaneously..

That's cognitive dissonance.

Questioning sacred Cows

An awful lot of Irish people have no real concept of properly managing money because they never had any until the Celtic Tiger years. Countries that have been wealthy for many generations generally are better at managing money.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I don't think you understand what cognitive bias means. It means holding two opposing views simultaneously.

This is genuinely one of the greatest self-owns I've seen on this forum.

In accusing me of not knowing what cognitive bias means, you've revealed that you're the one who doesn't know what it means. There's probably no need to give a definition, as I'm sure you've just been googling it.

Yes I agree however the biggest recessions in history have been in Germany, the UK (the largest loan from the IMF) and the USA. Despite that I wouldn't assume that Protestantism leads to huge recessions.

Throughout the thread, I've been trying to discuss trends. There's little point in discussing historical anomalies, or outliers (Google it)

This article from The Guardian provides a good oversight of research in this area, and the works of Weber; a lot of the former is available on Google Scholar.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

OleRodrigo

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is genuinely one of the greatest self-owns I've seen on this forum.

In accusing me of not knowing what cognitive bias means, you've revealed that you're the one who doesn't know what it means.

Morto.

Imagine.... Hoisting up your britches, puffing out your chest...about to deliver a great big dollop of sanctimony with the keen edge of your superior intellect......and then you mix up your cognitive bias with your cognitive dissonance and it all goes horribly pear shaped.

Yeap - that'd be me off the internet for some emergency cognitive repair. Might not be seeing steddyeddy for a while. Godspeed to him anyway. We wish him all the best in this difficult time.

cgcsb

Questioning sacred Cows wrote: »

An awful lot of Irish people have no real concept of properly managing money because they never had any until the Celtic Tiger years. Countries that have been wealthy for many generations generally are better at managing money.

So why is the current Irish state better at managing money than the UK? The stats speak for themselves.

cgcsb

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Morto.

Imagine.... Hoisting up your britches, puffing out your chest...about to deliver a great big dollop of sanctimony with the keen edge of your superior intellect......and then you mix up your cognitive bias with your cognitive dissonance and it all goes horribly pear shaped.

Yeap - that'd be me off the internet for some emergency cognitive repair. Might not be seeing steddyeddy for a while. Godspeed to him anyway. We wish him all the best in this difficult time.

:D:D:pac::pac::pac::pac:

steddyeddy

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is genuinely one of the greatest self-owns I've seen on this forum.

In accusing me of not knowing what cognitive bias means, you've revealed that you're the one who doesn't know what it means. There's probably no need to give a definition, as I'm sure you've just been googling it.

It was a mistake spawned from a long work day. I don't think it counts as self owned, however my apologies for misinterpreting you.

Throughout the thread, I've been trying to discuss trends. There's little point in discussing historical anomalies, or outliers (Google it)

This article from The Guardian provides a good oversight of research in this area, and the works of Weber; a lot of the former is available on Google Scholar.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

Yes this idea isn't new but the research he shows has been heavily torn apart. I think you're being very selective in the data you use. You keep talking about PIGS but a lot of these countries spent far more time being rich than being in recession.

You call the recessions in the UK outliers simply because it goes against your theory, not because it of the actual data. The UK has been in recessions in the 1920s, 1930s (great depression), 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and then 2008. You'll notice a similar trend in the US.

I don't think Catholic values deteriorate an economy to the point you think it does (i.e being one of the reasons Spain is in recession). The reason I don't find it compelling is that the far more severe recessions were in Protestant economies. Germany suffered even more than the UK during the great depression.

steddyeddy

OleRodrigo wrote: »

Morto.

Imagine.... Hoisting up your britches, puffing out your chest...about to deliver a great big dollop of sanctimony with the keen edge of your superior intellect......and then you mix up your cognitive bias with your cognitive dissonance and it all goes horribly pear shaped.

Yeap - that'd be me off the internet for some emergency cognitive repair. Might not be seeing steddyeddy for a while. Godspeed to him anyway. We wish him all the best in this difficult time.

ha ha it's an internet forum man. I don't take these things as seriously.

odyssey06

steddyeddy wrote: »

You call the recessions in the UK outliers simply because it goes against your theory, not because it of the actual data. The UK has been in recessions in the 1920s, 1930s (great depression), 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and then 2008. You'll notice a similar trend in the US.
I don't think Catholic values deteriorate an economy to the point you think it does (i.e being one of the reasons Spain is in recession). The reason I don't find it compelling is that the far more severe recessions were in Protestant economies. Germany suffered even more than the UK during the great depression.

Exactly. Whatever merit this theory may have had or not had in the 19th century, it makes no sense today.
I don't even think it made sense in the late 19th century as it doesn't explain France, Belgium, Austria.

DEFTLEFTHAND

cgcsb wrote: »

So why is the current Irish state better at managing money than the UK? The stats speak for themselves.

Apples and Oranges

The UK is 12 times larger.

Ireland, a country of less than 5 million people, (3 mil smaller than London) has a national debt of 198 billion euro.

All Public service institutions are economic black holes. We're not managing well, we're struggling just like we always have.

steddyeddy

I think the reason I find these theories so mental is that a lot of the people that come up with them come from a position of religious fervor.

This is one such blog below and it's absolute lunacy. He states that Catholic countries that are rich like Austria or Luxembourg are rich because they're beside Protestant countries.....

North America is Protestant and rich and the South America Catholic and poor. In Europe, with its nuances, it happens the same. Even in the Southern Hemisphere; compare Australia with the Philippines. If you consult the list of the ten countries with the highest income per capita, the ten with the highest social welfare, the ten most democratic, the ten most transparent or the ten least corrupt, you will see that seven or eight are Protestants. Protestantism generates freedom and prosperity. Let's see now why:

1) EDUCATION. With the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century, the theologian Martin Luther raised the need for people to read the Bible, and for this a great literacy campaign had to be done to instruct an uneducated people. But in the Catholic countries with which the priest knew how to read, it was more than enough. Thus, in the eighteenth century in England and the Netherlands, literacy reached 70% of the population, while in Spain or Portugal it did not even reach 10%.

2) SCIENCE. The reformed countries, devoted to reading the Bible, began to take an interest in the study of the world, of nature and of the stars, inspired no doubt by books such as Genesis, Psalms and other sacred texts. No wonder that in these nations began to emerge scientists like mushrooms. But in the countries of southern Europe, the Inquisition burned scientists in the middle of the plaza for heretics and used their works to swell their catalog of forbidden books.

3) LIE. For the protestants the lie is a very serious sin since it is mentioned in the Ten Commandments next to the homicide, the adultery or the robbery. Thus, in Germany, a politician usually resigns if it is shown that he has lied. In the United States, you can go to prison if you deliver a check with no funds. But in Catholic countries, such as Italy or Malta, it is a venial sin, a peccadillo, therefore lying floods politics, administration and finances and you can not trust anyone.

4) THEFT. In the reformed countries it was clearly understood that robbery was very serious, that all men were equal and that therefore private property was an inalienable right of all men, but in countries of the Counter-Reformation, much more attached to the Old Regime , private property was a privilege of the Crown, the nobility and the Catholic Church. Not in vain did communism triumph in Catholic Cuba. No one would have supported Fidel Castro in Canada.

5) ETHICS AT WORK. While in Catholic countries work is a punishment from God - when Adam is expelled from paradise - and manual crafts have less prestige than intellectuals, in Protestants work is not bad: in fact, Adam was already working in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:15); Being a sweeper is as worthy as being a surgeon and working with excellence and ethically is also a way to honor the Lord. Max Weber summed it up: work, savings and effort.

6) CAPITALISMO. For the Catholic Church wealth is a stigma and poverty a sign of humility and simplicity. Protestantism, on the other hand, understands that the problem is not money in itself but the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10) and that in fact being rich is not incompatible with being a good believer; there are the cases of José, Moisés, Daniel or Job, among others. It is no coincidence that capitalism, banking and business have reached their maximum expression in the countries of the Reformation.

7) DEMOCRACY. In the Protestant nations, there was a commitment to freedom and democracy, and a separation of the legislative, executive and judicial powers. Switzerland stands out, with its enviable direct democracy. By contrast, the countries of southern Europe and the Ibero-American republics were drowned in a myriad of absolutist monarchies, fascism, civil wars and coups that condemned them to poverty and backwardness. The Vatican is still the last theocracy in Europe.

8) SEPARATION CHURCH-STATE. While in the Protestant nations it was sought to divide the powers so that they are counterweighted, the Catholic Church tries until the date of which the civil power is put under the religious one. Thus, Holland soon allowed freedom of worship, in Scandinavia parliamentarism developed and the United States was born as a lay state. On the other hand, until very recently in Spain Francisco Franco was walking under a pallium and even today in Mexico the bishop commands.

9)EMPIRE IF THE LAW. For the theologian John Calvin, the law-that is, the Bible-had primacy, but for Catholics the primacy fell to an institution (the Catholic Church), out of which there is no salvation and which was responsible for interpreting the Bible. For the Reformation all citizens are equal, while for the Catholic Church not only all were not equal, but there were even some who were exempt from complying with the law (for example, with the famous bulls)

10) BIBLICAL VALUES. In short, Protestant nations have bent on biblical and Catholic principles for human traditions, many of which are not only extra-biblical but even openly unbiblical. It is the contrast between the values of the Book versus the values of rites, processions and images. It is the blessing for a people to be attached to the Word versus misery, the hecatomb and desolation that always await God.

POST SCRIPTUM

Catholic countries are generally poor and the few who are rich constitute the exception that confirms the rule. And, interestingly, they are the least Catholic of all. Thus, Ireland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein or Austria are very developed countries but they are thanks to the influence of the Protestant neighboring states. Similarly, France or Monaco are rich to a large extent because the French Revolution and secularism greatly limited the power of the Catholic Church there.

steddyeddy

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Apples and Oranges

The UK is 12 times larger.

Ireland, a country of less than 5 million people, (3 mil smaller than London) has a national debt of 198 billion euro.

All Public service institutions are economic black holes. We're not managing well, we're struggling just like we always have.

It's not apples and oranges. Right now the UK is engaged in the stupidest act of economics in history.

Grandeeod

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

This. Couldn't have summed it up better.

dxhound2005

Grandeeod wrote: »

This. Couldn't have summed it up better.

Have you got a pit of despair or emptiness inside you? If not you can't be Irish.

cgcsb

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Apples and Oranges

The UK is 12 times larger.

Ireland, a country of less than 5 million people, (3 mil smaller than London) has a national debt of 198 billion euro.

All Public service institutions are economic black holes. We're not managing well, we're struggling just like we always have.

Yet, UK budget 2018: -£24bn
Ireland Budget 2018: +€100m

UK public services are the same/worse.

odyssey06

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Have you got a pit of despair or emptiness inside you? If not you can't be Irish.

Finland, Sweden, Iceland all have higher suicide rates than Ireland.
Now I can't rule out our figures being dodgy... but it doesn't suggest we are the Most Empty People Ever.

We do seem to have a lot of people like Una Mullaly, who only seem to be happy telling us why we're miserable.

We'd probably be happier still if we could be left alone to live our own lives in 'honour, decency, affection, in pleasure', to quote John McGahern.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

cgcsb wrote: »

So why is the current Irish state better at managing money than the UK? The stats speak for themselves.

The stats do speak for themselves. Ireland has the highest debt per capita of any country in the eurozone. We owe €42,800 per person -- significantly more than even heavily indebted Greece (€30,417).

With the cost of building a single hospital having risen from an original estimate of €650 million to now more than €1.7 billion, it's hardly a good time to be praising the Irish state for its ability to manage money.

Mad_maxx

Bridger Beautiful Posy wrote: »

The stats do speak for themselves. Ireland has the highest debt per capita of any country in the eurozone. We owe €42,800 per person -- significantly more than even heavily indebted Greece (€30,417).

With the cost of building a single hospital having risen from an original estimate of €650 million to now more than €1.7 billion, it's hardly a good time to be praising the Irish state for its ability to manage money.

Wages here are more than double what they are in Greece, if an economy is growing, debt is less important

Feisar

odyssey06 wrote: »

Finland, Sweden, Iceland all have higher suicide rates than Ireland.
Now I can't rule out our figures being dodgy... but it doesn't suggest we are the Most Empty People Ever.

We do seem to have a lot of people like Una Mullaly, who only seem to be happy telling us why we're miserable.

We'd probably be happier still if we could be left alone to live our own lives in 'honour, decency, affection, in pleasure', to quote John McGahern.

Isn't that to do with the lack of sunshine?

odyssey06

Feisar wrote: »

Isn't that to do with the lack of sunshine?

Norway I presume would have similar profile to Finland & Sweden in that regard and has lower rate than Ireland.

Plus, it's no Club Tropicana here!

steddyeddy

Judging by this thread it's the Irish and self hate that go hand in hand.

odyssey06

steddyeddy wrote: »

Judging by this thread it's the Irish and self hate that go hand in hand.

Slight suggested correction.. its the Irish Times and self hate that go hand in hand.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Bridger Beautiful Posy wrote: »

The stats do speak for themselves. Ireland has the highest debt per capita of any country in the eurozone. We owe €42,800 per person -- significantly more than even heavily indebted Greece (€30,417).

With the cost of building a single hospital having risen from an original estimate of €650 million to now more than €1.7 billion, it's hardly a good time to be praising the Irish state for its ability to manage money.

Public sector profligacy is not the subject of this thread. If it were I wouldn’t deny it. The subject is personal conspicuous consumption. Talking of Greece does Ireland even have that kind of conspicuous consumption as the Greek yacht owners? I hardly think we have a rich set who display their wealth like in other countries, and the squeezed middle isn’t able to afford much at all, except an Aldi special. If there were M&S stores popping up everywhere people would have a point. Where else do we flaunt wealth? It’s not clothing for sure. Cars? Some but not most, it’s hardly Monaco. I doubt if the country has a Bentley. Savings are high by European standards. And we are paying down debt.

As for Greece everytime you post that statistic someone points out that you need to compare debt to income as you would with a personal debt owner*. It’s government debt anyway, and it was low pre recession when we had high enough personal debt but then we didn’t burn the bond holders and here we are.

* On that subject I just read a economist yesterday who said that even debt to gdp isn’t very useful. One is a lump the other is an income flow. You should take interest payments into account.

Franz Von Peppercorn

OleRodrigo wrote: »

That's cognitive dissonance.

Correct. An example of cognitive bias is saying the Irish are flaunters of wealth, getting data which disproves that, and ignoring it.

Franz Von Peppercorn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is genuinely one of the greatest self-owns I've seen on this forum.

In accusing me of not knowing what cognitive bias means, you've revealed that you're the one who doesn't know what it means. There's probably no need to give a definition, as I'm sure you've just been googling it.

But you don't know what it means. You use it to justify your own baseless opinions. Everybody who disagrees with you has cognitive bias.

Throughout the thread, I've been trying to discuss trends. There's little point in discussing historical anomalies, or outliers (Google it)

What trends have you actually pointed out?. You just say "read Weber". Thats the problem with people who are not scientifically trained, its not enough to point to your favourite books confirming your theory, an astrologer could do that, you need facts. The facts are Irish people save a lot. Therefore are more frugal than people who do not.

This article from The Guardian provides a good oversight of research in this area, and the works of Weber; a lot of the former is available on Google Scholar.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

A good rebuttal here:

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/12/11099/

One of the obvious problems with Weber is that Europe started to be commercial long before protestantism and in Catholic countries - northern Italy is an example, and in pre protestant Northern Europe.

If protestantism is needed for capitalism we wouldn't expect it to succeed anywhere that isn't protestant, and we would expect all protestant nations to be small government now, is that true of Protestant Northern Europe? Sweden? Norway?

And Weber didn't really talk about frugality, except to say that frugality was an initial connotation with protestantism but not a latter one, which is one thing he is correct on: why anybody would think the US is frugal is beyond me.

Pac1Man

What percentage of people would you guess have car loans?

The amount of big 50k+ German execs I see every day is staggering. That's an incredible amount of money.

Are people taking out mini mortgages on their cars or am I just poor as fuk thinking fifty grand is a lot.

Viscount Aggro

People think the good times will keep getting gooder. I am cautiously pessimistic in life - that way, I am never disappointed.

Lets see how the 50K+ car goes, when one or other spouse loses job, or one half is diagnosed with motor neuron disease.

Tell ye the one thing that will not go out of fashion.... cash.

steddyeddy

So the take away message from this thread is that the theory is Catholic countries can't manage their economies because of the recent recession. Obviously we should ignore the recessions in Protestant countries (the biggest in history) because they're in opposition to the theory.

4ensic15

Agricola wrote: »

I honestly don't think an Irish person exists who, with the means at their disposal, would take this approach to home improvement. Without fail, we'd throw money at it and get it done asap. Because most of us don't take pride in doing something ourselves or saving money, we take pride in having the money to pay someone else to do it really quickly!

There is a house in Kenilworth Square in Harolds Cross. The owner, who owns about 30 houses in flats around Dublin 6, has never employed anyone to work on it. He is making his children do the renovation work and has made it clear to them that their share of his estate will be in proportion to the effort they put in to working on the house.