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Frugality and Irish Society

[Deleted User]

I don't always agree with Úna Mullaly, but I reckon she got it spot on in today's opinion piece in the Irish Times*, when she discussed Irish people's association with money, and to paraphrase, a tendency among Irish people to act like brash, rich Americans at the first whiff of money, and an apathy towards Governments who behave similarly.

Is this something you agree with? I'm Irish, but for me, waste of money is the most frustrating thing about life in Ireland, bar none. Why are some people so capable of brushing it off? It's as if we've been so long impoverished down the centuries, that money is something we only conceive in the abstract, something beyond our fate.

Do you have this mindset towards money? Do you notice this mindset as an Irish social trait as against the norms you observe in other places?

(*No link as it's behind a pay wall, and the rest of the article is fairly immaterial anyway)

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Mad_maxx

As a people, we are ill disciplined with money but then again this isn't a protestant country historically

I love my fiancé but she and her family are extremely poor with money, spend every penny and blame having none on not earning enough, if my other half was on 100k per annum, she would still have 500 euro in the bank. Her mother buys a new pair of shoes every other week despite earning modest money, then complains about the "rich"

Me, I don't feel any pleasure when I spend money on anything bar assets which increase in value

odyssey06

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

Silentcorner

There was one day in 2007 I think...at the Galway Races there was over 3,000 helicopter movements...I think it is fair to say we are no good with money.

Actually, I find Irish people are either end of the extremes...either very brash or very unpretentious!

[Deleted User]

Mad_maxx wrote: »

As a people, we are ill disciplined with money but then again this isn't a protestant country historically

I hadn't wanted to bring up the religious aspect, but there's definitely more than a hint of Max Weber about this phenomenon. It makes me wonder what kind of country ireland might have been if Northern Ireland had joined the independence movement.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

to be fair, there was nothing racist in the article. Mulally spoke of a cultural norm, not something inherent to ethnicity or race. You can probably still find the article in your local newsagents if you want to read it.

[Deleted User]

I don't know what circles you move in OP, but it's something I've seldom witnessed among successful people. Most have a common sense attitude towards money, and aren't prone to ostentatious displays of wealth. Obviously we make exception for the elites that run this country. Frugality is still prevalent, especially among older generations in rural Ireland.

dxhound2005

The same newspaper will probably have some restaurant critic forking out over €100 for a meal.

Your Face

I wish the Irish Times was frugal with Úna Mullaly articles.

n!ghtmancometh

Nah. Me and most of my friends finished secondary just as the crash hit. So can remember what it was like existing off the youth rate social welfare payments. I earn modest money now, but I manage to save a good % of it and only spend sensibly and am always weary of another crash and like having money put away in the event of one.

My brother was a generation before me when the money was flowing, and is one of the negative equity brigade. Bbought a house in Laois at the height of the boom that he's stuck in and can't sell and can't afford to rent in Dublin where he works because of it, but still upgrades his car every year or two, buys expensive brand name clothes etc.

Mad_maxx

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I hadn't wanted to bring up the religious aspect, but there's definitely more than a hint of Max Weber about this phenomenon. It makes me wonder what kind of country ireland might have been if Northern Ireland had joined the independence movement.

to be fair, there was nothing racist in the article. Mulally spoke of a cultural norm, not something inherent to ethnicity or race. You can probably still find the article in your local newsagents if you want to read it.

I would not want to come across as anti Catholic, I'm merely saying that religion and cultural practices often go hand in hand, avoiding frivolous spending is a core protestant trait historically.

Franz Von Peppercorn

odyssey06 wrote: »

Gotta love irish times casual racism and complaints about people who dont buy the irish times having a few bob. You know those dreadful people who buy the independent or the sun.

Yeh we’ve definitely inherited a post colonial attitude to ourselves.

Mrsmum

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

I would not want to come across as anti Catholic, I'm merely saying that religion and cultural practices often go hand in hand, avoiding frivolous spending is a core protestant trait historically.

Maybe in some sects but hardly in the UK as a whole. Or indeed Protestant America.

In fact the Catholic Church often promoted poverty albeit hypocritically.

[Deleted User]

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Yeh we’ve definitely inherited a post colonial attitude to ourselves.

But, what if part of the post-colonial hangover is a recurring need to signal personal wealth?

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Maybe in some sects but hardly in the UK as a whole. Or indeed Protestant America.

In fact the Catholic Church often promoted poverty albeit hypocritically.

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

dxhound2005

Anyone who condemns frivolous spending would do well to have a think on how their sector of the economy would fare if it stopped. If people only bought small cars, only drove them when necessary, and held on to them for 15 years, that would result in a lot of redundancies in the motor and allied trades. Only replacing clothes when they wear out. Not a good idea for the rag trade.

And a hundred more example which I'm sure people could come up with. If people can afford it (and only if they can afford it) in general it must be good for the economy. Maybe neighbours could share one copy of the IT as a move towards frugality. Una would no doubt approve.

NIMAN

There are 2 extremes in Ireland.

Those who spend like there is no tomorrow and then blame everyone else for them having no money.

And those who won't spend a cent more than they have to.

I like to think I'm sitting in the middle somehow!

Wasn't there stories during the recession about how Irish were quickly paying down debt and increasing savings?

That sound frugal to me.

Franz Von Peppercorn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But, what if the post-colonial hangover is a recurring need to signal personal wealth?

It isn’t. Ireland is no more ostentatious than most other countries and less than most. Think Russia. Or the US. Or brash Australia. Of the rich Greeks. Or Italians. Or South Americans. Or the Indian and Chinese billionaires. Or the Arabs or Dubai. Or crazy rich Asians. Or the only way is Essex. Did the rich households of the English aristocracy build themselves? Is Versailles a cottage? Is Monaco under stated?

Nonsense. Maybe the Norwegians and some other Nordic countries are less ostentatious.

This isn’t to say that there are rich and brash Irish people but there are rich and quiet living Irish people too. And most people don’t over spend either - we have a fairly high savings rate.

odyssey06

Is it only the non wasp americans that are brash with money?
But then The Donald comes from scotch german protestant stock...

The Brits had their yuppie phase in the 80s. We had the celtic tiger.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

The whole Protestant values thing is a pile of contradictory mush believed by quarter wits.

Germany is fairly frugal though but that’s probably for a different reason. I noticed you wisely stayed away from saying that the US and Australia are frugal

[Deleted User]

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone who condemns frivolous spending would do well to have a think on how their sector of the economy would fare if it stopped. If people only bought small cars, only drove them when necessary, and held on to them for 15 years, that would result in a lot of redundancies in the motor and allied trades.

one important thing that was hammered into me as undergrads, is that ideology respects no equilibrium.

People don't trade in consumer purchases? Fine, then those transactions are diverted to savings, which themselves are recycled as expenditure. Even within Western Europe, economies chug along the same lines, based on totally different fundamentals.

I think it's possible for us in Ireland to become more frugal without compromising our economic success - by saving more, by combating wage inflation in key industries, expanding our trade surplus, and by undertaking anti-cyclical policy measures.

I'm not saying this in response to you personally, but I also think that the principles of economics should perhaps be taught at an early stage within the education system.

Spleerbun

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?

Have to agree with Mad Maxx, at least from personal experience. You ever been on holidays with, or in and around, British people? They wouldn't spend Christmas, might go out to dinner 1 night on the whole trip, every other night stay at home with a BBQ! Also if those auction TV shows that do be on every day are anything to go by, they are generally just very stingy, you'd wonder why they turn up at all

[Deleted User]

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Brits are very tight with money by comparison to us as are kiwis, another protestant country

It's irrelevant that the UK or New Zealand or Germany etc are secular, there cultures are influenced historically by protestant values

Many of the richest parts of germany are Catholic..

Mad_maxx

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No they aren’t. Have you ever lived in rich parts of the U.K.?

The whole Protestant values thing is a pile of contradictory mush believed by quarter wits.

Germany is fairly frugal though but that’s probably for a different reason. I noticed you wisely stayed away from saying that the US and Australia are frugal

In my experience the British shop around for value more, especially when it comes to service providers, much lower tolerance for rip off merchants, its why the North East of Ireland and donegal are much cheaper for everything, pressure from Northern Ireland

Kerry is about 40 % more expensive for a holiday than donegal

Franz Von Peppercorn

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

one important thing that was hammered into me as undergrads, is that ideology respects no equilibrium.

People don't trade in consumer purchases? Fine, then those transactions are diverted to savings, which themselves are recycled as expenditure. Even within Western Europe, economies chug along the same lines, based on totally different fundamentals.

That’s not true at all. Savings don’t flow through the economy, only loans add new money, and more transactions obviously mean more economic activity.

I think it's possible for us in Ireland to become more frugal without compromising our economic success - by saving more, by combating wage inflation in key industries, expanding our trade surplus, and by undertaking anti-cyclical policy measures.

We haven’t proven that Ireland isn’t frugal yet. Savings are high. Reducing wage inflation (except in government) doesn’t seem like a good strategy in a country where wages are not in fact inflating much at all. Wage inflation is what Europe needs.

I'm not saying this in response to you personally, but I also think that the principles of economics should perhaps be taught at an early stage within the education system.

That’s the last thing we want to do as much of economics at Econ 101 level is wrong.

dxhound2005

When I was younger the orthodoxy was that if inflation could be brought under control, everything would be good. It was a time of high inflation, over 15% by times as I recall. Along with that the other great ideal was to do away with the massive spending being taken up by the Cold War.

Inflation is gone and the Cold War is gone, but there are still problems. If frugality serves some purpose in a persons life, then go for it. But if it is only to make them feel better about the world, I don't see the point.

Mad_maxx

riffmongous wrote: »

Many of the richest parts of germany are Catholic..

Holland and Germany are both 50-50 Catholic protestant but both nations are clearly culturally protestant, as is Switzerland

Franz Von Peppercorn

Spleerbun wrote: »

Have to agree with Mad Maxx, at least from personal experience. You ever been on holidays with, or in and around, British people? They wouldn't spend Christmas, might go out to dinner 1 night on the whole trip, every other night stay at home with a BBQ! Also if those auction TV shows that do be on every day are anything to go by, they are generally just very stingy, you'd wonder why they turn up at all

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Holland and Germany are both 50-50 Catholic protestant but both nations are clearly culturally protestant, as is Switzerland

The 19C called and wants its theories back.

odyssey06

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I’ve lived with English people in England. They’re quite happy flaunting wealth.

They must be second generation of Irish immigrants.

The irish times has spoken.

bassy

not frugal when it comes to obesity.