Congress 2019

Gael85

seligehgit wrote: »

I'd imagine a bit of both.:)


Croke Park could use the health and safety criteria in a cynical fashion to determine venues.

TBF it's a complex issue,there will still be games where demand exceeds capacity in certain home venues and there are likely to be real live health and safety issues.Yet nobody wants to give up home advantage as we learned to our cost last year.

When I first caught sight of motion 23 I thought it might try to address all the shadow boxing in naming teams pre games.

That motion re Valentina club who were promoted last year is interesting.

I believe they've only 12 or 13 adult players and are seeking under 17s to be allowed play for the senior club.A welfare issue versus the stark reality of dwindling numbers available to field teams in rural Ireland.

How did the Valentia motion go?

ToBeFrank123

Bonniedog wrote: »

Furthermore, as far back as November, they had discussions on this with Donegal so they could in fact have proposed a motion specifically at use of CP by Dublin as "neutral" venue.

Why didn't they?

Who knows? I'm guessing there is always an implicit threat from the GAA that if you take Dublin out of Croke Park for any game, it means less money going to everyone else. It becomes a case of Croker or nowhere. It just underlines how the sport is now dominated by money and greed to a large extent. And lets not forget all the expenses that go to county officials and the likes. This has to be paid somehow. Its all a catch 22. Smaller Leinster counties need Dublin to be strong to fund them. But Dublin being strong means these lesser counties haven't a hope of catching up. So the Leinster Championship continues to be a farce.

What difference would it make if Dublin could then nominate CP as home venue rather than Parnell? Does anyone think they have a better chance of beating Dublin in Parnell than in Croke Park?

Only impact of a Parnell game would be 12,000 instead of maybe 50,000 if it was game against Mayo for example. Certainly more than 30,000 no matter who it was.

Kildare clearly had a better chance of beating Mayo in Newbridge than in Croker or so they felt. Had it been played in Croke Park, Mayo could have attracted up to 20,000 from fans based in Mayo and in Dublin. And Mayo usually do well in Croker in the championship. Kildare were well within their rights and it was a home venue, so venue does count for something.

I think the main thing here is that for the neutral super 8 game, teams like Donegal have to travel a long way as do their supporters. Dublin on the otherhand have it in their backyard, and can afford to rest and prepare longer. There is a definite advantage to that.

RedDevil55

Bonniedog wrote: »

Furthermore, as far back as November, they had discussions on this with Donegal so they could in fact have proposed a motion specifically at use of CP by Dublin as "neutral" venue.

Why didn't they?

They probably thought it would be a harder motion to get through. They would have to convince people that the national stadium cannot be considered neutral for 1 team. It would make a bit of a farce of the competition if that passed in fairness. Even though they would be correct.

Bonniedog

RMAOK wrote: »

Unfortunately yes.

Really bad decision. Surrendering a whole month where GAA is the dominant sport in the media - despite RTE's obsession with the EPL soap opera - makes no sense.

The argument regarding more time for clubs was proven last year to be a red herring. Made no difference and in any event September only involved four senior counties.

Barlett

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

threeball

Barlett wrote: »

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

Hopefully we'll see another massive drop in attendances this year as the only thing that gets CP's attention is a loss of revenue. When it really starts to hit home maybe then they'll start to take notice. So hopefully everyone is so bored of the sneaky dealings and crap matches that they just don't bother their hoop and go to the beach instead.

Fann Linn

Barlett wrote: »

Well if this year's Super Eights are anything like last years I think we'll all be hoping for a return to the old system. Who wants to watch games in an empty Croke Park?

On the Croke Park issue, I don't see why Thurles, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Limerick couldn't be used as a neutral venue depending on Dublin's opponents. I mean if the main argument is fans missing out, sure they could easily travel there. Keeping all the games in Croke Park is purely motivated by money and it will come at the expense of the Championship in the long term.

Agree fully with all of that, and you could include Portlaoise and/or Tullamore along with all of the above and let HQ decide who plays where at a designated neutral venue.
Kinda like the way the Euros are held in soccer.

castletownman

By the GAA's logic, supply and demand be damned. How many people want to go see Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea across the channel on a weekly basis during the season, yet can't as there are limited tickets available? Same goes for most stadium-based sports across the globe. Heck, I say the ratio between people who dream of going to the Masters compared to the lucky few who actually get to go is massive. The same economic system affects Broadway/West End/Electric Picnic etc.

Whatever the kerfuffle surrounding it, the Kildare-Mayo game was arguably the most atmospheric of the championship last year, and certainly trumped the cavernous environs of Croker for most of Dublin's games up to the final. Playing two games in the same venue that you know like the back of your hand in what is a knockout mini-tournament is an unfair advantage, no matter what way it is construed. It would be like allowing Liverpool play only home games in the CL knock-out stages.

This isn't an issue of wording. It's an issue of the GAA not wanting to cut off the hand that feeds it.

Dots1982

castletownman wrote: »

By the GAA's logic, supply and demand be damned. How many people want to go see Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea across the channel on a weekly basis during the season, yet can't as there are limited tickets available? Same goes for most stadium-based sports across the globe. Heck, I say the ratio between people who dream of going to the Masters compared to the lucky few who actually get to go is massive. The same economic system affects Broadway/West End/Electric Picnic etc.

Whatever the kerfuffle surrounding it, the Kildare-Mayo game was arguably the most atmospheric of the championship last year, and certainly trumped the cavernous environs of Croker for most of Dublin's games up to the final. Playing two games in the same venue that you know like the back of your hand in what is a knockout mini-tournament is an unfair advantage, no matter what way it is construed. It would be like allowing Liverpool play only home games in the CL knock-out stages.

This isn't an issue of wording. It's an issue of the GAA not wanting to cut off the hand that feeds it.

Nah, it wasn’t an issue with the wording. It was the motion would have had Dublin playing in Parnell Park in the championship. They haven’t done that since I think 2004 when they played London. You can’t play big championship games involving Dublin in Parnell. It was a daft motion.

doc_17

As as Dublin are looked after who gives a f**k about anyone else.

Dots1982

Dots1982 wrote: »

Nah, it wasn’t an issue with the wording. It was the motion would have had Dublin playing in Parnell Park in the championship. They haven’t done that since I think 2004 when they played London. You can’t play big championship games involving Dublin in Parnell. It was a daft motion.

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Dots1982

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Grand, build a stadium, it’ll be ready in 3 years and cost about 200 million. Still not going to be ready for this year hence Parnell Park is the only option they could play at this year and that is too small and so isn’t an option.

threeball

Every team should be made declare a home stadium at the start of the year and that is where their home league games and any other home matches throughout the year. Then there will be no dispute when it comes to whats neutral and whats home. No bullsh1t motions needed at congress either.

howiya

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Yes you can.

Its their own fault that they don't have a proper stadium.

Let them take some of the millions they're taking in and build one.

No incentive with the status quo anyway since they've been allowed claim HQ.

Fast forward to when this new stadium is built, what do you propose using Croke Park for? More concerts?

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair and can be fixed with a simple rule change. The answer isn't another stadium in Dublin.

Bonniedog

howiya wrote: »

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair

Life is unfair, sport is unfair.

Same teams have been consistently excelling at hurling and/or football for 130 years, with some exceptions, and with some of the leading counties enduring periods of dominance or mediocrity. Dublin are in good period at moment but other bad periods will follow. Kilkenny and Kerry went for ten years or so without AIs, and Cork hurlers are in similar stage at moment but none of them ever gave up. That's why they will always be there.

Some counties just don't have that same tradition or interest or desire to succeed. How do you fix that? When Kildare were good under Dwyer they had piles of money thrown at them and did not win an AI. Then the money disappeared back into horses.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

Life is unfair, sport is unfair.

Same teams have been consistently excelling at hurling and/or football for 130 years, with some exceptions, and with some of the leading counties enduring periods of dominance or mediocrity. Dublin are in good period at moment but other bad periods will follow. Kilkenny and Kerry went for ten years or so without AIs, and Cork hurlers are in similar stage at moment but none of them ever gave up. That's why they will always be there.

Some counties just don't have that same tradition or interest or desire to succeed. How do you fix that? When Kildare were good under Dwyer they had piles of money thrown at them and did not win an AI. Then the money disappeared back into horses.

The money available to kildare at that time was chickenfeed compared to whats available to Dublin yet they nearly won an all ireland. Yet you consistently claim that money doesn't make a difference. Now which is it? A county with no tradition, gets limited funds and almost wins for the first time in 90 years. A team with huge tradition, gets monstrous funding and wins 4 in a row and what, 6 in 7 years? Hardly a debate so is it.

Dots1982

howiya wrote: »

The set up of the Super 8s is completely unfair.

The setup is unfair and has been for quite some time. The answer is simple. Be a shoe heel and go on supporting national GAA and the completely flawed system they have organized or support your local GAA club, support LOI football, get your sporting fix elsewhere and maybe when things get straightened out in a few years come back to intercounty GAA.

Bonniedog

threeball wrote: »

The money available to kildare at that time was chickenfeed compared to whats available to Dublin yet they nearly won an all ireland. Yet you consistently claim that money doesn't make a difference. Now which is it? A county with no tradition, gets limited funds and almost wins for the first time in 90 years. A team with huge tradition, gets monstrous funding and wins 4 in a row and what, 6 in 7 years? Hardly a debate so is it.

You are actually proving my point! Kildare had huge money - also have great football tradition in fairness - and it did not get them over the line because they came up against a great Galway team mostly.

It was fly by night money from glory hunters used to buying Derbies and if you think it was "chicken feed" you know nothing about it!!! none of them had any interest in developing the county long term. That is being done now and Kildare are more than competitive at underage with Dublin in football, and have makings of a decent hurling set up as well although probably it will lose out with greater emphasis on football.

another county that is using its money wisely rather than building white elephants.

howiya

Dots1982 wrote: »

The setup is unfair and has been for quite some time. The answer is simple. Be a shoe heel and go on supporting national GAA and the completely flawed system they have organized or support your local GAA club, support LOI football, get your sporting fix elsewhere and maybe when things get straightened out in a few years come back to intercounty GAA.

I support all three. Involved in the club, support inter county when it doesn't clash and am an LOI season ticket holder but this is getting a bit off topic of what happened at Congress at the weekend. Good luck.

Dots1982

howiya wrote: »

I support all three. Involved in the club, support inter county when it doesn't clash and am an LOI season ticket holder but this is getting a bit off topic of what happened at Congress at the weekend. Good luck.

If you continue to go to games and line the pockets of the GAA and their fixed competition then don’t expect anything to change,

Fann Linn

Dots1982 wrote: »

If you continue to go to games and line the pockets of the GAA and their fixed competition then don’t expect anything to change,

You do know that its a two way street here.
The money generated at national inter county level flows down to the club you allegedly support, and furthermore, the delegate(s) your club puts forward to county level set the policies which are ultimately decided at national congress.

Dots1982

Fann Linn wrote: »

You do know that its a two way street here.
The money generated at national inter county level flows down to the club you allegedly support, and furthermore, the delegate(s) your club puts forward to county level set the policies which are ultimately decided at national congress.

True, I’m prepared to risk it.

threeball

Bonniedog wrote: »

You are actually proving my point! Kildare had huge money - also have great football tradition in fairness - and it did not get them over the line because they came up against a great Galway team mostly.

It was fly by night money from glory hunters used to buying Derbies and if you think it was "chicken feed" you know nothing about it!!! none of them had any interest in developing the county long term. That is being done now and Kildare are more than competitive at underage with Dublin in football, and have makings of a decent hurling set up as well although probably it will lose out with greater emphasis on football.

another county that is using its money wisely rather than building white elephants.

The great tradition of not winning all irelands or leinsters? They went from also rans to an All ireland in jot time with money and disappeared once it was gone. So you're undermining your own argument. They came up 4 points short against one of the all time great teams so it was hardly a failure.

Dots1982

It’s weird to me that something running on a three year trial basis like the super 8s has to have changes voted in via congress. I’d imagine it doesn’t but the powers that be don’t want any changes to how it’s presently run. A let fairness be damned approach.

ToBeFrank123

I think they will have to revisit the Super 8 Neutral venue issue.
While it was supposed to be about "glamour" ties in Croke Park it hasn't worked out.
The Galway v Kerry game was flat. Unless you get 60,000 minimum into Croker, the atmosphere can be flat.
If Galway v Kerry was played somewhere like Limerick, the atmosphere would have been much better.
And Croker is not a neutral venue for Dublin. Unfair to expect teams outside Leinster to travel there for a "neutral" Super 8 game in Dublin's backyard on front of a half empty Croke Park.

Barlett

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I think they will have to revisit the Super 8 Neutral venue issue.
While it was supposed to be about "glamour" ties in Croke Park it hasn't worked out.
The Galway v Kerry game was flat. Unless you get 60,000 minimum into Croker, the atmosphere can be flat.
If Galway v Kerry was played somewhere like Limerick, the atmosphere would have been much better.
And Croker is not a neutral venue for Dublin. Unfair to expect teams outside Leinster to travel there for a "Neutral" Super 8 game in Dublin's backyard on front of a half empty Croker Park.

This is the real issue, it should never have needed a motion. Croke Park is shoe horned into the championship as a venue at every opportunity, even when it's clear you're only going to get about 20,000 for some god awful triple header.

There are plenty of huge grounds around the country to accomodate Dublin, Mayo and every other county with big support and will keep the competiton fair for everyone from the Super Eights onwards.

I mean Galway beat Kerry last year...a big achievement, but it was like they had just beaten them in a challenge match because it took place in an empty Croke Park.

Bonniedog

I don't think any sane or fair minded person is arguing against that Barlett.

.
Donegal were told there was an option to go for excluding CP as neutral venue for Dublin, which would be fair thing to do, but they chose not to for some reason best known to themselves.


CP is dreadful place for the sort of games you describe, but many counties insist on it. Indeed there was uproar when it was suggested to move the lower tier hurling championships from CP. what people see in having 3/4,000 in a Grand Canyon like stadium with no atmosphere instead of a nice crowd in a more convenient and compact ground is beyond me.

huber

The Valentia motion was unfortunately defeated. No understanding of rural clubs and the real struggles of keeping a GAA club on the road.

ToBeFrank123

Urbanisation of populations will be a huge challenge to the GAA for the next few decades.

Rural clubs are struggling, urban ones struggling to cope with too many players.

Its very difficult to ask players from Kerry, Donegal, Mayo, etc working in Dublin to head home for club games. Particularly when they marry and have kids.

50 years from now Gaelic Football could be effectively dead in some rural areas at the senior age group.

Bonniedog

If this Project 2040 madness goes ahead, we will all be facing prospect of Irish people as a minority in the 26 counties. GAA will exist in museums if that becomes the case.