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Congress 2019

124

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    If this Project 2040 madness goes ahead, we will all be facing prospect of Irish people as a minority in the 26 counties. GAA will exist in museums if that becomes the case.

    Didn’t know mass emigration of Irish people to be replaced by foreign people was one of the goals of project 2040?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Didn’t know mass emigration of Irish people to be replaced by foreign people was one of the goals of project 2040?


    Perhaps you should read it then :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Perhaps you should read it then :)

    The government is planning to systematically export its own people. It’s a bold strategy cotton


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Not sure how anyone can argue that the argument, or wording of the argument, wasnt farcical. It needed to focus on the Neutral Super 8 game. Inexplicably, they focused on Dublin's home game. If the home game got moved to Parnell park and the neutral at CP, Dublin would still have 2 home games. The motion was never achieving anything anyway.

    Home game at CP, neutral game outside the county if the easy fix. Whether that motion would've passed is a different story. Very little incentive for hurling first counties to vote in favour when it doesn't affect them bar stopping a revenue stream. It's frustrating


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    The government is planning to systematically export its own people. It’s a bold strategy cotton



    This government or any likely replacement could not plan a p1ss up in a brewery. They are admin for Brussels and corporations.

    Logic of Project 2040 is to import lots of cheap labour, turn Dublin into high rise kip. Educated younger people leave. Over 100,000 in 2017 and 2018. 170,000 immigrants in same two year period - if you go by the official figures and I would not!

    It's not rocket science and it is happening elsewhere.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,784 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Hulk Hands wrote: »
    <snip>
    Home game at CP, neutral game outside the county if the easy fix. Whether that motion would've passed is a different story. Very little incentive for hurling first counties to vote in favour when it doesn't affect them bar stopping a revenue stream. It's frustrating
    100% agree that that is what should have been put.

    Even for hurling counties, you have Limerick, Cork, Tipp (and even KK if Dublin werent playing) with stadiums big enough to cater for neutral football super 8 ganes, so if they were thinking of money they'd actually be in favour of moving the games round the country as they could benefit directly from the rent income.

    But the Donegal motion was literally asking congress to move one of Dublins games to Parnell Park which was not making anything any more fair or better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Not just the hurling counties I suppose. Super 8s have a lifespan of 2 more years and a good 15+ counties have zero chance of making them in that time. No point in them stopping the revenue stream either


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Hulk Hands wrote: »
    Not just the hurling counties I suppose. Super 8s have a lifespan of 2 more years and a good 15+ counties have zero chance of making them in that time. No point in them stopping the revenue stream either

    How many teams have a realistic chance of winning the hurling either?

    A few more maybe than 20 years ago, but no more than 9 at the very limit. And that's with a more open competition now that Cats have come back to the pack it seems. I'd nearly say you could boil it down to one of Limerick, Tipp, Galway and one of Cork, Clare and Waterford as potential outside chance.

    No different than football ever was really. There are maybe seven counties with any chance: Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Dublin, Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal.

    You go back 20, 50, 75, 100 years, there would be little change in either list other than the absence of Cats and inclusion of three Ulster teams who were late starters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Not disputing the level of competition past or present in the GAA. Simply pointing out the conflicts of interest that exist when stuff comes to Congress that generally works against the interest of fairness in the sports themselves


  • Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭grbear


    Targeting the neutral game would have gotten even less support than the motion Donegal tabled. It might not matter much to teams who play a lot at Croke Park regularly but it'd be easier to sell ice to Eskimos than sell traditionalists within the GAA on the idea that a provincial champion wouldn't be guaranteed a game in Croke Park.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    If their object was to stop Dublin having two games in CP - which is a reasonable proposal - then the motion could have been clearly worded to that effect. It would only have impacted on whoever Dublin were due to play in the CP game. Can't see any team that had serious ambitions wanting to play in CP against Dublin if there was another option.

    But back we go again. They did not word it thus even though Croke Park had meetings with them pointing out all of the ramifications and that they were open to congress voting to change the provision for a Dublin Croke Park game but that Dublin be allowed to choose it as a home venue.

    But they didn't and they lost. so back to the drawing board.

    They do not even seem to have grasped that only impact of their motion being passed was that Dublin would have two games in Dublin and one in Parnell which you could fill and over with Dublin county board and season tickets, and where Dublin are even more comfortable than in Croke Park.

    Unless of course they had a second string to their attack which some suspect they may have done that would also have prevented Dublin playing in Donnycarney/


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    Its the neutral game they need to target. But given that about half the counties playing football have no chance of making the super 8s, these counties aren't bothered.

    So every county is out for their own benefit, often at the price of the overall welfare or fairness of the game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    To be honest, all this talk about poor wordings, amendments, congress etc. is not really necessary and kinda misses the point as regards the super 8 issue.
    In reality, come super 8 time, there is nothing stopping the gaa from saying that since Dublins home and coke park game are going to be two de facto home games, while everyone else only gets one, we will just move the neutral game to X neutral venue.
    The all Ireland semi final was supposed to be played in croke park a few years back, but they moved it to limerick... They moved an ulster final to cp back in the 00s. They can move games to wherever they want. They just need to want to...
    This thing about congress and now having to wait another year is an would tall tale, there is no need for a motion for this to happen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    No matter what happens, the quarter final groups are going to be worse than the old quarter finals for the most part because they're not knockout games. A final round game where it's winner takes all would be the exception.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog



    This thing about congress and now having to wait another year is an would tall tale, there is no need for a motion for this to happen.


    There is actually. The structure of the 8s was voted on (approved by around 75%) at 2017 Congress and can only be changed by another vote at Congress.

    There was no rule governing where games other than the AI finals could be held in the years you refer to. There is still nothing to stop an Ulster final being held in Croke Park.

    The reason the Mayo/Kerry replay was held in Limerick had to do with bad planning and prioritising of the venue by CP, but there was no rule to be invoked as there is now with 8s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    There is actually. The structure of the 8s was voted on (approved by around 75%) at 2017 Congress and can only be changed by another vote at Congress.

    There was no rule governing where games other than the AI finals could be held in the years you refer to. There is still nothing to stop an Ulster final being held in Croke Park.

    The reason the Mayo/Kerry replay was held in Limerick had to do with bad planning and prioritising of the venue by CP, but there was no rule to be invoked as there is now with 8s.

    But the structure of the semi finals was agreed also. Semi finals are in cp. That is no different to saying the cp/neutral game is in cp. Re the semi final, if cp is unavailable you just go at a different date. Common sense told us that the game needed to go ahead with the final looming - ie excptional circumstances. So it did.

    I disagree on the moving of the ulster final. There is a structure in place in ulster. They just decided to forego it (No common sense involved, just greed).
    They also just dumped the handpass limit rule at the last second, when it was agreed it would be trialled. If they can do these things and not be hamstrung by red tape then they can do the same with the croke park game in the super 8s on the grounds of common sense under exceptional circumstances.

    Would anyone argue if they did? It's an oversight anyway, why not just move the game somewhere else and balance the thing up? They can do it


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    They could and possibly still can move the semi finals as has been done on various occasions through the years. That is in prerogative of CCC.


    The 8s structure for group stage including the provision for CP, home and away, was voted on by Congress and can only be changed by Congress.


  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭RedDevil55


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    They could and possibly still can move the semi finals as has been done on various occasions through the years. That is in prerogative of CCC.


    The 8s structure for group stage including the provision for CP, home and away, was voted on by Congress and can only be changed by Congress.

    The same way the Liam Miller tribute match couldn't go ahead in PUC until a motion was passed at Congress...


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    The most exciting games of the Super 8s were the ones played in the likes of Clones (Monaghan v Kerry) and Omagh (Tyrone v Dublin). A couple of other games too.

    The least exciting were the ones at Croke Park. Unless Croke Park is full or almost full, the atmosphere is flat.

    So yes maybe they need to reconsider CP as the neutral venue. A nice idea to give counties at least one run out in CP as a reward for making the super 8s but in practice adds nothing to the competition.

    Dublin v Kerry in Thurles, Mayo v Kerry in Limerick, these would be cracking neutral venue games.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    The most exciting games of the Super 8s were the ones played in the likes of Clones (Monaghan v Kerry) and Omagh (Tyrone v Dublin). A couple of other games too.

    The least exciting were the ones at Croke Park. Unless Croke Park is full or almost full, the atmosphere is flat.

    So yes maybe they need to reconsider CP as the neutral venue. A nice idea to give counties at least one run out in CP as a reward for making the super 8s but in practice adds nothing to the competition.

    Dublin v Kerry in Thurles, Mayo v Kerry in Limerick, these would be cracking neutral venue games.

    Agreed.
    Also, there is this perception that they are making more money by putting them in cp. But if you look at the figures, I'm not convinced that this is even the case any more. The super 8s aren't knockouts, they are basically league type games. Dragging teams up to cp to play them is losing fans. With the Dublin attendances dropping, I would argue that it is losing more attendees from all the other games, than it is gaining by having the Dublin games in cp. That would in fact make it a profit losing exercise...


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,134 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

    "all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

    Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

    Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    bruschi wrote: »
    It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

    "all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

    Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

    Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.

    Agreed. It should be left to counties to decide between themselves. So if Roscommon and Galway meet, they can decide to play it in CP or else in Castlebar. Another issue is going to Dublin is expensive for the hardcore support who follow their county everywhere. CP is often the preserve of the so called "sunshine" supporter. Not really fair to drag supporters all the way from Kerry, Cork, Donegal, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    The Dublin attendance is falling.

    Really?

    35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    The Dublin attendance is falling.

    Really?

    35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

    Ah now, The 90s is a long time ago, never mind the 70s & 80s.

    The attendances have been falling for the past few years. A few blockbusting replays versus Mayo saved face. But the crowds have completely dropped since the times Dublin would routinely get 70k or 80k for a Leinster final.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Dots1982 wrote: »
    Ah now, The 90s is a long time ago, never mind the 70s & 80s.

    The attendances have been falling for the past few years. A few blockbusting replays versus Mayo saved face. But the crowds have completely dropped since the times Dublin would routinely get 70k or 80k for a Leinster final.

    They'd fall even further if Dublin were playing Mayo in Parnell Park😆😆😆


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭Dots1982


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    They'd fall even further if Dublin were playing Mayo in Parnell Park😆😆😆

    Irrelevant to my point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    bruschi wrote: »
    It was a very easy motion to put forward without causing all neutral games to be banished from Croke Park.

    "all neutral games between participating counties must be played in a ground outside of both counties".

    Simple. Leaves the option open to play other neutral games in Croke Park if they so deem so. Means Dublin have to play their neutral game outside Dublin.

    Croke Park is overused and is now becoming not as illustrious or as big a deal anymore. The more it is used, the less ambitious it is for counties to try reach there.

    Yep that's the way around it. And people forget that the neutral game in Dublin's case is the meeting of the provincial champions (or near certain these days). It's incredibly unlikely that a minnow who want the achievement of reaching Croke Park are going to be playing in this game as a provincial champion. The biggest unfairness of the whole thing is that it's a provincial champion, who should be being rewarded over a qualifier, that gets screwed with having two away games


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭MayoAreMagic


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    The Dublin attendance is falling.

    Really?

    35,000 there for the Mayo game. That would have been higher than the average league final attendance for most of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

    A very deliberate attempt to skew the facts in front of us...
    Attendances of Dublin support is falling, that is a fact. I could be similarly faceatious and say that for all we know those 35000 fans could be all mayo fans, but im not going down the same disingenuous road you are...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Barlett


    I don’t see how anyone other than comical Ali could argue against the fact that attendances for Dublin games are falling & it’s simply because no one wants to go to games that aren’t competitive.

    Mayo have a great support currently but if we enjoyed similar dominance or fell away so would the support.

    Think of the support Dublin had this time ten years ago compared to now - it’s night & day, and that’s because back then everyone felt they were on a journey with the team in this quest for an All Ireland whereas now, they win them in their sleep


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,772 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Barlett wrote: »
    I don’t see how anyone other than comical Ali could argue against the fact that attendances for Dublin games are falling & it’s simply because no one wants to go to games that aren’t competitive.

    Mayo have a great support currently but if we enjoyed similar dominance or fell away so would the support.

    Think of the support Dublin had this time ten years ago compared to now - it’s night & day, and that’s because back then everyone felt they were on a journey with the team in this quest for an All Ireland whereas now, they win them in their sleep

    That's spot on.

    Back in the mid '00s Dublin legitimately needed stand alone QF fixtures because of demand.

    Interestingly they have not had one since the start of their current run in 2011.


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