Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

I don't see huge value in rotating large numbers of players. This is a very, very poor Italy team.

I don't doubt that Cronin would run riot, that Roux would look like a titan of the pack and that Carbery would run the show with guile and elan. What would it really tell us? That these guys can hack it against an XV that would be mid-range in the Pro14? Sure we already know that.

If we really want to test players out, we need to see them playing against France and Wales.

Ireland is a highly structured team, in both attack and defense.... so a high rotation will be very useful for a few reasons.

we should still play players who are starters but short of game time ie henderson, SOB, murray etc alongside greener players

Rotation will tell us who can run the attack patterns in a test game, off both first and multi phased play.
also who has difficulty staying aligned in defense, who understands the calls and who takes leadership in making those calls.
Lineout plays can be experimented with.

It may be italy, but its still a test game and all we have to do is look at the Italy wales game 2 weeks ago to see the threats they can have.

Theres high value in a large number of rotations for this game too.... as thats what we will have to do in RWC times ie when playing the likes of russia and samoa.

troyzer

You rest the likes of Ryan, Furlong and Best and start the likes of Sexton, Murray and Kearney to get some more game time.

Then you can go full experimental against France at home.

thomond2006

Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, he would - but if there's too much rotation, then he loses that value. Those tests we played in the Autumn against Italy and USA were utterly meaningless for just that reason.

TLDR - a couple of changes, no more, be grand.

Yes, I agree. Five changes or so is fine.

Perifect

I think changes in personnel are kind of irrelevant! Yes, it'd be nice to see some other players get a run and stake a claim but developing our style is far more important. We might throw the ball around a bit more against Italy but we have to see some change against France and Wales. I'm not saying throw the old game plan out the window, we have to add to it. We need new points of attack, make us harder to predict, to add more threat from our wide play.
Joe has been brilliant for us and I'm sure he realises this. He doesn't appear to be extremely stubborn, that cost previous coaches. He's more flexible and open to advancement. Let's hope we see some in this 6 nations. Maybe he's saving it for later in the year though. A risky strategy but one that could prove fruitful.

Buer

So the rumour is that Sexton is to start. I'd find that pretty disappointing, to be honest. We're in danger of repeating our history all over again.

Ian Madigan went into the last RWC with 21 caps having never started a 6N match. Joey Carbery is close to going to the RWC in exceptionally similar circumstance (18 caps with no 6N starts) albeit better placed through playing more regularly at 10 for his province this season. Madigan would have had much more game time at 10 overall at this point, though.

I never expected multiple changes and Richie Murphy's comments yesterday confirmed that they won't be making many. But I did feel that Carbery was the one change that was necessary.

Aside from that, I'm not sure we'll see much more beyond guys returning from injury coming back into the team i.e.the likes of Henderson or Henshaw etc.

bennyl10

Was not rotating 10's not a huge part of the issue we had at the last RWC?
Johnny may not look the sharpest, but we need Joey to get test match game time!
Put him in against Italy and give johnny the last 20 minutes leading into a full start against France then!

troyzer

Starting Carbery against France makes more sense.

Buer

troyzer wrote: »

Starting Carbery against France makes more sense.

It's also massively unlikely.

awec

Can't help but think, given Carbery's lack of starts, and given Schmidt's refusal to sub 9 and 10 until he has absolutely no other choice, that he hasn't really learnt his lesson from last time round.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Can't help but think, given Carbery's lack of starts, and given Schmidt's refusal to sub 9 and 10 until he has absolutely no other choice, that he hasn't really learnt his lesson from last time round.

I think he has probably learned his lesson generally when you look at the depth we have built up across the field. The number of players that we simply cannot afford to lose has dropped considerably.

In relation to outhalf, we have to keep in mind that Schmidt lost the guy who was, by a considerable distance, the back up 10. Jackson had started 2 of the matches in the 2017 6N and it was only in late 2017 (18 months ago) that he became unavailable).

I would say the problem is twofold:

1) Carbery isn't fully trusted. He's still learning the ropes and I don't think we've really seen a performance in green to date that makes us think he is ready to step in at 10 in a crunch match and dictate proceedings.
2) Sexton/Murray are two of the best players in the world. Regardless of who is behind them, there will be a gulf and Schmidt struggles to select others when they're so central to Irish success.

At the end of the day though, the only way that gap narrows is with game time as we've seen with someone like Marmion.

AdamD

Not really sure how much benefit there is to starting Carbery against Italy anyways, it'll be a rout.

thomond2006

AdamD wrote: »

Not really sure how much benefit there is to starting Carbery against Italy anyways, it'll be a rout.

If Carbery can't do the business in a game like this, then you know where his ceiling is right now. Sexton is being held together with masking tape at this stage. Save him for the final two games.

molloyjh

What other games could Joey have started up to now that he didn’t? And given the respective form of the two half backs, surely going into the France game with Sexton on 25 mins in 4 weeks would be a huge issue. I know people say now that they would rather focus on the RWC, but I’d be curious to know what those same people would say if we lost to France and Wales and came 4th by the end of the 6Ns.

There seems to me to be a pretty fine balancing act to be played to ensure we’re winning enough games, while also managing injury and form. In terms of bringing Joey on in games, how many times have we had the lead enough to do that?

I think it’s incredibly harsh to say that Joe hasn’t learned his lessons from the last RWC, and probably more realistic to say he’s developed depth in as much as he could. There was no way he could have known he’d lose Jackson who had started a number of 6Ns games as well as all the games away to SA (I know Sexton was injured). Carbery is still only 23 and simply isn’t any better than Mads was in 2015. He might get better, but he isn’t there now. An extra 40-60 mins against Italy isn’t going to change that. If we want to be real about this, it’s hardly reasonable to suggest a 23 year old out half with just a single season as first choice for a province, is ever going to be in position to do much more for us than Mads did 4 years ago who at the time had 3 years on where Carbery is now.

Now there may be cause for discussing why we so regularly find ourselves in a position where we can’t afford to change our half backs in games....

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

So the rumour is that Sexton is to start. I'd find that pretty disappointing, to be honest. We're in danger of repeating our history all over again.

Ian Madigan went into the last RWC with 21 caps having never started a 6N match. Joey Carbery is close to going to the RWC in exceptionally similar circumstance (18 caps with no 6N starts) albeit better placed through playing more regularly at 10 for his province this season. Madigan would have had much more game time at 10 overall at this point, though.

I never expected multiple changes and Richie Murphy's comments yesterday confirmed that they won't be making many. But I did feel that Carbery was the one change that was necessary.

Aside from that, I'm not sure we'll see much more beyond guys returning from injury coming back into the team i.e.the likes of Henderson or Henshaw etc.

That is completely disregarding that when our hand was forced against Argentina and we had to play Madigan, we also had lost, POC, POM, SOB and Payne then lost Bowe after 10 minutes.

That's 5 players who would have been part of the leadership group with over 200 caps between them. Not sure we'd have won that game even with Sexton on the field.

I do think that Carbery should be getting better exposure.

But using Madigan as an example is just not applicable here.

Shefwedfan

Either Sexton plays against Italy or you play Carberry and he plays all the remaining games....it is that simple. Sexton hasn't enough minutes on the pitch since the Munster game and he needs an easy game to be honest.

I don't know how we could go into the France and Wales game with out best 10 and World Player of the year sitting on the bench.

This stuff about Joey needs time at 10, he is playing week in week out with Munster at 10 with the Irish 9, he is getting loads of experience. The issue going into the last WC was Madigan was not playing 10 at international or club level. He was playing 13 or 15 or bench.

So it is not the same at all. Joey will hopefully get a good run in Heneiken Cup and also maybe a Pro14 semi and final in the next few months. Huge experience. Also against alot better sides than Italy.

Anyone who is talking about throwing a 6 nations which Ireland could still win is an.....an't get another yellow card so I wont say

Also from IRFU point of view, they get more money the further up the table they get, I doubt they are telling Joe to throw the next couple of games.....

thomond2006

If Sexton needs game time prior to France, he can play for Leinster next weekend.

I really hope we won't be having the same conversations to 4 years ago later this year. Sexton is almost certain to be unavailable at some stage during the RWC.

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Sexton needs game time prior to France, he can play for Leinster next weekend.

I really hope we won't be having the same conversations to 4 years ago later this year. Sexton is almost certain to be unavailable at some stage during the RWC.

What good will playing against a SA team that the Leinster kids will put 50 on by half time?

He needs time with Murray as well, they haven't had much game time together at all......especially as Murray is out of form

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Sexton needs game time prior to France, he can play for Leinster next weekend.

I really hope we won't be having the same conversations to 4 years ago later this year. Sexton is almost certain to be unavailable at some stage during the RWC.

The conversation 4 years ago was about depth across the board. That’s been dealt with well. But when we lost 2 young 10s in quick succession and had 2 years to try and develop a 21 year old who had barely played any senior rugby then we were always going to struggle at 10. There isn’t really a whole lot anyone could have done. Apart from try and ensure that Joey was first choice at one of the provinces and developing there.

Southdubin6

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Sexton needs game time prior to France, he can play for Leinster next weekend.

I really hope we won't be having the same conversations to 4 years ago later this year. Sexton is almost certain to be unavailable at some stage during the RWC.

Not a good idea. Sexton and Murray need to have minutes together as it's not clicking at the minute. Johnny hasn't played near enough he needs game time. Johnny and Madigan completely different comparisons

aloooof

Is it absolutely definitive that Sexton needs game time tho? I think I remember pre-Lions 2017 he was in pretty poor form, but was able to turn that around pretty quickly. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

That is completely disregarding that when our hand was forced against Argentina and we had to play Madigan, we also had lost, POC, POM, SOB and Payne then lost Bowe after 10 minutes.

That's 5 players who would have been part of the leadership group with over 200 caps between them. Not sure we'd have won that game even with Sexton on the field.

I do think that Carbery should be getting better exposure.

But using Madigan as an example is just not applicable here.

It's not disregarding that. It's just not part of the point.

Madigan did not have sufficient exposure to be comfortable as Irish starting outhalf with anything approaching consistency in the event of Sexton being injured. I don't think anyone is really going to argue against that too much. He had never started a game against top tier oppostion prior to the RWC. That was putting him at a significant disadvantage regardless of there being zero or a dozen injuries.

Carbery currently has a very similar level of exposure as we approach the next RWC having only started one game (against Australia). It's all well and good getting 55 minutes off the bench but the level of pressure, expectation and preparation is very different if you're being named to start in such a game and Carbery needs to get comfortable with that.

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What good will playing against a SA team that the Leinster kids will put 50 on by half time?

He needs time with Murray as well, they haven't had much game time together at all......especially as Murray is out of form

Time with Murray for what though? The 6N is gone.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Is it absolutely definitive that Sexton needs game time tho? I think I remember pre-Lions 2015 he was in pretty poor form, but was able to turn that around pretty quickly. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

To be honest, I don't really think so. He was pretty good in his 20 minutes against Scotland aside from one very poor up and under. He looked sharp in his general play, making a good covering tackle, reading an intercept and distributing well.

Richie Murphy spoke about how he doesn't need game time to get up to speed in yesterday's press conference so I can only imagine it's about trying to get things to click more with Murray (or taking pressure off Murray right now). There's also the possibility of yet another midfield change so perhaps they want more continuity there.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Anyone who is talking about throwing a 6 nations which Ireland could still win is an.....an't get another yellow card so I wont say

Also from IRFU point of view, they get more money the further up the table they get, I doubt they are telling Joe to throw the next couple of games.....

Who has said anything like this?? Starting Carbery doesn't equate to throwing a game.

jonok28

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really think so. He was pretty good in his 20 minutes against Scotland aside from one very poor up and under. He looked sharp in his general play, making a good covering tackle, reading an intercept and distributing well.

Richie Murphy spoke about how he doesn't need game time to get up to speed in yesterday's press conference so I can only imagine it's about trying to get things to click more with Murray (or taking pressure off Murray right now). There's also the possibility of yet another midfield change so perhaps they want more continuity there.

I'd play Sexton against Italy and have Carbery play vs France, no point in putting Sexton out against France when the 6 nations title is out of our grasp, they target him every time and look to take him out so put in Carbery who needs the experience against teams better than Italy, Sexton just needs the reps and Italy would be the perfect chance for him and Murray to get game time under their belts.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

. If we want to be real about this, it’s hardly reasonable to suggest a 23 year old out half with just a single season as first choice for a province, is ever going to be in position to do much more for us than Mads did 4 years ago who at the time had 3 years on where Carbery is now.
.

2014, Handre Pollard, 20 years of age, starts 5 of the 6 rugby championship games for South Africa and 3 further internationals that year... in his debut season where he had only 4 starts for the Bulls at 10.

the following season he has 7 appearance in the RWC15.

i think its very reasonable to suggest that a 23 year old Joe Carbery can do more after a full season at 10 than Madigan did for us 4 years ago..... and i think its wrong not to be giving him as much exposure pre RWC 19 as possible.

Are Ireland giving sexton and murray game time in order to get them up to speed for the business end of the HC ?? because i dont see any other reason, we will learn nothing by playing sexton in this italy game, and probaly french game to.

the way sexton and murray are currently playing we could easily get beaten by wales on the final day....... so who really cares whether we finish 3rd or 4th at this stage?

Shefwedfan

It seems to be back to the bad old days.....doesn't matter what is good or bad for Ireland as long as the 10 playing is from the province I support.

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It seems to be back to the bad old days.....doesn't matter what is good or bad for Ireland as long as the 10 playing is from the province I support.

i honestly dont think ANYONE is claiming that....... quite the opposite actually

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Time with Murray for what though? The 6N is gone.

After two games the 6 nations is gone?????



The more points and better position the more money for the IRFU....

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Who has said anything like this?? Starting Carbery doesn't equate to throwing a game.

As per my post, which you forgot to quote the rest of it, if you play Carberry against Italy then you play him for rest of tournament.


I did not say playing Carberry was throwing the tournament. But if you have the best 9/10 in the World why would you not play them against Italy/Frace/Wales?



Plenty of people have posted on this forum about throwing the 6 natiosn because the WC is all it is about..... I said before the start or tournament and I am saying it now the 6 nations is massive, the World Cup will look after itself.....