ESB eCars

liamog

“We started the year with 22 high-powered hubs and will have 42 by the end of the year,” Mr Byrne said.

As of data scraped from eCars today they have 20 sites with CCS chargers over 50kW. Only 11 of which have more than 1 CCS cable capable of charging at that speed.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331093#Comment_120331093

Not if you stay with your car

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331070#Comment_120331070

I'm reading it as 4 chargers with two connectors each.

So a total of 8 connectors which can all be used simultaneously.

So potentially 8 cars could charge.

Layout at the site will be crucial here as ESB have mucked this up repeatedly

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331251#Comment_120331251

Unfortunately the quote is that it can charge 4 vehicles at a time. *Hub*

AndyBoBandy

For a minute there I thought we were getting J14/Mayfield 2.0

it'll be 2 years old in June.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331437#Comment_120331437

And outdated, consider that BP pulse just installed a hub in the UK with 10x 300kW chargers. 20 cars can charge at 150kW in parallel

Charging power in cars is only going up and ESB aren't even trying to future proof their network. Instead they're installing technology that is barely adequate for today

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331437#Comment_120331437

We are, but its going to be at Obama Plaza

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120330902#Comment_120330902

In fairnes 44kW gets a leaf from 20-80 in 30 minutes so how much faster does it really need to be? I accept that situation will change in the coming years but if ESB want to keep their costs down (and lets be fair they are one of the cheapest for consumers at the moment) then a hit probably needs to be taken on the speed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120331059#Comment_120331059

Considering the price difference between ESB, ionity, applegreen etc etc I don't think that would be smart. Hearing reports of Applegreen chargers supplying 17kW at some CCS locations

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333696#Comment_120333696

Putting it out to tender doesn't mean that private operators could provide a poor service or charge a high price - there are lots of ways of structuring public tenders. Turas don't get to decide how much the M50 toll costs, that's decided by TII. GAI and Transdev don't get to decide on public transport routes, frequency or fares - they're all decided by NTA.

I wouldn't be too quick to judge AppleGreen, they're only in the market a couple of weeks so teething difficulties are inevitable. eCars have been doing this for years and they still install AC on DC chargers and 3 parking spaces where 4 cars can charge.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333696#Comment_120333696

LOL. Yeah lets base all future decisions on a deprecated car from 2012 with a dead charging standard. Yeah thats a great way to design hubs.

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120333696#Comment_120333696

In fairnes 44kW gets a leaf from 20-80 in 30 minutes so how much faster does it really need to be?

But the Leaf is now in the tiny minority.. and getting smaller by the day.

and at 44kW the most any car could take in 45 minutes is 33kWh…. That’s less than 50% for the majority of cars released since 2020……

but yeah, how much faster does it need to be????? Bang of “I’m alright Jack” off of that….

liamog

On the topic of how fast is should be, personally I think the sweet spot as of right now is 150kW. I think a good site should deploy the Kempower style chargers with 8x150kW being the available capacity. The chargers should be capable of operating in the 350kW mode but only when the site isn't fully occupied. The kempower solution is better than eCars choice of charger because it spreads across multiple charge points instead the old A/B problem like earlier versions of Superchargers.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334700#Comment_120334700

Yes I think sites should be able to do 150kW at each plug, like Ionity do, and 4-6 per site minimum.

You can have 300kW marketing and 800v etc but most cars are 400v and 150kW for right now is a good mix of speed and scale.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334517#Comment_120334517

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120334580#Comment_120334580

You're both missing the point, do we really NEED charge speeds of 150kW?

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335606#Comment_120335606

Yes.

and if you drove a car that wasn’t limited to 60kW charging you’d understand this.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335617#Comment_120335617

Even if I did drive a car that needs a mortgage to buy I'd still argue that 9 X 50kW chargers would be far better than 3 X 150kW units from the POV of queuing for a charge

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335606#Comment_120335606

Yes, shorter charging times = shorter queues = both allowing us to get back on the road quicker

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335606#Comment_120335606

Yes, we do

There was a survey a while back trying to figure out the amount of time people would be willing to wait for a charge

It pretty much came up with 15 mins as the max amount of time people would be waiting before it became an inconvenience

So in 15 mins you need to load as much range as possible, probably for another 250-300km. For most cars now that seems to be on the order of ~50-60kWh, assuming you're doing around 20kWh/100km

That works out to an average charging power of 200kW

Cars are working towards this by having much higher charging speeds and more predictable charging sessions

But the network needs to keep pace, which is why you see 350kW chargers getting installed even though only a few card can manage even close to that

And ESB being all proud of their 100kW chargers which can load share down to 50kW is pretty disheartening for the way things are going

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335676#Comment_120335676

I agree with you up to a point but like I've said before the chargers should suit the requirements of the customer

If we were talking about a supermarket or shopping centre then I'd absolutely agree that a lot of 50kW chargers are better than a couple of HPCs

But the context here is the likes of Mayfield and now the upcoming Barack Obama plaza, where you want to charge up and get out of there ASAP. So 150kW and more is definitely what you need

FWIW, ideally you'd have a mix, say 4x350kW chargers with dual CCS and load sharing and then another pair of 100kW chargers with dual Chademo+CCS, and a lower price per kWh to reflect the slower charging rate

eltoastero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335676#Comment_120335676

But we don't get hubs with 9x 50kW chargers here, we're getting mighty hubs with between 2 and 4 plugs per location (and usually 1 fewer parking space than needed) because forward thinking be damned! So if we're only getting a few plugs per location then 150kW+ chargers are the way to go.

In an ideal world there'd be a mix of 150kW+ and 50kW chargers at each location (how about 2x 150kW + 3x 50kW) and let people choose to pay more per kWh at the faster charger (I would happily pay more to use a third of the time to charge) and let people pay less per kWh at the slower charger (if they want to take the time to eat, or don't have a car capable of high power charging or whatever).

It's not like we, the experienced users of EVs, are going to have our input listened to anyway, we should be lucky we're getting anything at all.

ELM327

Yes

liamog

Osprey in the UK had a blog post on this. They're focusing on the rollout of load balance 150kW units based on demand from their network. The difference for a Taycan between a 350kW unit and a 150kW unit is only 4 minutes.

https://www.ospreycharging.co.uk/post/peak-v-average-charging-power

At Osprey, we continually track the real-world metrics to understand the demand and capabilities of cars on the road and in the future. We adjust our hardware and site strategy accordingly. 

- The average actual charging power of cars registered in 2022 was 95kW

- Of all EVs on the road, less than 10% have an average charging power over 110kW

- So you could serve two cars with two 350kW charge points, or four cars just as fast with four 150kW charge points.

wassie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335606#Comment_120335606

You're both missing the point, do we really NEED charge speeds of 150kW?

I did roughly 530km for work yesterday. Stopped twice for 'fast' charging for about 25 mins each and maxed out well over 100kw both times.

If I was stuck on 50kW chargers, I would of added an extra hour to my already long 14 hour day.

So yes, I need it.

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336248#Comment_120336248

Yea but if you drive a leaf then you couldn't charge much faster than 50KW so feck everyone else.

While we're at it we might as well stick install CCS and Chademo in the same 1:1 ratio.

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336248#Comment_120336248

Not to mention the overstay fee’s you’d have incurred unless you needed less than 33kWh at each charging stop on those 50kW chargers….

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120336287#Comment_120336287

We're not far from someone proposing, based on analysis of people charging at eCars 50kW chargers we've identified an average charging speed of 40kW and primarily using CHAdeMO*. Therefore we will now only be rolling out 40kW chargers.

* data collected Mar-Oct 2016 on Tuesdays

Old diesel

From a future proofing viewpoint.....

One can see where proper stop just for the charge* en route EV charging is going in future (done correctly).....

We can see from charging tests like Bjorn Neylands.

That a good charger and a good EV can be going from 10 to 60 percent in 15 to 20 mins......

In the recent what Car winter range test the Model Y did 272 miles.

So 400 miles on 1 stop of less than 20 mins is going to be possible if fully charged (ie from home) at the start....

Where things start getting interesting also is that if you can hit 80 percent in 25 mins..... Then good availability of HPC in your area and across the country means you can do any journey even if low on charge.

Looking at Bjorns Model S Plaid results recently - I feel he could do under 10 hours for 1000 kms even if he started the clock with car near empty.

Developing infrastructure requires an understanding of where the technology is going....

*destination, charge where you park etc charging is a different ball game in its own right

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337345#Comment_120337345

I absolutely agree, we're starting to see more and more cars going well over the 150kW mark

VW are going to 175kW which is the max they can get at 400V

Kia/Hyundai are well over 200kW with an 800V charger

Tesla are up at 250kW, although I assume they're limited to 175kW on a regular CCS charger

So showing off a 150kW charger which loads splits for two cars as top of the line is just not good enough anymore

Honestly a couple of years ago I thought 150kW was as good as it was going to get but it seems we've still got some mileage to go on charging speeds. Seems 350kW is the new top end of the spectrum

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120335676#Comment_120335676

The thing is the cars that charge at speeds over 50kW are the majority and not the minority. Overall there are around 7.5k leafs and it is safe to assume that only from the ~15k EVs registered last year a good chunk have 100kW+ charging capability. The 1250 Ioniq5/EV6 registered this year definitely do.

Ioniq5 starts at 41k and Leaf62 at 38.5k so not a huge difference in price.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337745#Comment_120337745

Just read there's around 77,000 EVs on the road according to the SEAI

So Leafs would be around 10% of that number and probably another 10% are CCS cars limited to around 50kW

I guess there'd be a good number around the 70-100kW region but considering the top selling EVs are all well over 100kW then there's a definite requirement for 150kW chargers

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337964#Comment_120337964

There are no 77k BEVs . Probably they count PHEVs in . Our past tracking puts BEVs at less than 45k

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338075#Comment_120338075

I'd say that's quite likely the case, I'm just quoting the SEAI on this one 😉

The stats still lean very heavily in favour of cars with over 100kW of charging power

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337534#Comment_120337534

They’re peak charge rates. Look at the charge curve. And see how much they really charge above 150

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338245#Comment_120338245

This is an argument for dynamic balancing but not for low power overall. My car still chargers with 100kW @ 50% SoC. I had one occasion when I stoped charging @150kW. I don't remember now the SoC but the charging session was few minutes and it was sufficient for me. New cars coming are charging faster and faster.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338884#Comment_120338884

Load balancing couid largely be attributable to supply limitations from the grid

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338897#Comment_120338897

Yeah but that still doesn't mean a 100kW charger is going to be adequate for the job

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337534#Comment_120337534

Tesla are getting 190kW on Ionity. The new S/X will be above 200kW on Ionity , at 400V, as the voltage is higher, 450V vs 400V nominal.

Even my puny 3 RWD is charging at 170kW on Ionity. The limit is 500A, so 500A*Vcar is the max available. Even at 90% SOC I'm still at 40kW in my LFP 3.

Or you know, have a piddly leaf charging at a peak of 44kW. I've been there. It's not fun!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338884#Comment_120338884

Agree. Load balancing is needed. The V3 tesla superchargers and Kempower both do this very well.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338897#Comment_120338897

Dynamic balancing doesn't hamper managing grid limitations.

Especially if you also put battery storage on site to be a buffer.....

An illustration of how dynamic balancing should work vs the conventional way.....

Site has 400 kW of power available.

In the conventional way we can have 4 x 100 kW site.

Taycan arrives and charges at 100 kW max......

Leaf charges at 50 kW.....

Dynamic balancing......

4 chargers - all individually capable of pulling max site power if only one car there.....

However the power is split between chargers as required.

2 examples.....

Example 1

Taycan and Leaf on site

Taycan pulls 270 kW and the Leaf - 50 kW - a power demand of 320 kW out of 400 kW available.

Example 2

Taycan and 2 x e208s (100 kW capable) are on site.

If the 208s are pulling 100 kW simultaneously then the Taycan can be allocated 200 kW.

The beauty of Dynamic management however is that we know the charging tapers off on both e208s and Taycan.

So we can reallocate power as more power frees up.

For example when the e208s drop to 50 or when Taycan tapers back to 120....

We split a 150 kW charger to 2 x 75 kW for 2 cars not because of tech or grid limitations.

But because of the limitations of ESB eCars and their vision.

Old diesel

The big challenge is the following.....

Maximising the potential of EVs in terms of en route charging.

We don't want a 250 kW Tesla having to wait an hour at a 50 kW charger....

We also want to maximise throughput to minimise queues and delays....

Battery storage seems vital in the Irish setting in my opinion.

Whether it's buffer storage to allow faster charging at busy periods.

Or a freewire boost type charger in a rural area where traffic is low but still need a rapid charger speed

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339331#Comment_120339331

Bjorn showed this exact idea in a rural spot in Norway. 300kWh battery with a 43kW grid connection and a 2*150kW charger. So you can charge at 150kW for 2 hours before the battery is empty and you're running on the 43kW connection.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120337534#Comment_120337534

What limits the Tesla on a normal non Tesla CCS is the amps the charger can put out

A V3 supercharger at full belt can do over 600 amps - hence 250 kW at 400 volts.

When the original Model 3 long range and performance went on Ionity chargers they were doing 190 kW back in the day.

Bjorn found in his Model S testing recently that at Swedish Ionity the new Model S can pull 205 kW peak or thereabouts.

The best CCS chargers seem to max out at 500 amps when the likes of Bjorn go testing.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339370#Comment_120339370

500A is the CCS v2 limit.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339303#Comment_120339303

Other than kempower is there other chargers offering dynamic balancing?

Dayor Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329934#Comment_120329934

Am delighted to see that development for Obama plaza. If "the sod has been turned" hopefully it's actually on the way. I wonder how long to get that up and running. A big plus for anyone heading south west anyway.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120345744#Comment_120345744

The real question is, will it be ecars or will it be one of their "competitors"

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347570#Comment_120347570

The article is based on an interview with John Byrne who is the head of eCars. He wouldn't be the one to talk about other charging operators networks.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347631#Comment_120347631

Not too bad so

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120347704#Comment_120347704

It's a bit bad that the plan called for 6 of these style hubs to be installed by the end of it, this will be install 2 of 6, certainly somewhat disappointing.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120339547#Comment_120339547

SuC does it and rumor has it it also has battery buffer.

Tritum PK350 claims dynamic load but I think from memory it is in steps of 25kW but I might be confusing models.

Alpitronics 105/300 models

EV box say they have it.

Delta claims dynamic load balancing on their more modern chargers

Pretty much everybody it seems.

micks_address

hi folks, heading to belfast tomorrow- is the esb ecars gone from castlebellingham? whats there in its place? might pop in for a coffee and top up on the way from north dublin

cheers,

mick