Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Anthracite

alloywheel wrote: »

You implied countries outside the EU, or even small countries, cannot do trade deals or trade successfully on the world market. How wrong you are.

Have you ever looked at a map and noted the respective positions of Singapore and the UK?

Can you tell us a little bit about the health, welfare and legal systems in Singapore?

prawnsambo

alloywheel wrote: »

But France got a massive rebate from the EU, which includes the UK.
On a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...d-to-know.html

France do not get a rebate. And stop pointing to the Torygraph for backup, it's not a reliable source. It's not even a working link.

igCorcaigh

So what happens now?

Is it just deadlocked so we count down the days with pointless gesturing? I haven't been following closely the past few days, it seems such a charade.

Enzokk

alloywheel wrote: »

But France got a massive rebate from the EU, which includes the UK.
On a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...d-to-know.html

You were asking whether France were contributing as much as the UK to the budget. Now you have changed it to net contributions and you are focusing on one year only. That is skewing statistics to suit you argument. Did you see my post about the contributions to the EU budget where for the period from 2007 to 2013 France was a bigger net average contributor to the EU budget than the UK?

CelticRambler

alloywheel wrote: »

And a lot of good France done us since that was written 100 years ago. How many jobs did she give us? How much does it trade with us? Did it appreciate tens of thousands of Irishmen (albeit in British uniforms) helping to rescue it from Nazism? Many paying the ultimate price. Did it contribute as much money in to the EU / EEC as our neighbouring island? No.

Well, France gave me a home, and is quite happy to let me take the job of a Frenchman, and I've found one of the most successful strategies for getting help in a tricky situation is to declare myself an Irishman. Being Irish in France is great.

sink wrote: »

However I believe that 'Project Fear' may become a self fulfilling prophecy. I believe that there will be panic by a large contingent of the population who will stock up on extra supplies prior to and in the immediate aftermath of D1ND, leading to shortages in supermarkets almost immediately. Think about what happened here before that big snow storm last year.

This will then be widely reported and hyped in the media leading so even more people become convinced that the shortages will continue, in turn leading to even more panic buying in a positive feedback loop. The real problem will only begin when the supermarkets can't get enough supply to restock in sufficient quantities to meet the increased demand and this is when a true national emergency will emerge.

That part in bold, I agree with - it's why I think there'll be period of post-Brexit euphoria, as everyone breathes an unjustified sigh of relief without realising that they're living off their reserves and the tail end of contracts that haven't been re-written. This is where the Theresa May is failing to govern - with seven weeks to go, still squabbling with her own party, and trying to sweet-talk her cronies into supporting something, anything, to avoid vacating her place as PM. Deal or no-deal, this time should have been spent preparing the country for what is to come.

Hurrache

alloywheel wrote: »

You implied countries outside the EU, or even small countries, cannot do trade deals or trade successfully on the world market. How wrong you are.

No I didn't, stop lying.

First Up

alloywheel wrote:

You implied countries outside the EU, or even small countries, cannot do trade deals or trade successfully on the world market. How wrong you are.

Did you notice where they export to?

alloywheel

Enzokk wrote: »

I fail to see what Singapore has to do with what I asked you though.

You asked:

Enzokk wrote: »

Have you ever thought what type of trade deals an independent Ireland would have been able to negotiate? With our market of 5 million people?

I pointed out that Singapore, a country with approx the same population as Ireland, is much more successful than Ireland, in many ways. It is certainly more financially successful. You seem to think that countries outside the EU cannot deal on the world stage or do trade deals.

Enzokk

prawnsambo wrote: »

France do not get a rebate. And stop pointing to the Torygraph for backup, it's not a reliable source. It's not even a working link.

Actually his link proves his own post wrong in that it shows a graph that France contributed more to the EU budget than the UK. He never specified he was talking about net contributions and this only came in later.

robindch

Folkstonian wrote: »

The backstop negotiated by Theresa May allows the European Union to contain Britain in an uncomfortable state of limbo in perpetuity until the British government agrees on a future trade agreement that gives Europe absolutely everything it desires.

Are you aware that there are two sides to every bilateral Trade Agreement? In the case of Brexit, this would be EU and the UK.

The UK can withhold agreement just as easily the EU can - so your apparent claim that the EU can hold "Britain in an uncomfortable state of limbo" is misleading, since the UK can hold the EU in an entirely identically "uncomfortable state of limbo" too.

BTW, I'm sure you're aware that the UK government (allegedly) speaks for the entirety of the UK, and not just the island of Britain as your poorly-phrased and inaccurate prose indicates.

J Mysterio

alloywheel wrote: »

I pointed out that Singapore, a country with approx the same population as Ireland, is much more successful than Ireland, in many ways. It is certainly more financially successful. You seem to think that countries outside the EU cannot deal on the world stage or do trade deals.

Singapore GDP - 323.9 Billion USD

Ireland GDP - 333.7 Billion USD

This thread is going to be nuked in the morning.

alloywheel

Enzokk wrote: »

You were asking whether France were contributing as much as the UK to the budget. Now you have changed it to net contributions and you are focusing on one year only.

Since the early seventies when it joined the EEC, the UK has been the second biggest net contributor to EEC / EU funds. No point talking about funds if you give with one hand and take back with the other.

alloywheel

J Mysterio wrote: »

Singapore GDP - 323.9 Billion USD

Ireland GDP - 333.7 Billion USD

This thread is going to be nuked in the morning.

But our GDP is skewed by multinationals laundering money / profits here that is earns elsewhere, like Apple. The Singapore economy is much more successful than Irelands, it does not owe 200 billion , nor has it received EEC / EU handouts like we have.

prawnsambo

alloywheel wrote: »

Since the early seventies when it joined the EEC, the UK has been the second biggest net contributor to EEC / EU funds. No point talking about funds if you give with one hand and take back with the other.

Which is exactly what the UK does. It takes a rebate of €5 billion every year. Along with a further €7 billion in direct payments for agriculture etc. You're talking nonsense.

Enzokk

alloywheel wrote: »

You asked:


I pointed out that Singapore, a country with approx the same population as Ireland, is much more successful than Ireland, in many ways. It is certainly more financially successful. You seem to think that countries outside the EU cannot deal on the world stage or do trade deals.

Yes and as my post also showed we are talking about two countries that may have a similar population but are different in other ways. How big is farming and agriculture in Singapore? How much of its food do they import?

As others have pointed out it is an apples to oranges comparison as Ireland is not a city state. So while you provided an interesting fact you did not answer the question. Let me ask again, what type of trade deal would we have been able to negotiate with Japan and what leverage would we have had in our talks with them if we were going at it alone?

Hurrache

alloywheel wrote: »

Since the early seventies when it joined the EEC, the UK has been the second biggest net contributor to EEC / EU funds. No point talking about funds if you give with one hand and take back with the other.

I remember when the goalposts you established were somewhere else.

Water John

EU believe that TM won't put Deal to HOC until late March.

'But officials believe it is increasingly likely that any renegotiated deal will only be put to the Commons at the end of March, necessitating even then an extension of the article 50 negotiating period to get legislation through parliament.'
Guradian.

Midlife

alloywheel wrote: »

But our GDP is skewed by multinationals laundering money / profits here that is earns elsewhere, like Apple. The Singapore economy is much more successful than Irelands, it does not owe 200 billion , nor has it received EEC / EU handouts like we have.

But Singapore's a tax haven.

Literally everything you say is wrong.

Then you shift the goalposts and say but....and then out comes something else wrong.

briany

Water John wrote: »

EU believe that TM won't put Deal to HOC until late March.

'But officials believe it is increasingly likely that any renegotiated deal will only be put to the Commons at the end of March, necessitating even then an extension of the article 50 negotiating period to get legislation through parliament.'
Guradian.

Can she put the deal to them at 7 PM March the 29th? Four hours to go?

Capt'n Midnight

alloywheel wrote: »

on a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Fat lot of thanks it got for putting in money, year after year, for 40 years.

The UK can still cancel Article 50
Or it can go ahead with the WA which keeps it trading in the EU like now.
Even with those options in place UK tax revenue is down £22Bn a year.
Hard Brexit would be worse by all accounts.


It's like saying
"I can save €1,000 on my annual commute by changing to a job that puts €2,500 less into my pocket"

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

EU believe that TM won't put Deal to HOC until late March.

'But officials believe it is increasingly likely that any renegotiated deal will only be put to the Commons at the end of March, necessitating even then an extension of the article 50 negotiating period to get legislation through parliament.'
Guradian.

Even if they agreed to her deal in December the time to get all the legislation passed before 29 March would have been tight. Taking it down to the wire means there is almost certainly no time unless they rush through important legislation that should not be rushed. So when May was saying today that she expects the UK to leave by the 29th March and no extension would be needed she is once again lying and she knows it.

Also, if she forces parliament to vote for her deal due to the pressure of no deal, what is to stop them from frustrating her when she has to pass legislation to make it law in the UK? She is playing such a dangerous game that the conclusion I come to is that she wants to crash out. Otherwise she would have been honest on the extension that would be needed.

Oafley Jones

I’m getting seriously pissed off with this cavalcade of BS artists derailing pages after pages with their nonsense. And what’s so infuriating about it is there is a solution on these very boards that would mitigate the worst of this. But thankfully we’ve saved the Premiership football discussion as a platform from trolls spreading disinformation.

Charles Babbage

Anthracite wrote: »

Have you ever looked at a map and noted the respective positions of Singapore and the UK?

Can you tell us a little bit about the health, welfare and legal systems in Singapore?

The health sysem is excellent, contract law is based on British system.
They don't bother with welfare.

road_high

First Up wrote: »

You could look it up.

We export about five and a half billion euro's worth to France and there's 350 French companies with operations in Ireland.

Exactly. Ireland’s relationship with France is very much in step with our geographical closeness and naturally one of our top trading partners.
To minimize that into “what have the French ever done for us?” is facile.

Imreoir2

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

UK Attorney Gen is coming to Dublin tomorrow now as well.

BAD IDEA. Ireland should keep negotiations in Brussels and not allow bilateral engagement on the WA & backstop which is precisely what the tories want.

Leo has made a point recently of stressing that the talks are between the EU and the UK. I expect he will make a point of not discussing details of Brexit during May's visit. It could well be that atempts to discuss Brexit will be stonewalled and discussions will instead be directed to other issues like getting Stormont up and running again. The expection on the UK side will be that some breakthrough might be forthcoming from a one on one with Ireland, refusing to talk about it in detail on a bilateral basis other than to reiterate the common position and call for the UK to set out what they want will further turn the heat back on the UK and heap more pressure on the HoC to come to a decision.

alloywheel

Enzokk wrote: »

Yes and as my post also showed we are talking about two countries that may have a similar population but are different in other ways. How big is farming and agriculture in Singapore? How much of its food do they import?

We should have an advantage here so in Ireland, given all our land and natural resources , fisheries, tourism etc compared to tiny Singapore...yet they are a much more successful economy than us. The point is countries outside the EU can trade successfully on the world stage, even relatively small countries like Singapore.

Capt'n Midnight

alloywheel wrote: »

But our GDP is skewed by multinationals laundering money / profits here that is earns elsewhere, like Apple. The Singapore economy is much more successful than Irelands, it does not owe 200 billion , nor has it received EEC / EU handouts like we have.

There are three main types of Tax Haven.

There's the US Virgin islands where US companies stash cash until there's a tax amnesty and then send it home.
Foreigners need not apply which leaves two.


There's the funny islands and crown dependencies of the UK which together account for 50% of global tax avoidance.

And then there's the ones in the EU/EFTA like us and the Swiss.

Singapore and others are smaller fish and don't have a strong protector.


If the EU starts leaning on companies to have legit Tax arrangements the UK ones may loose recognition. It will cut back on the Sark Lark and such things. Gibraltar and Channel islands and those Caribbean islands will loose a huge income source.

alloywheel

alloywheel wrote: »

But our GDP is skewed by multinationals laundering money / profits here that is earns elsewhere, like Apple. The Singapore economy is much more successful than Irelands, it does not owe 200 billion , nor has it received EEC / EU handouts like we have.

And Singapore is squeaky clean?
How much does Singapore owe?

alloywheel

prawnsambo wrote: »

Which is exactly what the UK does. It takes a rebate of €5 billion every year. Along with a further €7 billion in direct payments for agriculture etc. You're talking nonsense.

If you look it up you will see it is the UK who has put the most in to the EEC / EU, after Germany. As I said, and I gave you the link, for the year, "on a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out."

What part of "€10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out" do you not understand?

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And Singapore is squeaky clean?
How much does Singapore owe?

Ireland debt to GDP - 68%
Singapore debt to GDP - 110%

Really off topic though. I think I need to divert my attention. Thread derailed by bollocks.