Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

copperhead

alloywheel wrote: »

So we have lost power and independence to Brussels. The EU will bully us too.

I'd imagine that we as a country have never been In a more powerful position within the EU , surely the EU will be trying there best to keep us onside

tuxy

alloywheel wrote: »

So we have lost power and independence to Brussels. The EU will bully us too.

There are rules for every member of the single market just like there are rules for WTO members.
If another single market member was to compromise the single market by not securing a border we would support measures to rectify it.
It's hardly bullying to insist a country stands by legal obligation that it has made.

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ellenjoelle/status/1093335514105688064



This demonstrates how you are being far too confident about Eu support and solidarity.
The single roi flag flying is nothing to do with solidarity - or if it is then you want to panic because today it was replaced with two flags one of which was the UK flag. I assume it goes up when the particular pm is in town.
I worry for you guys and how much confidence you are putting in the Eu.

It is a great picture which encapsulates the EU support for Ireland anyway even if it is protocol for those visiting

FrancieBrady

briany wrote: »

It's divisive language. It probably shouldn't have been said. It will give Euro-sceptics more ammo.

But Tusk was only saying it about those Brexiteers who promoted the thing without a plan in place.

So, most of them.


Imagine some leading advocate of Brexit reading the tweet and going, "Hey! I promoted Brexit without a plan! He's talking about me!! How DARE he call me on my recklessness!!! :mad::mad::mad: "

More ammo?

They have been manning the ramparts for 2 years and are on the edge of capitulating and going off a cliff edge they are just beginning to see when it is too late.

Quin_Dub

##Mod Note##


Before everyone gets settled in for a night of discussion on Brexit , I just thought I'd quote my post from earlier this morning as given the speed that this thread is moving many of you may have missed it.

If I have to do the same clean-up tomorrow morning as I did today , I'll be adding some cards and bans to the mix.

Keep it civil and on topic please..

Thanks

Quin_Dub wrote: »

All,

This is a very fast moving thread , I just read through ~20 pages of new posts since yesterday evening and I've had to remove over a dozen posts that were either petty personal digs or glib one-liners.

Not good enough.

Please keep the standards up as we continue the debate.

Thanks

A Dub in Glasgo

alloywheel wrote: »

The UK does not want a hard border. They are right to try to give us every chance to talk, but if Leo continues to be stubborn, we have only ourselves to blame when the EU tells us to erect a hard border. Wait and see.

Maybe you can take your choice here

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109356192&postcount=1314

blanch152

alloywheel wrote: »

The UK does not want a hard border. They are right to try to give us every chance to talk, but if Leo continues to be stubborn, we have only ourselves to blame when the EU tells us to erect a hard border. Wait and see.



+1. The EU is going to screw Ireland, same as they done with the credit bubble / repaying the bondholders, wait and see.

I always find it difficult to understand why people complain about the "EU telling us" to do anything.

We joined the EU out of our own free will. We worked with the other members of the EU to create a set of rules for the members, if we didn't like the rules we could have used our veto, or voted down the Treaties in various referenda. We didn't, so we have signed up to the rules willingly. We also agreed in one of those discussions to appoint the Commission and the ECJ, one to implement the rules and the other to adjudicate on what the rules mean.

So when the EU is telling Ireland to do something, it is really Ireland telling Ireland to do something. Or to put it another way, it is Ireland reminding Ireland of what we have agreed to do. If you join a club and at the agm you vote for a strict black tie dress code in the bar, and you turn up in shorts and sandals, you expect the maitre d' to throw you out. No protesting about why the club is refusing you entry. You agreed to the rules, follow them or get lost.

At least the Brexiteer have this weird honesty of not wanting to follow the rules and leave of their own accord (even if it is like someone quitting a club with a nice warm fire to stand outside in Alaska on a cold January night).

Infini

alloywheel wrote: »

The UK does not want a hard border. They are right to try to give us every chance to talk, but if Leo continues to be stubborn, we have only ourselves to blame when the EU tells us to erect a hard border. Wait and see.

It's not Leo's fault or problem if British Politicians abandon their responsibilities and intentionally drive their country off the cliff of epic failure because too many of them cant comprehend basic facts and information.

2 years,
Countless hours of negotiation.
Preliminary Agreement made between both side.
Westminster rejects, does not come up with alternatives.
Refuses blatantly obvious choice of cancelling this farce.
Crashes out because they can't cop on.
No one else is making them do this.
They created this,
They refused to be realistic,
They own this.
Noone else not the EU not the Irish Government, The British.

Noone but the British government can be held responsible for their failure to govern properly. None but the British Government is responsible if they crash out in the biggest failure of politics in decades and if they do they WILL be held responsible for the consequences of it because people don't take kindly to blatent incompetence and abdication of responsibility that creates messes in other peoples back yards.

The only people I will feel sorry for over there are those who voted remain and who simply could not do anything to stop this madness. If they crash out I have zero sympathy for Brexiteer supports.

Professor Moriarty

Very interesting piece by Newsnight's Nick Watt from Dublin last night. He interviewed all of the opposition leaders bar Mary Lou, i.e. Martin, Shortall and Howlin. The consensus on Brexit was remarkable and each leader came across as measured and thoughtful. Watt then finished with Bobby McDonagh, an ex-ambassador to the UK. In the context of Ireland becoming more European, and further embedded in the EU having lived in Britain's shadow for centuries, he quoted from Emmet's speech from the Dock prior to being executed:

"When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth, then and not till then, let my epitaph be written."

tuxy

Was there any talk of the Brady amendment today? You would think that May would be eager to explain in detail exactly what "alternative arrangements" means. It should be very easy for her to explain this as Graham Brady will have briefed her in great detail at this stage.

alloywheel

Folkstonian wrote: »

I can absolutely see why the limbo status of the backstop as agreed to by May has been met with such concern in parliament.

Im sure everyone in the commons understands the importance of a frictionless border for Irish society but there must be genuine worries that Europe will use it as to extract every little concession they could in the future relationship talks

Correct, and a deal where one side is bullied and does not vote in acceptance of, is not a fair deal.

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Funny how Ireland and EU refuse to budge on the back stop, saying it's there to prevent a hard border, but in not budging and excepting an alternative proposal it will be them that are responsible for an absolute hard border. UK seem right in this case, for EU to say we will never negotiate is simple wrong. You should always compromise.

No compromise from the EU, only gloating to make things as difficult as possible for the UK, who wants its independence. Just as we wanted our independence 100 years ago, I can understand how the UK wants its independence now, plus not having to continue to fund the other 27 as much.

I see Brexit means UK growth is only forecast to be 1% next year, but thats better than Italy, already in recession. I wonder what effect Brexit will have on the exceptionally high unemployment rates in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Listening to the one sided media here, you would think it is all doom and gloom for the UK.

tuxy

alloywheel wrote: »

No compromise from the EU, only gloating to make things as difficult as possible for the UK, who wants its independence. Just as we wanted our independence 100 years ago, I can understand how the UK wants its independence now, plus not having to continue to fund the other 27 as much.

The EU and the UK have spent over two years negotiating and the EU made a number of concessions while May refused to move on her red lines. This agreement has been ratified by the EU. Now May is back saying she needs more to get it past the HOC but she does not know what she needs, it's up to the EU to find out what the HOC wants. Very strange behaviour by the PM.

An Ciarraioch

tuxy wrote: »

Was there any talk of the Brady amendment today? You would think that May would be eager to explain in detail exactly what "alternative arrangements" means. It should be very easy for her to explain this as Graham Brady will have briefed her in great detail at this stage.

The fact she promised the MEPs that there would be a backstop suggests it's been quietly ditched - she can now say "We pushed for alternative arrangements, but got nowhere, so it's back to the backstop" .

Anthracite

downcow wrote: »

I just am surprised how some on here from ireland can see unrelated stuff as evidence of how much Eu loves ireland

We are the EU.

Tacitus Kilgore

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct, and a deal where one side is bullied and does not vote in acceptance of, is not a fair deal.

. Just as we wanted our independence 100 years ago, I can understand how the UK wants its independence now, plus not having to continue to fund the other 27 as much.

Right, so the UK joining the EU of its own free will and prospering socially & economically for 40 years is directly comparable to Ireland being colonised and brutalised by the British Empire for hundreds of years.

Lovely.

Seth Brundle

Infini wrote: »

Countless hours of negotiation.

I’d disagree with that.
David Davis only spent four hours negotiating in 2018...
https://www.ft.com/content/9e3aacf0-7b9c-11e8-bc55-50daf11b720d

Hurrache

alloywheel wrote: »

No compromise from the EU,

Would you just please stop posting nonsense which has already been explained to you and others multiple times over.

You're not on Twitter shouting into a void or on a echo chamber Facebook group, you will continuously be called out on nonsense

Hurrache

alloywheel wrote: »

I see Brexit means UK growth is only forecast to be 1% next year, but thats better than Italy, already in recession. I wonder what effect Brexit will have on the exceptionally high unemployment rates in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Listening to the one sided media here, you would think it is all doom and gloom for the UK.

You take your wins when you can ey?
https://twitter.com/baphometx/status/1093576082123575296?s=19

Anthracite

alloywheel wrote: »

No compromise from the EU

The backstop is the compromise. They worked on this for years. Were you elsewhere, perhaps?

alloywheel

josip wrote: »

Armageddon isn't being forecast by all UK economic think tanks in the event of a Hard Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/06/uk-can-avoid-no-deal-brexit-recession-says-economic-forecaster

https://www.niesr.ac.uk/

I believe Brexit is a bad idea and was decided upon for the wrong reasons.
Nevertheless, there are independent bodies who judge that it won't be economic disaster.

It is interesting to see sterling is more or less the same as it was a few years ago.

n.b The British were proved correct in keeping their own currency, not adapting the euro at the time. That way they did not suffered the same banking bust and property crash as we did in 2007 / 2008. And they were able to help bail us out.

lawred2

Anthracite wrote: »

The backstop is the compromise. They worked on this for years. Were you elsewhere, perhaps?

'Compromise' to the reregs really means facilitating the UK getting all the benefits for none of the costs or responsibilities..

Anything short of that is intransigence and bullying

woohoo!!!

In the event that no deal crash out results, do people think that May will resign?

Anthracite

lawred2 wrote: »

'Compromise' to the reregs really means facilitating the UK getting all the benefits for none of the costs or responsibilities..

Anything short of that is intransigence and bullying

Ah yes, I missed the join date. My bad.

prawnsambo

alloywheel wrote: »

Correct, and a deal where one side is bullied and does not vote in acceptance of, is not a fair deal.

No compromise from the EU, only gloating to make things as difficult as possible for the UK, who wants its independence. Just as we wanted our independence 100 years ago, I can understand how the UK wants its independence now, plus not having to continue to fund the other 27 as much.

I see Brexit means UK growth is only forecast to be 1% next year, but thats better than Italy, already in recession. I wonder what effect Brexit will have on the exceptionally high unemployment rates in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc? Listening to the one sided media here, you would think it is all doom and gloom for the UK.

You clearly don't read the Daily Telegraph comments sections. You might change your mind about who's got the bullying and gloating markets cornered. At least in what they're pleased to call their minds anyway.

lawred2

alloywheel wrote: »

It is interesting to see sterling is more or less the same as it was a few years ago.

n.b The British were proved correct in keeping their own currency, not adapting the euro at the time. That way they did not suffered the same banking bust and property crash as we did in 2007 / 2008. And they were able to help bail us out.

It's gone from 1.40 in 2016 to hovering around 1.10 today

What happened in 2016?

lawred2

woohoo!!! wrote: »

In the event that no deal crash out results, do people think that May will resign?

But she'll have delivered Brexit.

And Brexit means Brexit.

An Ciarraioch

woohoo!!! wrote: »

In the event that no deal crash out results, do people think that May will resign?

She'll probably resign of her own accord soon after Brexit is completed, in any event.

briany

lawred2 wrote: »

What happened in 2016?

A lot more spending on Amazon.co.uk coming from the Eurozone.

CelticRambler

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why do you think roaming charges were removed in the first place? Simply because Telco companies didn't like many money?

Of course 30th March won't see it but you'll see it happening, as you said, slowly. To get a lower monthly bill you give up free roaming for example.

Yet you treat it as project fear when you also agree that it is likely to happen

"Project Fear" is predicting that the UK will go into meltdown on the 30th March if there's a no-deal Brexit, and these roaming charges headlines are part of that. As far as the vast majority of the British population is concerned, the UK will not go into meltdown on ND+1. There will be "no change" - there will still be food on the shelves, the trains will still run, schools will be open, ambulances will turn up and take patients to hospital, and few (if any) mobile phone users will pay a penny more for using their phone.

For us on the outside, that is the real danger: Brexiteers bragging that it was all a load of scaremongering, Remainers thinking that things aren't as bad as they feared, and Don'tKnow/PreferNotToAnswers deciding that it all worked out in the end. So none of them will be putting pressure on their MPs to get back to the negotiating table in a hurry. That doesn't mean there aren't problems ahead, but turning a statement of already well-known fact into a screaming headline is not helpful.

In an earlier post, I predicted that it'll be the end of April before the "man in the street" wakes up to the first real inconveniences of Brexit reality; it'll still take time, though, for everyone to feel the pain.

Anthracite

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

She'll probably resign of her own accord soon after Brexit is completed, in any event.

Most likely she'll instate a three line whip to vote no confidence in herself, as she did with her own deal.