When did Gemma O Doherty go batshyt crazy?

Auntie Semite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you agree then that what you were taught was not linked to reality.

We were not taught anything about transgenderism as at the time basically nobody publicly identified as trans. No children whatsoever declared an interest in switching gender so it wasn't an issue. People seem to forget that. If you went back in time 20 years and explained that in 2019 children were switching genders they simply would not believe you or think the world had gone nuts. Why? Because it was considered extremely rare.
The only trans person most people knew of back then was Lauren Harries who was quite famous at the time as transgender ism was considered so unusual and rare. I remember watching a documentary about her with my mother many years ago.

baby and crumble

Just because something is not spoken about, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Trans people have existed for centuries. Trans, non-binary and "two-spirit" individuals have been quietly living their lives since the dawn of time, dealing as best they could with discrimination, and just trying to get on with things.

why do you think no kids wanted to talk about it? because they'd get locked up because people assumed they were insane.

To say something didn't exist because the general public didn't know about it is ignorant in the extreme.

ohnonotgmail

Auntie Semite wrote: »

We were not taught anything about transgenderism as at the time basically nobody publicly identified as trans. No children whatsoever declared an interest in switching gender so it wasn't an issue. People seem to forget that. If you went back in time 20 years and explained that in 2019 children were switching genders they simply would not believe you or think the world had gone nuts. Why? Because it was considered extremely rare.
The only trans person most people knew of back then was Lauren Harries who was quite famous at the time as transgender ism was considered so unusual and rare. I remember watching a documentary about her with my mother many years ago.

Well that is bull****. there have been people who identified publicly as trans longer than i've been alive and i'm a lot older than you.

Auntie Semite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Well that is bull****. there have been people who identified publicly as trans longer than i've been alive and i'm a lot older than you.

Were talking about Ireland here, very few people came out as Transgender in Ireland in the 80s. They may have been in private but certainly not in public. I realise I should've said almost nobody rather than nobody.

baby and crumble

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Were talking about Ireland here, very few people came out as Transgender in Ireland in the 80s. They may have been in private but certainly not in public. I realise I should've said almost nobody rather than nobody.

My point above still stands. So what? Trust me a lot of people in the 80's didn't come out about ANYTHING thanks to the societal pressures of the time.

Homosexuality wasn't decriminalised here until 1993, for example.

Also, I think you fundamentally are confused about being transgender, as opposed to a cross-dresser etc. If you are trans, you are trans. It's highly likely you knew then and know now people who are trans. You just don't know it, because they don't talk about it, because for a lot of people it's an intensely private thing- and no wonder, given how much people like Gemma and others like to boil being trans down entirely to hormones and surgery.

Auntie Semite

baby and crumble wrote: »

Just because something is not spoken about, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Trans people have existed for centuries. Trans, non-binary and "two-spirit" individuals have been quietly living their lives since the dawn of time, dealing as best they could with discrimination, and just trying to get on with things.

why do you think no kids wanted to talk about it? because they'd get locked up because people assumed they were insane.

To say something didn't exist because the general public didn't know about it is ignorant in the extreme.

Yes I understand a tiny minority of individuals across all cultures believed themselves to be the opposite gender than the body they were born with. This was indeed regarded as a mental illness (gender dysphoria today) and was treated as such and sometimes that treatment was barbaric. I believe it is a form of mental illness and not something that should be encouraged in children.

ohnonotgmail

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Yes I understand a tiny minority of individuals across all cultures believed themselves to be the opposite gender than the body they were born with. This was indeed regarded as a mental illness (gender dysphoria today) and was treated as such and sometimes that treatment was barbaric. I believe it is a form of mental illness and not something that should be encouraged in children.

You can believe what you like. Just dont get upset because others want to teach stuff outside your narrowminded view of the world. It isn't the 1970's any more.

Auntie Semite

baby and crumble wrote: »

My point above still stands. So what? Trust me a lot of people in the 80's didn't come out about ANYTHING thanks to the societal pressures of the time.

Homosexuality wasn't decriminalised here until 1993, for example.

Also, I think you fundamentally are confused about being transgender, as opposed to a cross-dresser etc. If you are trans, you are trans. It's highly likely you knew then and know now people who are trans. You just don't know it, because they don't talk about it, because for a lot of people it's an intensely private thing- and no wonder, given how much people like Gemma and others like to boil being trans down entirely to hormones and surgery.

Well this is where the conversation gets messy (and where I worry I will be banned)
I believe a tiny minority of people (true transgenderism) suffer from gender dysphoria which is a form of mental illness but I also believe this mental condition is actively being promoted and encouraged as a lifestyle/identity to both children and adults alike.
I see the promotion of transgender ideology as no different than promoting anorexia.
If a young girl with anorexia presented to a doctor should the doctor tell her 'hey your perception of your body image is correct. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, here are some diet pills keep going you go girl!
Of course not it is highly irresponsible and I believe it is highly irresponsible to do the same with trans people.

ohnonotgmail

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Well this is where the conversation gets messy (and where I worry I will be banned)
I believe a tiny minority of people (true transgenderism) suffer from gender dysphoria which is a form of mental illness but I also believe this mental condition is actively being promoted and encouraged as a lifestyle/identity to both children and adults alike.
I see the promotion of transgender ideology as no different than promoting anorexia.
If a young girl with anorexia presented to a doctor should the doctor tell her 'hey your perception of your body image is correct. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, here are some diet pills keep going you go girl!
Of course not it is highly irresponsible a day I believe it is highly irresponsible to do the same with trans people.

Perhaps you should let the qualified medical people make those decisions. You are not qualified to make them.

Hotblack Desiato

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Yes I understand a tiny minority of individuals across all cultures believed themselves to be the opposite gender than the body they were born with. This was indeed regarded as a mental illness (gender dysphoria today) and was treated as such and sometimes that treatment was barbaric. I believe it is a form of mental illness and not something that should be encouraged in children.

Ignorant people used to say homosexuality was a mental illness, too.

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Both the Catholic and Muslim religions believe sex is for procreation only and therefore all non procreational sex including masturbation is 'unnatural'

Which is a very warped viewpoint to be teaching kids, and not compatible with the 20th century (artificial contraception) never mind the 21st.

baby and crumble

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Yes I understand a tiny minority of individuals across all cultures believed themselves to be the opposite gender than the body they were born with. This was indeed regarded as a mental illness (gender dysphoria today) and was treated as such and sometimes that treatment was barbaric. I believe it is a form of mental illness and not something that should be encouraged in children.

Surely then, if you think it's a mental illness, it should be treated the same way as a mental illness; by educating our youth on what it's like, so that compassion can be found? (Just FYI I think your opinion is terrible and rooted in misinformation - being trans is no loner regarded as a mental illness by the WHO, for example).

Again, I'd like to take you back to 35 years ago. Homosexuality was classified as a mental illness.

In 1908, the word 'autism' was synonymous with schizophrenia - it wasn't until 1980 that is was separated from schizophrenia.

my point being, as I've said multiple times, is that just because something was once defined as a disorder, or as wrong, doesn't mean that it always is. And we are doing the children and adults of the future a massive disservice if we don't acknowledge that change is necessary.

Parents of the early 20th century would have a conniption if they saw some of the things we do as a society now. Time moves on.

Auntie Semite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You can believe what you like. Just dont get upset because others want to teach stuff outside your narrowminded view of the world. It isn't the 1970's any more.

That is neither here nor there there have been many times throughout history where a society believed it was being modern and ethical and the actions it took are now considered to be extreme, barbaric, irresponsible etc
From Nazi Germany, Eugenics, Racial 'science' lobotomies, Swedish sterilisation programs the list is endless.
I believe and am certain that this promotion of transgenderism to children will be viewed as insane and backward by future generations.

baby and crumble

Auntie Semite wrote: »

If a young girl with anorexia presented to a doctor should the doctor tell her 'hey your perception of your body image is correct. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, here are some diet pills keep going you go girl!
Of course not it is highly irresponsible and I believe it is highly irresponsible to do the same with trans people.

What do you think happens when children (or adults) who start the process of transitioning go to a doctor?

What you're suggesting does not happen.

I would suggest you educate yourself on the process of transitioning before you make absolutely wrong statements like you've just made.

Auntie Semite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ignorant people used to say homosexuality was a mental illness, too.




Which is a very warped viewpoint to be teaching kids, and not compatible with the 20th century (artificial contraception) never mind the 21st.

Homosexuality was only really viewed as a mentall illness in a small portion of history, namely the late 19th and through some of the 20th century. It was always known and acknowledged (if not accepted) throughout most of human history.

ohnonotgmail

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Homosexuality was only really viewed as a mentall illness in a small portion of history, namely the late 19th and through some of the 20th century. It was always known and acknowledged (if not accepted) throughout most of human history.

It was listed as a mental illness in the DSM until 1973. That is in my lifetime. And by not accepted i presume you mean criminalised and those found committing homosexual acts locked up or chemically castrated.

Auntie Semite

baby and crumble wrote: »

What do you think happens when children (or adults) who start the process of transitioning go to a doctor?

What you're suggesting does not happen.

I would suggest you educate yourself on the process of transitioning before you make absolutely wrong statements like you've just made.

I don't get you, if a doctor offers or advises options of physical alterations to the body (surgical or hormonal) in order that the body might come to reflect what the mind percieves then this is the same as facilitating an anorexic. As in facilitating the optimal body shape the sufferer wishes to have.

ohnonotgmail

Auntie Semite wrote: »

I don't get you, if a doctor offers or advises options of physical alterations to the body (surgical or hormonal) in order that the body might come to reflect what the mind percieves then this is the same as facilitating an anorexic. As in facilitating the optimal body shape the sufferer wishes to have.

careful now, your ignorance is showing.

Auntie Semite

Odhinn wrote: »

Nope.

Well some sections of Muslims adhere to this but I am not an expert so if you can explain it then I will accept your explanation.
As for Catholicism, the doctrine does clearly state that sex is for procreation only. It can be pleasurable of course but the goal must be for procreation and not merely pleasure.

Hotblack Desiato

skooterblue2 wrote: »

So you are proposing closing and buying out many fine schools? With what money? I wish I could have gone to religious school instead of state "tech" with politically appointed teachers (ie they couldnt get jobs anywhere else).

The irony is that most "tech" schools have a religious ethos - a few COI and a lot RC - and have a priest on the board of management and compulsory religious instruction.

RCC was/is perfectly fine with social segregation as well as religious :

At the top they run their private fee-paying schools and it's still regarded as a ticket to being one of the 'elite' in society - pots of money required of course

In the middle, religious-run but state funded schools of varying quality, I have heard of many cases where even within the same school children from a more privileged background were separated from and treated and educated much better than the kids from a less privileged background.

At the bottom unfortunately, in parental perception and as well as teacher perception were the 'tech' schools - generally in low-income areas or set up to absorb the kids the religious orders didn't want going to their schools. The RCC couldn't be bothered running schools for these kids, but of course still insisted on a place on the management board and insisting on compulsory religious instruction etc.

So the self-appointed moral guardian of this society, the RC church, was perfectly fine with not just insisting that kids be kept apart on the basis of religion, but also on how well off (or how well in with the local priest) their parents were. The sins of the father and all that ... is that what christianity was supposed to be about?

Problem is, and this happens a lot with church-run schools, too - is that once a school gets a reputation as being poorer than others in the area it becomes a vicious cycle - parents who care about education look to send their kids elsewhere. The 'better' schools in the area set entrance exams so they can pick and choose who to admit. Ambitious and competent teachers will try to get into the better schools too (unless they have a social conscience far bigger than mine) - it's selfish, as are the parents, but it's human nature.

Those with money and connections have choices, those without don't.

Things are changing though - I was at an open day a few months ago for a modern "tech" school with ET/ETB joint patronage - open a couple of years, brand new top quality facilities, young energetic and highly motivated teachers, and an excellent principal who took the time at the end of the evening to speak with us personally. This school has no religious instruction at all, yet it has strong policies on equality, fairness, anti-bullying and developing the potential of each and every child.

I'd be very happy to have my children go there, but we probably won't get them in - we're just outside the catchment area and it's substantially oversubscribed.

Like I said, times have changed...

Meanwhile in our area there are only two secondary schools - 1 RC boys school and 1 RC girls school - both run by religious orders with a history of child abuse - both with average but not great reputations - both with compulsory religious indoctrination and religious services, and ridiculous uniform policies (no trousers for girls for instance) but that's probably what we'll be stuck with.

You might like to tell me what value these religious orders are adding to the schools concerned - it's certainly nothing monetary and as far as I can see the religious 'ethos' adds nothing worthwhile and quite a lot which is undesirable at best and damaging at worst.

Auntie Semite

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It was listed as a mental illness in the DSM until 1973. That is in my lifetime. And by not accepted i presume you mean criminalised and those found committing homosexual acts locked up or chemically castrated.

I said in the 20th century it was regarded as a mental illness.
Yes that is what I meant by not accepted. But for most of history it was regarded (by societies so inclined) as a sinful act, dirty, shameful etc rather than a mental illness.
I'm not saying this was right morally or ethically btw

baby and crumble

Auntie Semite wrote: »

I don't get you, if a doctor offers or advises options of physical alterations to the body (surgical or hormonal) in order that the body might come to reflect what the mind percieves then this is the same as facilitating an anorexic. As in facilitating the optimal body shape the sufferer wishes to have.

But it's not a simple process. You seem to think a kid says "i'm a girl' and 2 months later they're prepping for surgery. That's not what happens. There is significant work done to ensure that surgery is the right option for that person.

Also, there are many many trans folks who never get surgery. At all. So your point there makes zero sense.

Also equating anorexia and transgenderism is really quite objectionable. The majority of reputable studies I have read (actually I'd say probably all) come to the conclusion that transitioning (whether medically or socially, or both) improves the trans persons overall health and wellbeing, including their mental health. So in supporting transition- when it has been established that the person is trans - doctors are saving the health and often the lives of their patients. In supporting anorexia, that is distinctly not the case.

i also don't want to talk too much about anorexia because it's not something I know much about, and it's eating Disorder Week, so it's not great timing to be giving out misinformation on the subject.

Auntie Semite

baby and crumble wrote: »

But it's not a simple process. You seem to think a kid says "i'm a girl' and 2 months later they're prepping for surgery. That's not what happens. There is significant work done to ensure that surgery is the right option for that person.

Also, there are many many trans folks who never get surgery. At all. So your point there makes zero sense.

Also equating anorexia and transgenderism is really quite objectionable. The majority of reputable studies I have read (actually I'd say probably all) come to the conclusion that transitioning (whether medically or socially, or both) improves the trans persons overall health and wellbeing, including their mental health. So in supporting transition- when it has been established that the person is trans - doctors are saving the health and often the lives of their patients. In supporting anorexia, that is distinctly not the case.

i also don't want to talk too much about anorexia because it's not something I know much about, and it's eating Disorder Week, so it's not great timing to be giving out misinformation on the subject.

I don't think it is a quick or simple process I never said it was. I'm aware that there are trans people who don't transition I'm speaking specifically about children and the dangers of offering such options at such a young and impressionable age.
I'm sure having a wide breadth of knowledge on the subject you are aware that there are many many post op trans people who deeply regret having transitioned and experience suicidal ideation and actually commit suicide over it. In fact this aspect of trans suicides is frequently ignored. These people never seem to feature in these discussions.

skooterblue2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Perhaps you should let the qualified medical people make those decisions. You are not qualified to make them.

I think Professor Tony Attwood thinks its "Erronous Logic" and covered under ASD.

baby and crumble

Auntie Semite wrote: »

I don't think it is a quick or simple process I never said it was. I'm aware that there are trans people who don't transition I'm speaking specifically about children and the dangers of offering such options at such a young and impressionable age.
I'm sure having a wide breadth of knowledge on the subject you are aware that there are many many post op trans people who deeply regret having transitioned and experience suicidal ideation and actually commit suicide over it. In fact this aspect of trans suicides is frequently ignored. These people never seem to feature in these discussions.

Of course there are people who regret their transition. That needs to be looked at, however given the numbers of those who transition successfully and experience it as a positive vastly outnumber those who don’t. The question then becomes why do those people transition when it’s not the right thing for them? Do they feel pressured, was insufficient work done with them to prepare them, are there unscrupulous medical professionals practicing in the area? They’re all very valid questions. But it does seem that all the research to date does not point to this being a common occurance. So those who want to hold up the few examples as doomsday examples to say that being trans is wrong are misguided. And they add to a panic that honestly doesn’t have the research or even anecdotal eveidende to support it.

Re kids: like I have said multiple times, no child can go for surgical interventions I order to transition. It’s illegal. They can socially transition but NOT surgically. So why are you bringing that up?

ohnonotgmail

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I think Professor Tony Attwood thinks its "Erronous Logic" and covered under ASD.

Does he? I thought he did a study that showed that there is a higher prevalence of ASD in people with gender dysphoria not that gender dysphoria was ASD

skooterblue2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Does he? I thought he did a study that showed that there is a higher prevalence of ASD in people with gender dysphoria not that gender dysphoria was ASD

The new (relative) diagnosis of ASD (which I disagree with one umbrella name covering a wide and varied conditions), There can be a number of conditions. It comes from being unhappy with ones circumstances and if the situation would change then the individual would be happier. This doesnt work of course and in fact leads to a down right dangerous route of thought(eg. McNamaras Morons). Just because you want to do something doesnt mean you should or worse encouraged. People who have this gender dysmorphia often self harm and go on to attempt suicide. After the transition they continue to self harm etc. It doesnt make the individual happier at all. In the interim, unnatural hormones have been introduced into the body and dangerous surgery has been performed.

ohnonotgmail

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The new (relative) diagnosis of ASD (which I disagree with one umbrella name covering a wide and varied conditions), There can be a number of conditions. It comes from being unhappy with ones circumstances and if the situation would change then the individual would be happier. This doesnt work of course and in fact leads to a down right dangerous route of thought(eg. McNamaras Morons). Just because you want to do something doesnt mean you should or worse encouraged. People who have this gender dysmorphia often self harm and go on to attempt suicide. After the transition they continue to self harm etc. It doesnt make the individual happier at all. In the interim, unnatural hormones have been introduced into the body and dangerous surgery has been performed.

are you applying that to all people who transition?

skooterblue2

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are you applying that to all people who transition?

Not to individuals but the statistic before and after do not change in regards to self harm so I guess so. There was no change in behaviour, people didnt change behaviour so there was no benefit. (I think it was 96% self harmed and 40% attempted to commit suicide) that is in a study of 400.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/96-of-transgender-youth-engage-in-self-harm-study

Jmsg

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It was listed as a mental illness in the DSM until 1973. That is in my lifetime. And by not accepted i presume you mean criminalised and those found committing homosexual acts locked up or chemically castrated.

If regarding homosexuality as a mental illness is offensive to homosexuals shouldn't this in turn be offensive to people with mental illnesses?

Auntie Semite

baby and crumble wrote: »

Of course there are people who regret their transition. That needs to be looked at, however given the numbers of those who transition successfully and experience it as a positive vastly outnumber those who don’t. The question then becomes why do those people transition when it’s not the right thing for them? Do they feel pressured, was insufficient work done with them to prepare them, are there unscrupulous medical professionals practicing in the area? They’re all very valid questions. But it does seem that all the research to date does not point to this being a common occurance. So those who want to hold up the few examples as doomsday examples to say that being trans is wrong are misguided. And they add to a panic that honestly doesn’t have the research or even anecdotal eveidende to support it.

Re kids: like I have said multiple times, no child can go for surgical interventions I order to transition. It’s illegal. They can socially transition but NOT surgically. So why are you bringing that up?

There is a push for it in the states (some states) and I expect the same will happen here
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/New-Medical-Guidelines-Open-Door-for-Transgender-Children-to-Begin-Physically-Transforming-Bodies-at-Earlier-Ages--444259043.html