Has ignoring red lights gotten a lot worse?

First Up

CramCycle wrote:

But thats the issue here, they have publicised it, if they want to publicise it, they sould have just said they are installing traffic light cameras at a number of junctions around Dublin and they will be operational from the 1st of May or whenever. For about a month, you should see a drop in numbers until people figure out the junctions that have them, by which time the cost of them will have been covered and you can roll them out everywhere. The speed cameras have the same issue. i remember the Garda commissioner going in front of the Oireachtas and saying we clearly don't speed as much as we thought as the speed vans are getting far lower rates of speeding than preliminary investigations indicated. That is BS and we all know it. People know their location, many know the pattern of their shifts at this time and there are tons of FB pages saying when they are there. This is why speeding is getting worse as people are learning where they can get away with it. Average speed cameras would have made more sense and hopefully these cameras can be updated if they are rolled out further to include average speed calculators.

Well its a pilot/trial scheme. One aspect is to see how well the cameras work and another will be to measure changes in behaviour. Both will be useful in planning the wider roll-out.

When the results can be demonstrated - especially how offenders are being caught and punished, I expect the next phase will be to announce much wider installation but not say where they are.

highdef

CramCycle wrote: »

But thats the issue here, they have publicised it, if they want to publicise it, they sould have just said they are installing traffic light cameras at a number of junctions around Dublin and they will be operational from the 1st of May or whenever. For about a month, you should see a drop in numbers until people figure out the junctions that have them, by which time the cost of them will have been covered and you can roll them out everywhere. The speed cameras have the same issue. i remember the Garda commissioner going in front of the Oireachtas and saying we clearly don't speed as much as we thought as the speed vans are getting far lower rates of speeding than preliminary investigations indicated. That is BS and we all know it. People know their location, many know the pattern of their shifts at this time and there are tons of FB pages saying when they are there. This is why speeding is getting worse as people are learning where they can get away with it. Average speed cameras would have made more sense and hopefully these cameras can be updated if they are rolled out further to include average speed calculators.

Yeah, I've never understood why speed cameras need to be so visible and also why the areas they need to operate need to be publicised. The less that is made public, the better the chance of people being caught. The more people that are caught (initially) will quickly lead to lower speeds across the board as people will realise that you can be caught anywhere and at any time.

It's like publicising when banks get their money collected from a cash in transit van and also what sort of security is provided during the transaction....obviously this is not done as there are some non-law abiding citizens who will take advantage of knowing this information and will try to gain benefit from it. In this case, they would benefit with money. Those who speed and break red lights benefit with extra time to themselves.

magicbastarder

highdef wrote: »

Yeah, I've never understood why speed cameras need to be so visible and also why the areas they need to operate need to be publicised. The less that is made public, the better the chance of people being caught. The more people that are caught (initially) will quickly lead to lower speeds across the board as people will realise that you can be caught anywhere and at any time.

the funny thing is that this is not the argument anti-speed van people use, they say it should be about slowing people down in the first place, rather than catching them in the act after they've done it.

it avoids the rather obvious counter-argument that if people know they'll see a speed van before they reach it, they'll also know that if they can't see one, it's OK to speed. having a policy of making the vans deliberately visible *encourages* speeding, rather than discouraging it.

fullstop

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Someone really should do something about those bloody cyclists:

https://streamable.com/k907q

First 3 seconds of the clip...3 cyclists break the red light. LOL.

Stark

fullstop wrote: »

First 3 seconds of the clip...3 cyclists break the red light. LOL.

They set off literally a second too early (you could see the other light had gone red) in slow moving traffic. Yawn.

magicbastarder

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/bbontp/breaking_reds_is_so_normalised_you_can_do_it_in/

TL;DW - care breaking reds during a report on the news yesterday, right in front of gardai.

Tarabuses

I think the two gardai were having a chat not monitoring the traffic.

Ray Bloody Purchase

Tarabuses wrote: »

I think the two gardai were having a chat not monitoring the traffic.

Withdraw that remark! Our boys in blue are never distracted nor deviate from their sworn duty to protect the public.

NUTLEY BOY

Driving through a red light - as it has just turned red - is a standard operating procedure in my part of the Dublin jungle.

What worries me is my tendency to slow down on amber and to be stopped on red - not always possible on short amber. Why I hate it is that some motorists behind you will actually expect you to drive like they do and to gun it through the red. They almost seem angry if you are first to stop on the red.

The frequency of breaking red lights is exceeded only by the regularity of driving blithely through STOP signs. A stop sign and a red light mean the same thing for practical purposes.

blanch152

CramCycle wrote: »

But thats the issue here, they have publicised it, if they want to publicise it, they sould have just said they are installing traffic light cameras at a number of junctions around Dublin and they will be operational from the 1st of May or whenever. For about a month, you should see a drop in numbers until people figure out the junctions that have them, by which time the cost of them will have been covered and you can roll them out everywhere. The speed cameras have the same issue. i remember the Garda commissioner going in front of the Oireachtas and saying we clearly don't speed as much as we thought as the speed vans are getting far lower rates of speeding than preliminary investigations indicated. That is BS and we all know it. People know their location, many know the pattern of their shifts at this time and there are tons of FB pages saying when they are there. This is why speeding is getting worse as people are learning where they can get away with it. Average speed cameras would have made more sense and hopefully these cameras can be updated if they are rolled out further to include average speed calculators.

So ignore the statistics and hard facts that show that drivers are not speeding and revert to rhetoric that drivers are speeding without any evidence?

If you think that people are checking Facebook pages for speed cameras all the time when they are out driving, you have a weird understanding of most people's motivations.

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

So ignore the statistics and hard facts that show that drivers are not speeding and revert to rhetoric that drivers are speeding without any evidence?

The RSA Speed Surveys show that 60-60-82% of motorists break speed limits, depending on which year you look at.

magicbastarder

blanch152 wrote: »

So ignore the statistics and hard facts that show that drivers are not speeding

there are statistics showing this? genuinely curious to see them.

CrankyHaus

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/bbontp/breaking_reds_is_so_normalised_you_can_do_it_in/

TL;DW - care breaking reds during a report on the news yesterday, right in front of gardai.

Yesterday in Tallaght I saw a moped go right through a red light in front of a Garda van that ignored it. The light hadn''t just changed either. It was red the whole time.

CramCycle

blanch152 wrote: »

So ignore the statistics and hard facts that show that drivers are not speeding and revert to rhetoric that drivers are speeding without any evidence?

Not sure where you live but when i drive, I don't go over the speed limit but yet somehow, lets say on the M11, it would be a rare day driving if I wasn't overtaken by 90% of drivers, while I am at the limit. Drive the M50, bar a windy day or rush hour, again, not as high a % but still, a noticeable amount. Just beside Stillorgan on the M11, it is easily noticeable once you pass where the van parks on the left heading southbound, the average speed of all cars suddenly goes up. There are loads of places where you see the break lights go on as cars come close to that part of the road that might have the speed van on it. Interestingly, many seem to get faster once that stretch is clear.

No evidence, type in "speeding irish drivers" into google and the first few hits are all about one day campaigns catching 100s of people a day or studies showing percentages. Imagine, loads caught on days were the Gardai are advertising heavily they are out in force. But you think no one changes their behaviour when there is an increased risk of being caught, I suspect you have little understanding of basic human behaviour.

If you think that people are checking Facebook pages for speed cameras all the time when they are out driving, you have a weird understanding of most people's motivations.

I don't think most people are at that, I am saying that there are FB pages out there that do, and people do use them. Most people know where the speed cameras on their trips are, I can name every place I might see a speed camera on my long trips. I know people who know the days and times speed cameras will typically be around in some areas. I have met people who talk about their school whats app group that people use to let them know if the school has a Garda in the bus lane, so they know whether they can use to skip up the lane in the morning. I would be very surprised if most drivers who use the same routes regularly don't know exactly where a van will be parked. Your just being facetious if your really telling me that you don't think that a large number of drivers adapt their driving in areas where they know speed vans operate. Don't get me wrong, it is better than nothing but it certainly isn't a solution

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/danger-drivers-more-of-us-are-now-speeding-on-lowerlimit-roads-36170303.html

You want to be oblivious to it, fine but personally I just think your misleading others and yourself.

downtheroad

Erne St / Pearse St junction on Thursday, pedestrian crossing went green for all junctions. Normally you'd see a cyclist proceed but this time a motorbike decided to just take off at speed and proceed towards the Liffey. Could have easily run down a couple of pedestrians if they weren't paying attention.

Zipppy

The bottom line is....

Lack of Garda enforcement...i dunno if it's a lack of resources or a couldn't care less attitude..

First Up

Zipppy wrote:

Lack of Garda enforcement...i dunno if it's a lack of resources or a couldn't care less attitude..

Cameras, fines and points. No other way

trellheim

Cameras, fines and points. No other way

there's loads more : seize the car , make people do driving tests again, knock them back to provisionals , make it 7 points a red light run and immediate auto notify to insurance on points award , make it profit-based for the cameras

First Up

trellheim wrote:

there's loads more : seize the car , make people do driving tests again, knock them back to provisionals , make it 7 points a red light run and immediate auto notify to insurance on points award , make it profit-based for the cameras

All fine with me. Mandatory jail time is an option too. But you have to catch them first - hence cameras are the starting point.

fullstop

Stark wrote: »

They set off literally a second too early (you could see the other light had gone red) in slow moving traffic. Yawn.

Still broke the light. It's either acceptable or it's not, slow moving traffic or anything else makes no difference. Yawn.

Breezer

Aungier St and Stephen St junction yesterday, heading onto George's St from Aungier St, a man in a car crossed the first set of pedestrian lights but couldn't go any further because there was a car sitting on the other side of the junction. The lights went red, 4 way green man. He looked around, saw the pedestrians starting to cross, seemed to panic and drove at them. He stopped on the other side of the junction until there was a break in pedestrians crossing, began to drive again, stopped when more crossed, drove again (still through a red light) and eventually made it through the junction to sit in a queue of traffic 20m further down the road.

I suppose at least he did actually stop for the pedestrians and did all this quite slowly, but what on earth was the point?

A couple of foreign women standing beside me were literally gasping at him. Presumably this doesn't happen on a regular basis wherever they were from.

blanch152

Last Friday evening on the South quays, two cyclists cycling in the bus lane, except they were going the wrong way!! One swerved into the middle lane to avoid a bus. Continued on through a red light, though to be fair, they wouldn't have known it was red, travelling the wrong way.

No helmets either. Crazy.

magicbastarder

that's a 'general rank idiocy' issue, not so much an 'ignoring red lights' issue, mind.

McCrack

trellheim wrote: »

there's loads more : seize the car , make people do driving tests again, knock them back to provisionals , make it 7 points a red light run and immediate auto notify to insurance on points award , make it profit-based for the cameras

Penalties have to be proportionate

CramCycle

McCrack wrote: »

Penalties have to be proportionate

It's pretty appropriate.

McCrack

CramCycle wrote: »

It's pretty appropriate.

Those penalties suggested are not proportionate for the offence of failing to stop at a red light

The legislature knows that but I appreciate there is a hang em and flog em brigade out there particularly from the cycling fraternity

trellheim

Those penalties suggested are not proportionate for the offence of failing to stop at a red light

In your opinion. Mine is that those are reasonable and proportionate as motorists seem to have lost sight that yellow means stop for everyone, and harsh lessons are required.

MayoSalmon

trellheim wrote:

In your opinion. Mine is that those are reasonable and proportionate as motorists seem to have lost sight that yellow means stop for everyone, and harsh lessons are required.

Prison sentences give your head a shake

CramCycle

McCrack wrote: »

Those penalties suggested are not proportionate for the offence of failing to stop at a red light

The legislature knows that but I appreciate there is a hang em and flog em brigade out there particularly from the cycling fraternity

Its incredibly appropriate for a variety of reasons, not limited too but including, the scale of damage that can be caused, the number of hoops to jump through and skills that a licensed driver has shown a level of proficiency in, so therefore being sh1t is not an excuse. These are not accidental breaches of H&S, these are wilful abhorrence for other road users. I drive alot, I am not in a fraternity, wen I cycle to work, the people who cycle beside me are as much in my fraternity as the person in the bus, or the person in the car. I have as much in common with them.

The only reason the penalty should be higher for a car, well two actually, are 1) the amount of damage that can be caused to other people and 2) that there has been a level of reinforcement of the rules and regulations that all road users should know anyway. Am I saying cyclists should get away scot free, of course not, I'd be happy for a decent fine or seizure of the bike.

The legislature are not doing it for the reason you think, they are this way due to an inherent human bias, in that if they do it to those people, chances are they will be throwing the book at themselves as well. It's one of the reasons why drivers get such menial sentences for some horrific crimes, because, like it or not, most people feel a sense of, that could have been me in many situations.

I am not that way inclined, just as happy to see the Gardai pop cyclists as motorists, if they are guilty, they deserve it, ignorance, habit or the behaviour of "everyone else" are just excuses, not reasons, the sooner they get over offending the electorate, the better our roads and public transport will become for everyone.

McCrack

Seizing a car or revoking a full license driver to provisional for the offence of failing to stop at a red light are unrealistic, ill-thought out and disproportionate to the offence committed.

Leaving aside the disproportionality how can one distinguish such a penalty towards a driver that for example pleads guilty to one that doesn't (it is a well accepted feature of sentencing law that a guilty plea will attract mitigation over a person who does not offer a plea and forces a trial and is found guilty) or the driver that doesn't own the vehicle he/she was driving or the driver that doesn't hold a full licence at the time of the alleged offence.

There are other considerations too but people need to be realistic but then that requires a certain level of understanding of the legislative and judicial process.