Zappi charge points

unkel

For the record: I'm not advising anyone to install a Zappi in any other way than per the manufacturers spec

I'm not installing a Zappi, I'm installing a battery inverter. From installation instructions I have seen online, people extend the provided (unshielded) cable for both clamps with standard unshielded cat 5 cable. That's what I'm going to do as well

You should really stop accusing me of having unsafe and dangerous DIY electrics. This is false and malicious. First you did it about my inverter that you claimed would back feed the grid if the grid went down. This is not possible as all inverters have anti-islanding protection built in. Which at the time you didn't seem to understand. And now you suggest I might cause a fire by using unshielded cat 5 cable for my inverter clamps as per the manufacturers' instructions? :rolleyes:

KCross

unkel wrote: »

For the record: I'm not advising anyone to install a Zappi in any other way than per the manufacturers spec

I'm not installing a Zappi, I'm installing a battery inverter. From installation instructions I have seen online, people extend the provided (unshielded) cable for both clamps with standard unshielded cat 5 cable. That's what I'm going to do as well

We're talking about the Zappi, not inverters? This is the Zappi thread.

Go right ahead with the Cat5 for your inverter.

The clamp for the Zappi is used for a critical function (load limiting).

Using a clamp for something like an Owl monitor is irrelevant as it doesnt matter if there is interference on that.

unkel wrote: »

You should really stop accusing me of having unsafe and dangerous DIY electrics. This is false and malicious. First you did it about my inverter that you claimed would back feed the grid if the grid went down. This is not possible as all inverters have anti-islanding protection built in. Which at the time you didn't seem to understand. And now you suggest I might cause a fire by using unshielded cat 5 cable for my inverter clamps as per the manufacturers' instructions? :rolleyes:

I understood it fine, thanks.

The context here was the Zappi and your comments made it look like you were condoning using unscreened cable for that. You've clarified that you are not and that you are referring to your inverter only... so that's fine. We are good.

Silent Running

When I installed my Zappi clamp over a year ago the advice from Myenergi was to use any twisted pair cable. I had some 2 pair phone cable and some Cat 5 in the garage. I used the Cat 5. Just the first pair used (white/blue).

It runs alongside the feed cable only for a couple of metres. I've had no issues with this setup. If I was transferring large amounts of important data across the cable I would have used screened cable. The clamp is only a sensor.

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

When I installed my Zappi clamp over a year ago the advice from Myenergi was to use any twisted pair cable. I had some 2 pair phone cable and some Cat 5 in the garage. I used the Cat 5. Just the first pair used (white/blue).

It runs alongside the feed cable only for a couple of metres. I've had no issues with this setup. If I was transferring large amounts of important data across the cable I would have used screened cable. The clamp is only a sensor.

You dont think the data that that sensor is sending is important?

Its not data just for info purposes (i.e. viewing in an app). Its key data to its successful operation to ensure you dont blow a fuse.

The Zappi has to be able to sense load changes "instantly" so its monitoring that data 24/7.

If it works for you, great. It wouldnt be for me. I'd rather follow their advice. The clamp in the box is screened so its not like its an after thought on their part.

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

You dont think the data that that sensor is sending is important?

Its not data just for info purposes (i.e. viewing in an app). Its key data to its successful operation to ensure you dont blow a fuse.

The Zappi has to be able to sense load changes "instantly" so its monitoring that data 24/7.

If it works for you, great. It wouldnt be for me. I'd rather follow their advice. The clamp in the box is screened so its not like its an after thought on their part.

The first sentence of my post.

stimpson

KCross wrote: »

You dont think the data that that sensor is sending is important?

Its not data just for info purposes (i.e. viewing in an app). Its key data to its successful operation to ensure you dont blow a fuse.

The Zappi has to be able to sense load changes "instantly" so its monitoring that data 24/7.

If it works for you, great. It wouldnt be for me. I'd rather follow their advice. The clamp in the box is screened so its not like its an after thought on their part.

I don’t think screened should be absolutely necessary. Twisted pair is designed so interference on each cable in the pair cancels itself out. It is unlikely to cause an issue. In addition, Cat6 is capable of carrying 10Gb/s over 55m. I doubt the cable is pushing anywhere close to 1Mb/s so even if there is severe interference it’s probably not enough to prevent a low bandwidth signal. I would be very surprised if there were any issues from this as long as the twists are maintained all the way along the cable.

In the event that there is an issue, then I’m sure the Zappi is designed to fail safe and not cause a catastrophic failure.

KCross

Silent Running wrote: »

The first sentence of my post.

Fair enough. We got different advice from the same company then!

I posted exactly what they sent me.

KCross

stimpson wrote: »

I don’t think screened should be absolutely necessary.

Absolutely necessary... clearly not since people have it working without it.

stimpson wrote: »

Twisted pair is designed so interference on each cable in the pair cancels itself out. It is unlikely to cause an issue.

In the event that there is an issue, then I’m sure the Zappi is designed to fail safe and not cause a catastrophic failure.

You'd hope so.
But clearly interference is a concern since the cable they provide is screened. They could have scrimped on cable and provided a much cheaper one if screening was irrelevant.

TheChizler

stimpson wrote: »

I don’t think screened should be absolutely necessary. Twisted pair is designed so interference on each cable in the pair cancels itself out. It is unlikely to cause an issue. In addition, Cat6 is capable of carrying 10Gb/s over 55m. I doubt the cable is pushing anywhere close to 1Mb/s so even if there is severe interference it’s probably not enough to prevent a low bandwidth signal. I would be very surprised if there were any issues from this as long as the twists are maintained all the way along the cable.

In the event that there is an issue, then I’m sure the Zappi is designed to fail safe and not cause a catastrophic failure.

It's an analog, not digital signal, the amplitude of which should correspond to the current measured by the clamp.

The current moving through the mains cable induces a voltage across the coil in the clamp, which the Zappi unit measures. Running a length of cable with current flowing in it next to a wire will absolutely induce some voltage and interfere with the intended voltage on the wire. The clamp is just a wire coil next to the cable you're measuring current in, there's no fundamental difference between the clamp and the wire and what they're doing, only the number of turns in the coil (many vs 1).

I've seen over 100 V induced in a disconnected lighting circuit which must have run next to a live circuit, it's not dangerous to people or the equipment or anything as it can't sustain the voltage across a load, but if you're measuring with a high impedance sensor (like the Zappi is) it will mess up your reading.

It being twisted pair should cancel most of the interference out, but not all. I'd use shielded outdoor data cable to be safe.

Best case, there's no effect.
Second best case, the interference is positive and a higher voltage is measured than the real value, and the Zappi limits the charge prematurely.
Worst cast, the interference is negative and a lower than true voltage is measured, the Zappi doesn't limit the charge when the electric shower and hob is on and overloads your supply.

Nedved85

Just an update - My hub arrived last week, set it up over the weekend, bit of a convoluted/ trial and error job to be honest.

They most certainly could improve/simplify the hub setup.

Strange thing is I have to wait for the app to be released to actually see stats etc.

jimmyging

Hi all , I am thinking of getting a zappi charger off my garage which is a bit away from the house but the garage only has this sub fuse board (see attached photo). I have been told that I may need a larger supply to the sub board from my main board which would be a royal pain ( internal wall and external wall and then 15 m stretch . Can any of you tell if this supply is sufficient or will I have to chase a 6 or a 10 square wire out to this board . Apologies if this is a little off thread .

KCross

jimmyging wrote: »

Hi all , I am thinking of getting a zappi charger off my garage which is a bit away from the house but the garage only has this sub fuse board (see attached photo). I have been told that I may need a larger supply to the sub board from my main board which would be a royal pain ( internal wall and external wall and then 15 m stretch . Can any of you tell if this supply is sufficient or will I have to chase a 6 or a 10 square wire out to this board . Apologies if this is a little off thread .

Unusually, your sub board in the pic has a 63A main fuse which is what you'd have in the main board so thats strange. That would suggest the board has enough capacity but your electrician needs to eyeball the cable feeding this board to ensure it matches that 63A fuse. Your Zappi will need 32A.

What electrical devices/points do you have in the garage? Apart from lights and sockets what have you got? Whats that 4th item on the board feeding, the one with the black trip switch? The others just look like lights and sockets.

bonoman66

Nedved85 wrote: »

Just an update - My hub arrived last week, set it up over the weekend, bit of a convoluted/ trial and error job to be honest.

They most certainly could improve/simplify the hub setup.

Strange thing is I have to wait for the app to be released to actually see stats etc.

Yep - Got mine too. I'll probably hold off setting it up until the app is released - hopefully end of this month (if its not pushed out again).

jimmyging

KCross wrote: »

Unusually, your sub board in the pic has a 63A main fuse which is what you'd have in the main board so thats strange. That would suggest the board has enough capacity but your electrician needs to eyeball the cable feeding this board to ensure it matches that 63A fuse. Your Zappi will need 32A.

What electrical devices/points do you have in the garage? Apart from lights and sockets what have you got? Whats that 4th item on the board feeding, the one with the black trip switch? The others just look like lights and sockets.

Just sockets , lights and water pump from well .

slave1

KCross wrote: »

Unusually, your sub board in the pic has a 63A main fuse which is what you'd have in the main board so thats strange. That would suggest the board has enough capacity but your electrician needs to eyeball the cable feeding this board to ensure it matches that 63A fuse. Your Zappi will need 32A.

What electrical devices/points do you have in the garage? Apart from lights and sockets what have you got? Whats that 4th item on the board feeding, the one with the black trip switch? The others just look like lights and sockets.

I'm no electrician but would the electrician have installed a cable "strong" enough to this sub-board to handle the 32a load, I know the board say's 63a but that does not mean it can handle it if say, a 16a cable was used....
Correct me if I'm wrong

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

I'm no electrician but would the electrician have installed a cable "strong" enough to this sub-board to handle the 32a load, I know the board say's 63a but that does not mean it can handle it if say, a 16a cable was used....
Correct me if I'm wrong

Correct, thats more or less what I said.... "... but your electrician needs to eyeball the cable feeding this board to ensure it matches that 63A fuse."

denismc

By putting the Zappi in the garage you may have issues as the the Zappi needs to measure the full load of the house, your CT or Harvi would have to be located at the meter box and the Harvi has limited range.

jimmyging

slave1 wrote: »

I'm no electrician but would the electrician have installed a cable "strong" enough to this sub-board to handle the 32a load, I know the board say's 63a but that does not mean it can handle it if say, a 16a cable was used....
Correct me if I'm wrong

I’d say if it was easier/cheaper to put in lesser cable then that’s probably what was done so it’s just best to have an electrician have a look . Thanks for the input .
The other option is to take feed directly from the esb box but this voids the grant .. rock and hard place ..!

KCross

jimmyging wrote: »

The other option is to take feed directly from the esb box but this voids the grant .. rock and hard place ..!

You can put another sub board off the meter box. Thats allowed. What you are not supposed to do is put anything into the meter box itself.

As long as its done within regulation you should be good with the grant.

iniall

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

I had this problem. I contacted myenergi and they stated that they now include a holster with each Zappi ordered to prevent this. They sent me out a holster free of charge. No issues with water ingress now.

Gunner, I followed your example and got on to myenergi. They were quick to say they were happy to send me a holster FOC. They emailed a sales order and an invoice, but that was almost a month ago and no sign yet. Did yours take ages to arrive?

davidod1

Following some discussion from a little earlier on this thread; I decided to go for a Zappi.

In my case I have a PV solar system surplus with diversion to the hot water system. The run from the box is a little long at about 50 meters and so I am going with wired CT Clamps.

The first thing was to obtain the Zappi unit but has turned out not to be as easy as I thought it would have been. I required a Type 2 connector and a little more than 5 meters and so I needed to go for the 8-meter cable. ElectricAutos were out of stock, and they were not sure when they might be back. I checked online but I was still unable to find the Zappi with Type 2 and 8-meter cable untethered. I really only need about 6 meters.

I contacted MyEnergi and after a couple of emails back and forth I received a very detailed response. They explained that the V1 was no longer available and that a Version 2 was coming in July. They explained that Version 2 was brought about by changes introduced in January 2019 to the regulations. The changes mean that an a separate earth rod and an RCD with DC earth leakage protection to be part of the installation.

Following that regulation change, MyEnergi decided to redesign the charger and incorporate the necessary devices into the unit; they say making the unit cheaper to install, and that the new unit will not require these components.

I am wondering if it really is worth waiting for the Version 2 charger or should I just go with the original one; if I can find one. Then there is also the question as to whether a standard installation here has been including these elements as part of the installation process or it it something that I should insist on my electrician including in my install.

The MyEnergi email was quite informative and if there is interest I could copy some of the details here.

Johnboy1951

They explained that Version 2 was brought about by changes introduced in January 2019 to the regulations. The changes mean that an a separate earth rod and an RCD with DC earth leakage protection to be part of the installation.

That could be very awkward to do for a lot of installations ... finding a suitable physical spot for the earth bar.

The MyEnergi email was quite informative and if there is interest I could copy some of the details here.

That information would be of interest, so yes please.

Did they provide a reference to the regulation they referred to as having been changed? That too would be useful.

KCross

davidod1 wrote: »

I contacted MyEnergi and after a couple of emails back and forth I received a very detailed response. They explained that the V1 was no longer available and that a Version 2 was coming in July. They explained that Version 2 was brought about by changes introduced in January 2019 to the regulations. The changes mean that an a separate earth rod and an RCD with DC earth leakage protection to be part of the installation.

Did they know you were in Ireland?

Are they referring to UK regulations? There are some differences, I believe, in some UK domestic installs in how earthing is done and so new regs were applied in Jan 2019 for those cases. Not sure though if it applies to everyone in the UK or to Ireland.

If its required for Zappi its required for everyone.

davidod1

KCross wrote: »

Did they know you were in Ireland?

No I didn't specify that I was in Ireland. and for Johnboy1951: They didn't specify the Regulation Number.

Copy of some of the content of the email from MyEnergi.

"We have 2 types of zappi available - the current zappi (https://myenergi.uk/product/zappi-product/) and we've recently announced the availability to pre-order the 2019 zappi (https://myenergi.uk/).

The main driving force in developing a new zappi range is because the regulations for installing EV charge points changes from 1st Jan 2019. From this date, all installs require an earth rod being put in and an additional RCD with DC leakage protection. This means the cost of installation for the existing zappi is going to rise significantly, particularly as the current zappi doesn't meet the RCD requirements, so with this in mind we have developed the 2019 zappi which contains a type A RCD with 6 milliamp DC leakage protection and an internal earth fault detection component which means an earth rod isn't required as part of the install. This cuts down the installation time and expense for both the installers and the customer. Therefore, if you choose the existing zappi, the cost of the product is cheaper but with a far more expensive installation cost whereas the 2019 zappi will be more expensive to purchase but have a much cheaper installation price. Hope that makes sense.

I hope this clarifies things a little more. Your dilemma will be whether you need a charger before July 2019 and be willing to pay a high install price OR wait until July 2019 where you can take delivery of a new zappi which will command a much lower install price. In terms of technical performance, both zappis are very similar and are equally compatible with the forthcoming app. The choice of which one is up to you.

Both the new single phase 7kW zappi & the 3-phase 22kW zappi are available to pre-order now. If orders are placed directly through us your dispatch date will be looking towards the latter end of July/ August due to the extreme number of pre-orders placed. We begin to dispatch the first lot of the v2's in June."


Then there was various prices for various items and combinations; including the new hub.

"To summarise, the hub device will allow you remotely control and monitor your myenergi devices without accessing the consoles/units themselves via our forthcoming app (scheduled to be available in the next 6 weeks, free to download on Android and iOS with no monthly subscription). This will allow you to change between charge modes, set your boost timers, adjust your minimum green energy levels and analyse all logged data from previous charges to calculate the amount of green/grid power you've used over a period of time. It also ensures you are permanently connected to the internet so that your myenergi devices can access automatic software updates should any be available. The hub will connect to your home's internet router/modem via Ethernet cable and will detect the signal coming from your myenergi devices, allowing you to access this info and operate your products through the app.

Here's a link to demonstrate how the app will operate - http://kristof-test.zoosh.ie/phone.html. PLEASE NOTE - this was a very early prototype and does contain some errors which you'll no doubt identify. Furthermore, the demo provided is subjected to amendments ahead of release."


They then included a number of photo links, and also these PDFs.

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/1C9zjHVDggs1Dg0XsrviUkSdNM-qWsxKM/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/0B_QRBZTudTJiMVFBSGM5ekxRNzA/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/1vB7KD6JFacha5FffVauIKJqamkdFdBwA/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/12a5zmGbpR_zE8QZb0UvKN4gaUrUF-_EO/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/1Io9wr3Dj69XIQj5eBge0_wqHc_hi35x8/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/1zW6mN1X_UmSniz0FJCLNDl1F82Y0rF45/view?usp=drive_web

https://drive.google.com/a/myenergi.uk/file/d/0B_QRBZTudTJiX1RKSk5icVN0bTQ/view?usp=drive_web

This is quite a good illustrated schematic showing the practical usage of much of the equipment that they have available.

There were also a large number of png and jpg links to photos of various items of their hardware.

davidod1

Taking in to consideration the above I was wondering if anyone would see anything wrong with going for the Version 1 and using the existing earth rod but including an RCD. This would be my preferred choice.

davidod1

Any chance that one of our learned friends might comment on my query above? Posts seem to have dried up on this thread

KCross

Ultimately you need your electrician to sign off on the install so as long as he is on board with your proposal it’ll be fine.

So start with asking your electrician.

_dof_

davidod1 wrote: »

Taking in to consideration the above I was wondering if anyone would see anything wrong with going for the Version 1 and using the existing earth rod but including an RCD. This would be my preferred choice.

No need for a new earth rod for the charger, at least I didn't need one, there's an existing earth rod and that was enough. There's no need for an RCD either, just an MCB. From the Zappi V1 manual:

The zappi device should be connected to a single-phase 230V or 240V nominal AC supply. The supply should be from a dedicated 32A or 40A circuit breaker.
zappi features and integral 30mA Type-A RCD, therefore an RCD protected supply is not required unless local regulations state otherwise.

But your electrician will know best.

jimmyging

KCross wrote: »

Correct, thats more or less what I said.... "... but your electrician needs to eyeball the cable feeding this board to ensure it matches that 63A fuse."

Hi again
I had electrician out yesterday for a look and feed to garage is nowhere near enough for even a 16A car charger so we have to get a feed from the Meter box or the main fuse board .
The main fuse board is tricky to get to and will end up with s very disgruntled OH so.we decided to go with option of taking feed from esb meter box to the sub fuse board in the garage .
This is the bit I don’t understand: the electrician said that doing this will make the garage sub fuse board the main fuse board which will actually suit if he’s right as I have plans to put in a solar pv array in the next few months and it would suit to have the main fuse board in the garage .
Does that make sense ?

Johnboy1951

jimmyging wrote: »

Hi again
I had electrician out yesterday for a look and feed to garage is nowhere near enough for even a 16A car charger so we have to get a feed from the Meter box or the main fuse board .
The main fuse board is tricky to get to and will end up with s very disgruntled OH so.we decided to go with option of taking feed from esb meter box to the sub fuse board in the garage .
This is the bit I don’t understand: the electrician said that doing this will make the garage sub fuse board the main fuse board which will actually suit if he’s right as I have plans to put in a solar pv array in the next few months and it would suit to have the main fuse board in the garage .
Does that make sense ?

Without knowing exactly how he intends to wire the consumer units it is difficult to know what he meant.

I have mine wired thus

Meter - | Fused RCB or such | - Consumer Unit 1
      - | Fused RCB or such | - Consumer Unit 2

Electrician specified the two devices connected to the meter. I don't recall exactly what they were.

I do not have a charger installed, but if I do I will monitor the cable from the meter to the two 'Fuses' to get the overall current draw.