CRT madness!

KeRbDoG

If anyone was after a Sony Trini, prob worth going to a council recycling and talking to whomever is over the electrical bin/tables

Jack burton

I have a 29inch Trini free to a good home.

Has a bit of leak from the bottom of the flyback but still works. So yeah, anyone ever down near Waterford feel free to call in

DeputyStagg

Hey Jack might be interested in that, in Waterford myself. Have a Trinitron 28inch, but it's widescreen and the black bars drive me crazy.

Bit of a noob when it comes to CRT's, but what does a leak from the flyback mean exactly? Is it on the way out or would it be something I'd need to get fixed? Cool to see how generous the community is!

Mucashinto

@o1s1n Thanks Oisin. I took a few videos of it there, basically just reflections of me holding a phone, but I'll add them to the thread later and see if I can get any better ones.

Maybe it is something physical with the tube, it's just there's so many variables atm. The MX range lets you set up the SCART sockets and you're supposed to set it to Decoder but this isn't an option in my menu so I'm stuck on V-Tape. Could be this is causing the colour processing maybe? The image looks like it's constantly moving, see it clearly on text, at the right edge - the hpos needs major adjusting - and whenever something changes during an attract screen. Rock solid static on my Sony.

Otherwise the geometry actually seems good. Just needs shifting to the right as the Trinitron did but that needed a lot more besides. I'm 99% sure I won't be able to get at the service menu through my remote also and no idea whether the pins will be as easily accessible/there on this the way they are on the MX(just behind the back casing).

Back's still killing from getting the thing as well lol. Didn't bring a power drill to get it off its stand so was much more of a hassle to manoeuvre. Complete amateur, made sure to 'lift with my back' though 🙄

o1s1n

I'd say V-Tape stands for Videotape? If that's the case, it might just be accepting composite video and not full on RGB scart given that's what you tended to get out of VHS players.

When you say the picture is moving, is it dot crawl you are seeing?

This kind of a thing, but moving? If so that would confirm that the V-Tape option is composite alright.

o1s1n

Found the manual for it here (LE6000 and the ME6000 actually look to be the same tv)

beovision-le-6000.pdf

o1s1n

From reading the manual, I think what might be happening is you're pressing V.Tape on the remote which is defaulting to composite.

Try doing this instead:

Mucashinto

Ah right, Christ, I really am clueless. I'll spend some proper time tonight and see what I can get - I have a RGB SCART and the composite to SCART for my PAL Wii and I was sure I could see a noticeable quality difference between the two but I'll properly check.

This probably makes it look worse with some shaky camera but that's the general effect - like the image is expanding and contracting constantly.

https://streamable.com/nxmrxc

In a Street Fighter Alpha attract screen it's noticeable when it changes from a Ryu fight to a Chun Li one and then when a Recycling notice comes up it's very jarring - the white background completely resizes and the Tv starts to hum, as soon as the Capcom logo kicks back ithe humming's gone. I think the video should just about show how the 'vs ranking' text is moving. Very noticeable in person but maybe that is dot crawl?

https://streamable.com/sspoz3

Then on the Sony

https://streamable.com/hj59to

(Not sure if that last link worked?? https://streamable.com/hj59to)

I'll spend some proper time over the weekend, unfortunate that it seems nobody really has these models.

o1s1n

Ahhh I get you, no this isn't the dot crawl composite/RGB type issue I was thinking of at all.

There's a thing called CRT 'Bloom' where a CRT image can change sizes based on the brightness of the picture being displayed. So you see it much more pronounced on white images (hence really seeing it on that white recycling one)

The severity of it can vary from CRT to CRT. A certain amount of it is normal.

Bit more of a technical description of it, could also be emphasised by a failing component like a bad capacitor (which might be what's happening to your TV)

https://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/tvfaq/tvbloom.htm

Mucashinto

Ah okay, that sounds likely. It was acting a bit funny last night as inputs would get connected and changed tbh. That input setting from the manual never worked for me either, the 'Play' to make the menu disappear just brings up a black rectangle to the side of the text (like the dropped shadow test from 240p suite) and that hum. Only way I can get to the input without the menu staying is by V-Tape on the remote. Yeah, lots of weirdness, will put it on the back burner for now.

Wanted it to either play Tate MiSTer cores, although I think I was confusing it with the MX4000 there!, or to have something to plug this into

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005104643787.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.3.23575e96Xxi9Ky&algo_pvid=5698d68e-79c5-4a86-8fff-01a828e4cf18&algo_exp_id=5698d68e-79c5-4a86-8fff-01a828e4cf18-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031675456355%22%7D&pdp_npi=3%40dis%21EUR%2194.53%2167.12%21%21%21%21%21%4021224e9b16789868554581844d074d%2112000031675456355%21sea%21IE%210&curPageLogUid=vZMtNWnnsRnx

so I could downscale the Wii and eventually the Steam Deck to 240p. Haven't been able to get that to work either yet but I used the upscaler to see if that at least worked and it seemed very impressive to me. That was coming from 480p just to 960 in fairness and I haven't used any others but it did look good imo. There's a couple of different ones on there but if people are looking for a cheap scaler I think they're good buys. Positive reviews all round with the 'deinterlacing' being particularly good/better than the OSSC by most accounts.

80s Synth Pop

The wobble at the corners is endemic with these beovisions. It's probably a bad cap but you get used to it and nobody else will notice it. They are lovely sets.

You have to enable the other scart ports from the setup menu. Just set the port to anything and they will work. E.g use "dvd" then the dvd button on the remote will switch to that port.

It probably won't remember though when you unplug as the battery inside will be dead.

What remote did it come with? The slim silver one or the big one? You can get into the service menu with both. Great service menu options, on par with an arcade cab.

Have fun!

Mucashinto

I have 2 remotes, the one that works with the Tv is a 1000 mk3 (the other one is a 1000 as well).

This seems to have a much more basic menu than the MX range, at least I can’t find any more detailed one. Just this from the Menu button

When I cycle to av1, I don’t have any option to decide a source and I can’t close the menu when there’s something connected on the SCART. With nothing there I can though.

Here’s the back of the Tv, you can see AV2 out of line and AV1 probably doesn’t look the best either?

This software number would be good if it was an MX I think but not sure if it has any bearing on this.

Anyway it’s all academic now ☹️ While I was trying to test some different wii games/emulators - Metroid Prime 3 played well and the buzzing completely stopped during but almost everything else had it buzzing like mad. Sure what harm, this is old technology…

Oh, what’s that faint smell? Burning plastic, that’s what that smell is. No heat, no smoke, but a very unpleasant slight smell coming from out the top vent. That’s the end of that so, it’s not getting plugged in again.

I may have killed it in transit tbh. Certainly treated it dreadfully, was a pita just getting it out the narrow porch door. And then she’d dragged it to the front door anyway. Or maybe it was dying already or just couldn’t handle been jostled after 25 years sitting peacefully, who knows. I was certainly over confident and under prepared though. Shameful stuff, lesson learned.

o1s1n

Pop the back cover off and see if the smell is still there. If it's very feint it might just be as simple as the back cover being clogged with dust.

The picture quality looks quite nice in that photo!

Inviere

There's always @Weeb Labs too if it needs a more in depth repair. I think it's a caliber of tv definitely worth saving if at all viable to do so.

Mucashinto

Yeah I'm not going to throw it out or anything and I'll probably go the route of getting it properly looked at. It looks very nice just sitting there anyway, so happy to let it stay there for a while. If not I'll offer it up here first to anyone who wants to take it on.

The Sony worked out so well for me that I might have got a false impression of the easiness of picking up a CRT. I'm going to read up and try and get at least a basic understanding of the operations of these things before anything else now. Atm I hear 'chassis' and I think car etc. so baby steps.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120368694#Comment_120368694

Funnily enough, when the menu is open the picture switches to composite (you can see the quality change and the image move a good bit to the right) so the picture in RGB is actually a lot better. Discount everything I've said in the last 24hrs, talking out of my arse. CRT madness indeed...

Mucashinto

Was watching TOTP 1987 the other night and this Boy George video came on. I could only find a 480p video but does anyone recognise this CRT by any chance?

https://youtu.be/B9KaQ6aDB5o?t=192

Looks like a PVM from the front and has external speakers attached but when the camera goes around the back the casing looks like a consumer set and it's just a contrast screen on the front giving it the PVM/BVM look??

Haha, what does it matter I suppose! But currently every time I watch old tv/movies I just notice all the lovely sets that appear. So many of them, just out there in their natural habitat like it's the most normal thing in the world 🙁

Also noticeable how in the video being in close proximity to that many CRTs has the people enter a kind of fugue state and begin to dance with gay abandon. Powerful, powerful things.

o1s1n

They look like Sony 'Profeel' monitors, so high end commercial sets that were made for the home but retained that studio PVM type boxy look. They're gorgeous things. Can mount speakers to the sides of them.

Jack burton

I'll open it up this week and take a few pictures and post it here.

Someone here might have an insight how to sort it out. Seems like something that a heat shrink would sort but it's on a closed loop.

I'll update during the week

MontgomeryClift

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375714#Comment_120375714

The Sony Profeel were also "Bully's Star Prize" on a couple of episodes of Bullseye from around 1983/84. They were just referred to as a TV, but you can see it's a Profeel complete with speakers, a stand and some kind of TV tuner box. It's probably on YouTube.

Mucashinto

That's it alright! They look absolutely lovely, and the later ones as well...Jesus, seems like Sony couldn't miss for a while there, does a bad/unattractive Sony CRT even exist from about 1980 on?? I'm guessing a random person off the street could see the allure of some of these sets, like a classic car or something but who knows I suppose. People are animals.

Colonel Panic

Continuing my paranoid checks of old hardware, I fired up an Ikegami I got from @o1s1n today and forgot how damn nice a monitor it is! Shame it’s got a massive case, I’d never sneak it into the house!

o1s1n

That thing has such a gorgeous unique picture alright. Have you ever taken the back of the case off? It's so empty you could almost climb in yourself. 😁

Colonel Panic

Haha yeah, there's nothing in there at all. All of the adjustments are via pots on the inside so I have to take the top case off to calibrate the image.

Jack burton

sold mine a while back....instant regret. I definitely needed at least 8 BVMs in my life

Mucashinto

Rescued this from a skip today 🙂

Why are you taking small filthy CRTs out of the bin you ask? Well, two (main) reasons.

1. It was a wet day and this, lying on the top of everything else, was bone dry so I was confident/hopeful it had just been put there.
2. It might not show it in the pics but everything else except the paint/dust looked pristine. The screen was flawless, the stickers and ports, the text over the buttons, there's no fading/sun damage on the casing etc. It even has a perfect aerial/RF connector! Was uncanny tbh.

Thought I'd take it home (Jesus small CRTs are a pleasure to handle compared to the bigger boys) and see if it worked and/or would be worth putting the time into getting working. What harm.

A bit of a clean was the full extent of what it needed. Eraser sponge on the paint, damp cloth on the dust, all done. Usual caveats with trying to photo CRTs but it far exceeded my hopes tbh.

Honestly it's the best conditioned CRT I have. It seems like it has had very few hours on it, don't know where the hell it came from. You can see the horizontal positioning is off in the pic but that's the MiSTer's analogue output, it does it on every one of my CRTs. Otherwise (apart from maybe a vertical shift down as well which is probably MiSTer as well) the geometry/convergence seems way better than any of the other sets I've tried so far. No funkiness at the corners or stretching in the middle etc.

The picture's lovely on it. Bright and colourful and while it's not super sharp it's not soft at all. I mainly noticed how good the composite looked tbh, so used to that being a massive downgrade on switching but just need to crank the brightness etc up and I was pretty blown away tbh.

Bought the original remote for it there on eBay and hopefully when that arrives I can access the service menu and shift the image and that should be it. Seems like it's got a good long life left in it touch wood. I'd literally just bought a 14 inch on Sunday! I was hoping it would be like this condition tbh but that's going to need to be opened and have some pot adjustments that may go...not so well. I feel much better working on a small, less powerful CRT though so that's gonna function for a bit of (hopefully non-hazardous) learning.

Outside of professional/broadcast monitors I wonder could you have as good a CRT collection as most by only taking free ones. Would be nice as well to counter the moronic idea people are getting now that their old Tv is actually 'vintage' and so is valuable. Ah yes, 'vintage' degrading technology with a limited lifespan, shut up and take my money 🙄

Mucashinto

Just wondering about some stuff after opening, and failing with, a CRT for the first time (that also somehow ended with the MiSTer not accepting USB input anymore regardless of SD card/firmware. Got a new PSU on the way and really, really hoping that will fix that).

• Remark: A service remocon(R-30SVC) is needed to align the set. Anyone any experience with something like this? Is it common enough that some (smaller?) sets can only be adjusted digitally and can you get some kind of universal version of one of these that can do multiple brands?
• How much noise do you find acceptable coming from a CRT? Are some noises more worrying than others? Neo Geo through this thing...TZZZ TZZZ TZZZ with the picture pulsing (kind of hypnotically tbh). TZZZ TZZZ Boom?
• Is there any (simple enough) tests you always do, maybe a multi-meter on a particular part or something, to get a general sense of some important condition or something? I hear the Voltage Regulator being mentioned a lot, is there anything a complete novice/ignoramus could or should do to check these kinds of things?
• Is this bad?

• What about this? 'ol red head

• Just say someone was messing with the SCREEN (G2 I guess) pot and went all the way up until there was a kind of 'pop' sound and the image disappeared. Turning it back down bought the image back but would you say to this person, "that was a bad thing to do"?
• Generally, do you think if you're going to have CRTs you should have some level of competence/knowledge/experience etc. with them?

o1s1n

It's good to know the ins and outs of all the controls, from the pots to the convergence rings, how it all fits together and everything in-between as you can adjust and fix a lot of that yourself - that's where I am myself tbh and I've been using CRTs for years. Handy also to know how to discharge one to remove a chassis to be sent off for repair.

But if you need to do anything beyond that you do really need to have further knowledge re troubleshooting electronic components. A lot of the time, they're going to need capacitors replaced, which will at the very least require good soldering skills.

There's a guy on adverts called harutan who was posting here and is open to servicing CRTs. Might be worth getting in contact with him.

Edit - actually he's Weeb Labs now, here's a link to his profile:

https://www.boards.ie/profile/discussions/Weeb%20Labs

On the subject of your MiSTer and the USB port, I've been there and it's not good news. If the port is physically broken then the whole DE10 board is absolutely useless from a gaming point of view until you have it repaired with some very delicate soldering work.

And when I say delicate I mean really really delicate.

Mucashinto

Thanks, yeah just one of those weekends. Got a table in Ikea also to put them on so at least that could be one thing accomplished.

Ah right, it's going to be like that is it.

The MiSTer is surely a PSU issue, at worst a new USB Hub. Surely...I left it on when I went to have dinner/do some things for some stupid reason and when I went I went back no input. Plugged it out for 20 mins and it worked again but no joy since then. Not sure the place I bought the replacement PSU actually has it in stock either despite advertising it as 2 day delivery.

With the CRTs first thing I want to do is limit how much damage I'm doing to the poor things at least. Fine for me to be marvelling at RGB images but if that's only because I'm blasting a signal at a voltage level they were no way designed to handle I'm going to try and stop that sharpish. I do wonder how much noise the Tv makes is normal and how much is it trying to say 'stop, please, you're killing me'.

Don't think you can spend your way out of a lot of these problems either? Really the 3 things in a CRT that would solve someone at my level's issues - Age/Condition/Hours - it's kind of in the lap of the gods? Then I just need to focus on treating it right and not being a mindless savage.

Anyway, worst comes to worst I pick up any and every free/old/junk CRT going and just spray and pray. I'm not going back to sample and hold fixed resolution displays. I won't go back.

(I do know the washers are the wrong way round on the screw at least. Honestly! That was just to take a quick pic if Ikea wanted to see)

o1s1n

Ah right, as your DE10 USB port was working, not working, then working again? Hopefully you can get it going with a bit of hardware tweaking alright.

Do be super super careful with that micro USB port though. I accidentally broke my one a while back, had it fixed, it broke again, had multiple people look at it, eventually it was fixed at great effort. So am a bit salty when it comes to USB ports on that board. It working/not working is the difference between having a working MiSTer and a dead one. DE10 replacements are not cheap!

You can spend your way out of the broken CRT problem, but it depends on the CRT as to whether it's worth it or not.

It kind of goes like the following:

Arcade CRT - more than likely fixable. If you can't do it yourself, you remove the chassis and send it to Grandspain in the UK who will service it for you. Highly likely it will work again and the picture will be lovely and crisp. Totally worth it and fairly minimal effort. The monitor will then potentially work for many many years to come.

Fancy Pro monitor (PVMs/BVMs etc) - worth fixing but can be fairly complex inside. There was no real way of having these serviced (Grantspain wont touch them) until Weeb Labs recently announced he was willing to take on work. Great thing is he's based in Ireland so no posting anything abroad.

Consumer Sets - if the problem isn't something you can fix yourself and you don't have some sort of sentimental attachment to the TV, then it might just be best moving on to another TV. If it's a particularly nice consumer set like a B&O it might be worth contacting Weeb Labs and you could have it refreshed and working for years to come... but with the price of second hand Sony Trinitrons (often free!) you might just be better off getting another one.

o1s1n

The noise thing is difficult to know really, there are so many different noises a CRT can make. Can be hard to figure out where it's coming from using your ear alone. From what I've seen myself, if it's a constant buzz you're probably okay, if it's intermittent or sounds weird, there could be issues ahead..

The yoke itself can buzz for example. After years of use the spacers that hold them in place can get a bit loose, causing the yoke to resonate. You can fix this by fixing the bracing against the tube. Have heard about people using wooden sticks hot glued in place, new spacers etc.

I read an interesting thread recently where someone had a buzz coming from the yoke in a Blast City, but it was actually from pieces of debris that had broken off and fallen into the yoke itself.

To remove the debris they actually had to take the yoke off the tube though, so fairly advanced stuff I wouldn't even begin to attempt!

The flyback itself can buzz too. I've had a buzzing noise in one of my machines ever since I bought and I reckon its the flyback as I've tried bracing the yoke with no effect - it's been going on for over ten years and the monitor still works absolutely perfectly. I do have a new old stock flyback for it though for when it does crap out.

The buzzing in that cabinet changes frequency when changing resolutions, it also gets a little bit more intense if an interlaced picture is sent over. I just consider these 'operational' buzzing noises from the flyback as it doesn't impact the picture and runs for hours and hours without issue. You also can't hear it over the game sounds.

From what I've seen, it's if the picture itself is being impacted along with a noise that you want to watch out for. So if you turn on a CRT and you are hearing a strange sound, along with the image jumping around or collapsing then your components are going kaput.

Simple constant low level buzzing seems to be okay and something you'll more than likely see in a lot of old CRTs (although it might be indicative of something needing attention in the long run).

Edit - link to that thread re the yoke removal / fix for a Blast City for anyone that's interested

https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/nanao-ms-2931-buzz-fixed.10712/page-3