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Pittsburgh synagogue shooting

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    #92
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Celticfire wrote: »
    Well then I guess there's no point in whining that he doesn't condemn Nazis for when it's been show that yes he has actually publicly condemned them the usual out of context "decent people on both sides " soundbite is thrown out.

    Trump told aides that condemning neo-Nazis was the biggest mistake he made.

    https://www.google.gr/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/trump-regrets-charlottesville-both-sides-speech-bob-woodward-says-2018-9


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    #93
    Celticfire
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Trump reportedly told aides that condemning neo-Nazis was the biggest mistake he made.

    https://www.google.gr/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/trump-regrets-charlottesville-both-sides-speech-bob-woodward-says-2018-9

    Fixed that for ya.


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    #94
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

    Also we should all be wary of the use of words like globalists and even bankers. Often dog whistles. Then there’s anti Zionism.

    Antisemitism is universal on the far right and unreconstructed left.


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    #95
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.


    Such nonsense.


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    #96
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

    Also we should all be wary of the use of words like globalists and even bankers. Often dog whistles. Then there’s anti Zionism.

    Antisemitism is universal on the far right and unreconstructed left.

    Corbyn took a stance on the behaviour of the Israeli defence forces actions against the Palestinians, and the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel does not recognise the rights of anybody but Jewish people inside Israel, black Jews are discriminated against as well.

    You don't have to be Jewish to be a globalist, a banker or even a Zionist.

    What "we" (people with the freedom to form our own opinions away from the received "wisdom" spouted by the likes of yourself) really need to be careful of is being brow beaten into a corner where any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish commuting crimes or atrocities cannot be criticised.

    I have no ill will towards people of any faith, colour ethnicity but Zionism (of which a massive constituent part has become the persecution of the Palestinian people) is not a force of good in this world and the practice of equating criticism of Zionism with anti semitism is dangerous and irresponsible.


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    #97
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

    Also we should all be wary of the use of words like globalists and even bankers. Often dog whistles. Then there’s anti Zionism.

    Antisemitism is universal on the far right and unreconstructed left.

    Corbyn took a stance on the behaviour of the Israeli defence forces actions against the Palestinians, and the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel does not recognise the rights of anybody but Jewish people inside Israel, black Jews are discriminated against as well.

    You don't have to be Jewish to be a globalist, a banker or even a Zionist.

    What "we" (people with the freedom to form our own opinions away from the received "wisdom" spouted by the likes of yourself) really need to be careful of is being brow beaten into a corner where any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish commuting crimes or atrocities cannot be criticised.

    I have no ill will towards people of any faith, colour ethnicity but Zionism (of which a massive constituent part has become the persecution of the Palestinian people) is not a force of good in this world and the practice of equating criticism of Zionism with anti semitism is dangerous and irresponsible and if I'm being honest I think you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating that myth.


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    #98
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.
    Not to say that there can't be anti-Semitism on the political left, but let's also not confuse condemnation of Israel's ongoing policy of annexation of Palestinian land
    with actual anti-semitism.

    It's not anti-black, for example, to have opposed Robert Mugabe's former regime in Zimbabwe.


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    #99
    Anthracite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭Anthracite


    nullzero wrote: »
    the practice of equating criticism of Zionism with anti semitism is dangerous and irresponsible and if I'm being honest I think you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating that myth.
    Was there some alliance of sorts between the actual Nazi regime (the ultimate anti-semites?) and German Zionists, or is that not historically accurate?

    And are there not many anti-Zionist Jewish people?

    (just to further underline the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism)


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    #100
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    nullzero wrote: »
    Corbyn took a stance on the behaviour of the Israeli defence forces actions against the Palestinians, and the fact that Israel is an apartheid state. Israel does not recognise the rights of anybody but Jewish people inside Israel, black Jews are discriminated against as well.

    You don't have to be Jewish to be a globalist, a banker or even a Zionist.

    What "we" (people with the freedom to form our own opinions away from the received "wisdom" spouted by the likes of yourself) really need to be careful of is being brow beaten into a corner where any criticism of people who happen to be Jewish commuting crimes or atrocities cannot be criticised.

    I have no ill will towards people of any faith, colour ethnicity but Zionism (of which a massive constituent part has become the persecution of the Palestinian people) is not a force of good in this world and the practice of equating criticism of Zionism with anti semitism is dangerous and irresponsible.

    Cool, you gonna actively ignore how such terms have been long used for an anti semetic agenda? Trump's targeting of the likes of George Soros in his conspiracies is very much so anti semetic. Particularly since Soros has been subject to such conspiracies for years..


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    #101
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    Cool, you gonna actively ignore how such terms have been long used for an anti semetic agenda? Trump's targeting of the likes of George Soros in his conspiracies is very much so anti semetic. Particularly since Soros has been subject to such conspiracies for years..

    Are you going to actively ignore the fact that Trump moved the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem?
    Are you going to actively ignore his daughter converting to Judaism when she married her hawskishly Zionist husband?

    The cheek of you using that type of language when you obviously don't have the first notion of what you're talking about.


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    #102
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

    Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

    Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.


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    #103
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    nullzero wrote: »
    Are you going to actively ignore the fact that Trump moved the American embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem?
    Are you going to actively ignore his daughter converting to Judaism when she married her hawskishly Zionist husband?

    The cheek of you using that type of language when you obviously don't have the first notion of what you're talking about.

    You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


    https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901
    Jacoby Teeny Sinkhole wrote: »
    Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

    Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

    Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.

    You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.


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    #104
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    Jacoby Teeny Sinkhole wrote: »
    Trump is obviously not anti Semitic but if someone is determined to believe he is, absolutely nothing will change their position. Not just opinions but facts that contradict their view.

    Criticism of Soros - how the heck does that mean anti Semitism? Going by that logic, criticism of Pence = anti Christian.

    Also there are plenty on the right who are very much opposed to anti Semitism - and on the left who are anti Semitic.

    We're in a post fact era now I'm afraid.
    Following populist rhetoric is the trendy thing to do these days.
    I think Trump is a cretin but the notion that he's actively anti semitic is just extrapolated from the perception of him and his followers as being intolerant of everybody outside of their perceived social group.
    Its just lazy an completely inaccurate.


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    #105
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Don’t forget the anti Semitic tendencies in the modern left, particularly in corbyn’s Labour.

    Agree but Corbyn gets a very easy ride here in Ireland because of his pro-republican tendencies. People roll out Israel as an excuse for his language but there is an issue there.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It's Trump's attitudes towards gun culture which are to blame, not his attitudes towards Jews.

    His attitude towards guns are nothing new in American culture. The US has had a gun culture issue for god knows how long now. To lay the blame at his door, for that, is foolish. Obama had a majority for a few years, plenty of time to do something about gun control if he really wanted but he chose not to. He latched onto it in later years in the hope of saving his political bacon.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I work in the states quite a bit. It's not as simple as loving Israel. I've heard Israeli supporting colleagues complain about percieved Jewish nepotism. It's a very confused nation.

    Oh, I know that and I was just making the link between the two. I used to live in Texas and I fully appreciate the contradictions that exist between the two. Didn't want to go into it in more detail because you'd need a week to outline it all. One part of the relationship is the strong ties that devout Christians, the Evangelical Christian movement, from my experience, that's the point I was making. They travel en masse to Israel and woe betide you if you dare question Israel and it's actions. Everything that happens in Israel, from an Israeli perspective, is God's will, as I was told once. I used to work with a few Jewish people and the community is very, ahem, tight knit alright.


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    #106
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    nullzero wrote: »
    We're in a post fact era now I'm afraid.
    Following populist rhetoric is the trendy thing to do these days.
    I think Trump is a cretin but the notion that he's actively anti semitic is just extrapolated from the perception of him and his followers as being intolerant of everybody outside of their perceived social group.
    Its just lazy an completely inaccurate.
    Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.


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    #107
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


    https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901


    You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.

    Trump IS the most openly Zionist president in living memory.
    You obviously cannot comprehend the simple information provided to you.
    Some magazine says Trump is anti semitic, then it must be true, never mind his Jewish daughter and son in law and his two fingers to Palestinians. Judge him by one publications opinion. Never mid the facts let's just jump on the bandwagon, describing facts as "glossing over" describes just how feeble your argument is.

    I don't know what your obsession with conspiracies is but there's a forum for that stuff if you want to talk about it.


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    #108
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    batgoat wrote: »
    Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

    No, there were people to blame on both sides of Charlottesville, that's the point he was making.


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    #109
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are two types of people in this thread.

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."

    "When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. Their rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."


    It happens with an awful lot of things that Trump says. If it could make him look decent, it's him just babbling. If it could make him look bad, it is gospel.


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    #110
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

    I'm not discussing that issue.
    I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).


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    #111
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Berserker wrote: »
    No, there were people to blame on both sides of Charlottesville, that's the point he was making.

    He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered... You can rewrite his comments into a nuanced remark but it requires a complete rewrite of the event itself. That is completely dishonest.

    quote="nullzero;108475425"]I'm not discussing that issue.
    I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).[/quote]

    Eh, that event is very much so relevant and was a pretty shameful moment in US history. It also involves the fact that those groups support him.


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    #112
    Celticfire
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭Celticfire


    batgoat wrote: »
    You gonna say the same to Haaretz (an Israeli publication) that entirely agree that Trump has engaged in anti semetic rhetoric? You gonna ignore how he said there was decent people among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville? So yeah, say "the cheek of you" as much as you want but it seems more like you're glossing over the dodgy behaviour and using the embassy as the be all and end all.


    https://www.haaretz.com/amp/us-news/.premium-u-s-jews-despair-is-compounded-by-trump-s-complicity-and-netanyahu-s-hypocrisy-1.6595901


    You are aware that they're not criticisms, they're conspiracies which includes the caravan conspiracy.. Not based on actual facts.... These sorts of conspiracies have resulted in the bomb that was sent to him earlier in the week.

    I got as far as the link under the website name...… "Relax, Trump wont put all the Jews in camps, only the Democrats"


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    #113
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    Can you clarify, do you think there were decent people among the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists in Charlottesville? Cause Trump did. There weren't... It would appear that you are the person avoiding facts.

    To turn the tables on you a little, do you believe Palestinians are entitled to be treated with respect and have their human rights observed?


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    #114
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    A great article detailing the fact that Trump doesn't have a clue what anti-semitism is. Condeming it in name but giving it strenght in his actions e.g describing Nazis as "very fine people".



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/trump-doesnt-understand-how-anti-semitism-works-neither-do-most-americans/


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    #115
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Celticfire wrote: »
    I got as far as the link under the website name...… "Relax, Trump wont put all the Jews in camps, only the Democrats"

    The opinion piece about putting Mexican children in camps and separating them from their parents? Shocking that an Israeli publication happens to see parallels...


    Anyway, it's clear that some posters think that were "fine people" among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville... David Duke concurs with ye. Also a big Trump supporter btw.... Strange that!
    nullzero wrote: »
    To turn the tables on you a little, do you believe Palestinians are entitled to be treated with respect and have their human rights observed?

    Yes very much so, in fact I'm very much so opposed to Israel's actions in Palestine. There were never fine people among the Neo Nazis or white supremacists in Charlottesville... This is the reality. It was a modern day klan rally.


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    #116
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    The opinion piece about putting Mexican children in camps and separating them from their parents? Shocking that an Israeli publication happens to see parallels...


    Anyway, it's clear that some posters think that were "fine people" among the Neo Nazis and white supremacists in Charlottesville... David Duke concurs with ye. Also a big Trump supporter btw.... Strange that!



    Yes very much so, in fact I'm very much so opposed to Israel's actions in Palestine. There were never fine people among the Neo Nazis or white supremacists in Charlottesville... This is the reality. It was a modern day klan rally.

    As I said earlier I do jot support Trump or racist groups of any kind.


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    #117
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Excellent article written by a Jewish writer for the WP. It details the anti-semetic abuse Trump supporters directed at him. Abuse which Trump refused to condemn. It details the anti-semetic imagary Trump aimed at the Democrats during the presidential election.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/how-much-responsibility-does-trump-bear-synagogue-shooting-pittsburgh/


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    #118
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    batgoat wrote: »
    He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered... You can rewrite his comments into a nuanced remark but it requires a complete rewrite of the event itself. That is completely dishonest.

    quote="nullzero;108475425"]I'm not discussing that issue.
    I'm not a Trump supporter, and white supremacist groups and neo nazis sicken me, as do any people who see themselves as superior to anybody. Racism, xenophobia, anti semitism etc are all wrong all the time, even when it's time to look at how Israel treats Palestinians(and yes I don't agree with Palestinian terrorism either before you start).

    Eh, that event is very much so relevant and was a pretty shameful moment in US history. It also involves the fact that those groups support him.[/quote]

    That event is not relevant to anything I had been discussing up to the point where you raised it.
    Trump is demonstrably a Zionist, and he's also smart enough to know what his demographic is (his appearances on Alex Jones' show demonstrate this, a platform which purportedly never critisizes Israel either incidentally) and how to pander to them. He's playing both sides at once.


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    #119
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    batgoat wrote: »
    He specified decent people on both sides too.. And no, there was only one side to blame for the events that transpired which culminated in an actual decent person being murdered...

    Firstly, there's only one side to blame, in your mind. Anyone, who is in impartial can see that both sides were at fault. Secondly, is it not possible that there are decent people of a right minded tendency or are you going to paint them all with the same brush? Is everyone who leans to the right on any issue or anyone who dares question the left, a KKK loving ......


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    #120
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Excellent article written by a Jewish writer for the WP. It details the anti-semetic abuse Trump supporters directed at him. Abude which Trump refused to condemn. It details the anti-semetic imagary Trump aimed at the Democrats during the presidential election.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/10/28/how-much-responsibility-does-trump-bear-synagogue-shooting-pittsburgh/

    Did Trump himself direct this abuse at him?
    Because we already know that racist idiots support Trump, and we also know that Trump is an avowed Zionist.


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    #121
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    nullzero wrote: »

    That event is not relevant to anything I had been discussing up to the point where you raised it.
    Trump is demonstrably a Zionist, and he's also smart enough to know what his demographic is (his appearances on Alex Jones' show demonstrate this, a platform which purportedly never critisizes Israel either incidentally) and how to pander to them. He's playing both sides at once.

    Glossing over the event and his "globalist" catcalls... They're both relevant and to say they're not is pretty dishonest.


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