Poppy

zapitastas

Zebra3 wrote: »

If somebody’s relatives joined a foreign army, that’s their business.

Don’t expect the rest of us to give a toss about their killing for foreign imperialists.

Is a little more complex given that Redmond was pushing Irish volunteers to join the war on the side of the British as a means to obtain home rule. I would have sympathy with those men who were misled. For others who did it as mercenaries that is another story

sbsquarepants

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There are many different ways he could have chosen to make money. But he chose to go to war, knowing he might not come back and that he would be at the behest of his country ‘s old enemy.

To me that’s bravery.

You yourself said he done it to make ends meet, not out of any sense of duty?

To me that's killing strangers for money.

He may well have been brave, but he also was willing to kill people for money.

RustyNut

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

sbsquarepants wrote: »

See this is what I just don't get about this sentimentalisation of war.

When it comes right down to it - your great grandfather needed money. To get it, he agreed to kill strangers purely because they were enemies of the people occupying his own country at the time and those people were willing to pay him to do so.

Heroic. As. Fúck

There are many different ways he could have chosen to make money. But he chose to go to war, knowing he might not come back and that he would be at the behest of his country ‘s old enemy.

To me that’s bravery.

A bit like some young lad today from inner city Dublin who could probably get a minimum wage job in McDonald's but instead takes bigger money from the kinihans to kill whoever he is told to kill. To make ends meet like.

Ragnar Lothbrok

engiweirdo wrote: »

Well I guess put the shoe on the other foot. Would it not concern you gravely if for example during water charge protests or similar large scale demonstrations the Irish Defence forces saw fit to fire live rounds into the crowd as means of control. Now you could say if that crime happened in day Lebanon it would be equally abhorrent yet as Irish citizens we charge our military with the defence of its people, this is not exactly the case with foreign operations. Similar rules would apply. The British Army should absolutely be held to a higher standard on their actions within their national territory as compared to say Afghanistan.

No, sorry but I still disagree with you.

What you are saying is that an army should behave to a civilised standard at home, but can have carte blanche to perform atrocities abroad, or at the very least to break any international rules regarding conduct against civilians or prisoners so long as it's not on "home territory".

Actually, if you look at the various civil wars throughout history, there is a higher chance of the state army behaving in an atrocious manner when fighting an internal enemy (Spanish civil war and the break up of Yugoslavia come to mind).

Zebra3

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There are many different ways he could have chosen to make money. But he chose to go to war, knowing he might not come back and that he would be at the behest of his country ‘s old enemy.

To me that’s bravery.

What do you think of all those who he killed?

sbsquarepants

RustyNut wrote: »

A bit like some young lad today from inner city Dublin who could probably get a minimum wage job in McDonald's but instead takes bigger money from the kinihans to kill whoever he is told to kill. To make ends meet like.

It's all down to scale.

Kill 5 people for money - you're a psycho.

Firebomb a city and kill 20,000 for money - you're a war hero!

AudreyHepburn

Zebra3 wrote: »

What do you think of all those who he killed?

I think they should be remembered too.

At the end of the day they were all just innocent young men doing their duty regardless of which side they were on.

RustyNut

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Zebra3 wrote: »

What do you think of all those who he killed?

I think they should be remembered too.

At the end of the day they were all just innocent young men doing their duty regardless of which side they were on.

It was never any Irish man's "duty" to impose British imperial will around the world. An Irish man's "duty" is to resist British imperialism in his own country.

indioblack

Some years ago on AH I had a debate with a poster about this Poppy issue. I suggested that the only logical solution was no commemoration. The poster came back to me with the suggestion that there should only be a remembrance of WW2. I replied that since the empire, [the British empire], was still in being during this period, any effort on behalf of Britain's involvement in the war could be argued to be aiding the maintenance of imperial Britain.
So, no commemoration. A remembrance for "the fallen"? No. Because you'd have to be certain of what they had fallen for. Did they fall because of evil politicians or stupid generals? Doesn't matter. If they were part of a group, nation or race within which some members of the aforementioned units behaved immorally, illegally or to maintain a system that was immoral then any remembrance, public recognition or commemoration of their involvement, [no matter how unwittingly or unwillingly], can be open to criticism.
This doesn't just apply to Remembrance Day and the Poppy Appeal. Any public recognition by any state, organisation or group of people of any activity by any kind of groupings of people within which there are grounds for criticism of the behaviour of some or all within said groupings cannot logically go unchallenged.

Ragnar Lothbrok

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Thank you.

The idea that people would to forget or worse make traitors out of the thousands of brave Irish men who went to war makes me sick tbh.

I think my Great Grandfather was very brave to fight for the people he would have considered enemies and to have risked his life to make sure he could make ends meet.

I actually agree with you on this. At the time of the First World War, like it or not, Ireland was still a part of the British Empire, and many young men would have seen nothing wrong with joining the British army as they would have seen it as their army too.

I would certainly not class him, or any other young man who joined up, as a traitor to Ireland (at that time). It was a totally different time, with the majority of the people in the country accepting British rule (although that was, of course, soon to change).

Indeed, many of these young men returned to Ireland after the war and then played an active role in the Republican forces and used the skills learned in the British army to help in Ireland's fight for freedom (Tom Barry being perhaps the best example of this).

I don't think that any young man who joined the British army then should be portrayed as mercenaries or paid killers in the way that someone in an earlier post suggested that it was similar to someone in carrying out a murder for one of the crime gangs of today.

They might not have realised or understood the full horror of the trenches, but they did volunteer to go to war for a cause that was portrayed at the time very much as a defence of small nations (an absolute lie, of course). They must have realised that there was a very strong chance that they would be injured or killed, and therefore their act was indeed very brave.

I would have no problem whatsoever with anyone wearing a distinctly Irish symbol to commemorate any of their ancestors who fought in World War I or II.

However, as I've said many times, I am a Republican and I cannot for the life of me condone the wearing of a poppy, as this does nothing except raise money for the modern day former British soldiers.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I would have no problem whatsoever with anyone wearing a distinctly Irish symbol to commemorate any of their ancestors who fought in World War I or II.

However, as I've said many times, I am a Republican and I cannot for the life of me condone the wearing of a poppy, as this does nothing except raise money for the modern day former British soldiers.

so as a Republican, I presume you wear the Easter Lilly

Ragnar Lothbrok

Aegir wrote: »

so as a Republican, I presume you wear the Easter Lilly

Of course I do

And for many years I sold them too, despite the best efforts of the Special Branch and Gardaí to prevent this.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Of course I do

And for many years I sold them too, despite the best efforts of the Special Branch and Gardaí to prevent this.

so you sell something that commemorates those that carried out the murder of innocents and contributes to the upkeep of memorials of nazi collaborators.

It is a two way street. I don't see how someone can condemn one and not the other. For both symbols, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Zebra3

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think they should be remembered too.

At the end of the day they were all just innocent young men doing their duty regardless of which side they were on.

But they weren’t innocent young men.

Your hero went and picked up a gun to kill people to make money for himself.

There’s no innocence in that.

Edgware

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Of course I do

And for many years I sold them too, despite the best efforts of the Special Branch and Gardaí to prevent this.

Oh I'd say they really went out to frustrate the scrotes going around the pubs with their tin box collecting a few bob from the bar stool republicans

Zebra3

Edgware wrote: »

Oh I'd say they really went out to frustrate the scrotes going around the pubs with their tin box collecting a few bob from the bar stool republicans

While taking a break from chauffeuring Haughey around the place and battering working class people on Moore Street.

Bless them.

zapitastas

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I actually agree with you on this. At the time of the First World War, like it or not, Ireland was still a part of the British Empire, and many young men would have seen nothing wrong with joining the British army as they would have seen it as their army too.

I would certainly not class him, or any other young man who joined up, as a traitor to Ireland (at that time). It was a totally different time, with the majority of the people in the country accepting British rule (although that was, of course, soon to change).

Indeed, many of these young men returned to Ireland after the war and then played an active role in the Republican forces and used the skills learned in the British army to help in Ireland's fight for freedom (Tom Barry being perhaps the best example of this).

I don't think that any young man who joined the British army then should be portrayed as mercenaries or paid killers in the way that someone in an earlier post suggested that it was similar to someone in carrying out a murder for one of the crime gangs of today.

They might not have realised or understood the full horror of the trenches, but they did volunteer to go to war for a cause that was portrayed at the time very much as a defence of small nations (an absolute lie, of course). They must have realised that there was a very strong chance that they would be injured or killed, and therefore their act was indeed very brave.

I would have no problem whatsoever with anyone wearing a distinctly Irish symbol to commemorate any of their ancestors who fought in World War I or II.

However, as I've said many times, I am a Republican and I cannot for the life of me condone the wearing of a poppy, as this does nothing except raise money for the modern day former British soldiers.

I think you are misreading the attitude of the time. The British army was never considered 'their' army. Notice the absense of conscription

arybvtcw0eolkf

Aegir wrote: »

Fascinating character.

You know what I mean though, it’s not like the RIR are going to turn up for work tomorrow and be told right lads, grab your guns we’re off to Cavan.

Hostilities take weeks/months to build up before any actual fighting takes place.

I did know what you were talking about but I thought I'd give an example of where it actually happened.

The British military is liable to cross Irish borders these days in an effort to help us in a search and rescue role.. And our Air Corps does the same up north, recently we provided a water bucket carrying heli to help the northern authorities fight gorse fires during our hot dry summer.

These poppy threads always lift the rocks under which post ceasefire republicans shelter, I just don't bother getting into discussion with them.

Personally I think the Poppy Appeal is a great charity in so far as it helps the general public to remember the men and women who'd served in the British armed forces, and the donations help those soldiers and their families during difficult times.

Outside of that I leave the hysterics to the republican knuckle draggers who only emerge during discussions like this, the Easter Lilly and the Israeli/Palestine monkeys tea party.

Ragnar Lothbrok

zapitastas wrote: »

I think you are misreading the attitude of the time. The British army was never considered 'their' army. Notice the absense of conscription

I said "many" not "all". Of course there were many others who, correctly, would not have considered the British army as "theirs".

Ragnar Lothbrok

Edgware wrote: »

Oh I'd say they really went out to frustrate the scrotes going around the pubs with their tin box collecting a few bob from the bar stool republicans

So, I'm a scrote am I? That's a highly impressive way of you to join a debate.

The Special Branch were extremely petty when it came to harassment of Republicans - they needed to ensure they got their massive overtime cheques too. Regular stop and search on the street of Republicans continued until way into the Peace Process and after the GFA too.

Not to mention the rather more serious activities of the Heavy Gang and their like that were common enough too.

bobbysands81

Allyson Obnoxious Tailgate wrote: »

I did know what you were talking about but I thought I'd give an example of where it actually happened.

The British military is liable to cross Irish borders these days in an effort to help us in a search and rescue role.. And our Air Corps does the same up north, recently we provided a water bucket carrying heli to help the northern authorities fight gorse fires during our hot dry summer.

These poppy threads always lift the rocks under which post ceasefire republicans shelter, I just don't bother getting into discussion with them.

Personally I think the Poppy Appeal is a great charity in so far as it helps the general public to remember the men and women who'd served in the British armed forces, and the donations help those soldiers and their families during difficult times.

Outside of that I leave the hysterics to the republican knuckle draggers who only emerge during discussions like this, the Easter Lilly and the Israeli/Palestine monkeys tea party.

Your role as a member of our (so called) Defence Forces is to protect the State and it’s people... yet you think a charity that raises money for people in a foreign army that have attacked the Irish state and murdered its citizens is a “great charity”?

Sounds a bit messed up to me.

bobbysands81

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Your role as a member of our (so called) Defence Forces is to protect the State and it’s people... yet you think a charity that raises money for people in a foreign army that have attacked the Irish state and murdered its citizens is a “great charity”?

Sounds a bit messed up to me.

Didn’t the IRA attack the Irish state, it’s soldiers, police force and even refused to recognize the Dail until recently?

riffmongous

Aegir wrote: »

Didn’t the IRA attack the Irish state, it’s soldiers, police force and even refused to recognize the Dail until recently?

The Continuity IRA still don't

RustyNut

Allyson Obnoxious Tailgate wrote: »

Aegir wrote: »

Fascinating character.

You know what I mean though, it’s not like the RIR are going to turn up for work tomorrow and be told right lads, grab your guns we’re off to Cavan.

Hostilities take weeks/months to build up before any actual fighting takes place.

I did know what you were talking about but I thought I'd give an example of where it actually happened.

The British military is liable to cross Irish borders these days in an effort to help us in a search and rescue role.. And our Air Corps does the same up north, recently we provided a water bucket carrying heli to help the northern authorities fight gorse fires during our hot dry summer.

These poppy threads always lift the rocks under which post ceasefire republicans shelter, I just don't bother getting into discussion with them.

Personally I think the Poppy Appeal is a great charity in so far as it helps the general public to remember the men and women who'd served in the British armed forces, and the donations help those soldiers and their families during difficult times.

Outside of that I leave the hysterics to the republican knuckle draggers who only emerge during discussions like this, the Easter Lilly and the Israeli/Palestine monkeys tea party.

It's a good job there are some pro imperialist West brit zionizt terror sympathisers here to tell people how it really is.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Allyson Obnoxious Tailgate wrote: »

These poppy threads always lift the rocks under which post ceasefire republicans shelter, I just don't bother getting into discussion with them.

Outside of that I leave the hysterics to the republican knuckle draggers who only emerge during discussions like this, the Easter Lilly and the Israeli/Palestine monkeys tea party.

Fortunately, those Republicans who led the Peace Process (and even the Unionists & Loyalists who eventually followed) had a far greater understanding of the need for discussion with their political and military opponents.

The fact that you dismiss Republicans as knuckle draggers just highlights your own particular prejudices. Is every Sinn Féin voter a knuckle dragger? If you think so, you've just insulted a very significant number of people on this island.

Sunny Disposition

Allyson Obnoxious Tailgate wrote: »

I did know what you were talking about but I thought I'd give an example of where it actually happened.

The British military is liable to cross Irish borders these days in an effort to help us in a search and rescue role.. And our Air Corps does the same up north, recently we provided a water bucket carrying heli to help the northern authorities fight gorse fires during our hot dry summer.

These poppy threads always lift the rocks under which post ceasefire republicans shelter, I just don't bother getting into discussion with them.

Personally I think the Poppy Appeal is a great charity in so far as it helps the general public to remember the men and women who'd served in the British armed forces, and the donations help those soldiers and their families during difficult times.

Outside of that I leave the hysterics to the republican knuckle draggers who only emerge during discussions like this, the Easter Lilly and the Israeli/Palestine monkeys tea party.

A great charity helping British soldiers? The family and friends of Aidan McAnespie might not agree. There might be some merit in remembering people who were killed in wars, but none at all in giving money to people on the basis they were part of the British Army, which killed many civilians in Ireland during the Troubles and evaded responsibility.

AudreyHepburn

Zebra3 wrote: »

But they weren’t innocent young men.

Your hero went and picked up a gun to kill people to make money for himself.

There’s no innocence in that.

You’re making him sound like a hit man. He was, I can assure you, far from it.

Snickers Man

Allyson Obnoxious Tailgate wrote: »

As a serving soldier I don't wear a poppy, but I've donated to the appeal because it helps a lot of Irish families during their hardest times.. But besides that I'd also defend another Irish persons wish to donate to the poppy appeal by wearing a poppy.

No problem with that.

An ardent Irish nationalist of my acquaintance was once, while working in Northern Ireland way back in the 1980s, invited to contribute to the Poppy Appeal. He later learned that his tolerant manner, and cultured southern Irish accent, had convinced many of his circle that he was in fact an Irish Protestant with likely Unionist sensibilities.

On receiving the request he could see one of his colleagues, who knew him well, look aghast at the poppy seller and clearly trying to indicate wordlessly "No! Not him! He's a Fenian. Don't embarrass him!"

His response was that he'd be delighted to buy a poppy and contribute to the appeal. After all, his own father had been a war casualty while serving in the British army and his own mother might have benefited from the generosity of the British Legion.

"But," he announced emphatically. "I'll be damned if I'm going to wear it!"

What's more important? Actions (donating to the appeal) or gestures (posing with the poppy)?

Private citizens can do what they like as far as I'm concerned. But I think it is utterly inappropriate for representatives of this state to wear a symbol commemorating all actions of an army that is not our own, over which we have no influence, and was frequently our adversary.

I don't care what Sinn Fein's airhead candidate for the presidency thinks.

Zebra3

I find it hilarious that so many think the poppy appeal is a great charity.

Why doesn’t the British state just look after its’ killers?

Ragnar Lothbrok

Zebra3 wrote: »

I find it hilarious that so many think the poppy appeal is a great charity.

Why doesn’t the British state just look after its’ killers?

Because the British state doesn't give a fook about the young, mainly working class men it sends out to do its dirty work.