Poppy

markodaly

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Your posting history in every single IRA/SF thread says different!

100% correct. In the Kingsmill thread, he tried in vain to justify the tactics and violence the PIRA used.

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yet in this thread

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057923797/1

You had no issue with SF publicly remembering a man who blew up innocent men women and children without a thought to how hurtful and insulting it would be to their families.

Double standards indeed francie.

I have no issue with remembrance. Is there something wrong with your inability to read what is being said.

All communities must be allowed to remember respectfully.

When one community/player deliberately does it to taunt and hurt, then that is wrong and deserves to be criticised.

And I believe the poppy does hurt, because it is a public symbol of support for the BA actions, in the past and present.

markodaly

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yet in this thread

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057923797/1

You had no issue with SF publicly remembering a man who blew up innocent men women and children without a thought to how hurtful and insulting it would be to their families.

Double standards indeed francie.

This quote is comedy gold.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108502425&postcount=30

Get out and see the world. COmmunities that have been in conflict remember their dead the world over. Armies do too.

The conflict/war here is over. Every one - on all sides - requires the space to remember their dead.

So, a memorial to remember the Shankhill Bomber - good
The poppy - evil and bad.

/thread

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no issue with remembrance. Is there something wrong with your inability to read what is being said.

All communities must be allowed to remember respectfully.

When one community/player deliberately does it to taunt and hurt, then that is wrong and deserves to be criticised.

And I believe the poppy does hurt, because it is a public symbol of support for the BA actions, in the past and present.

The fact that you cant even see that a memorial to a terrorist and bomber could possibly be hurtful speaks volumes of your lack of empathy and cop on, to be honest.

You cant square that circle.

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no issue with remembrance. Is there something wrong with your inability to read what is being said.

You obviously do have an isuue with other peoples rememberance

All communities must be allowed to remember respectfully.

And the poppy to English people is exactly that

When one community/player deliberately does it to taunt and hurt, then that is wrong and deserves to be criticised.

Like wearing a loaf of kingsmill bread on your head on the day of the kingsmill massacre say?

And I believe the poppy does hurt, because it is a public symbol of support for the BA actions, in the past and present.

As you keep spouting, but thats all it is, your belief.

Mookie Blaylock

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no issue with remembrance. Is there something wrong with your inability to read what is being said.

All communities must be allowed to remember respectfully.

When one community/player deliberately does it to taunt and hurt, then that is wrong and deserves to be criticised.

And I believe the poppy does hurt, because it is a public symbol of support for the BA actions, in the past and present.

Sounds like we'll be changing the Easter lilly to a Snowflake as people are feeling so hurt

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The fact that you cant even see that a memorial to a terrorist and bomber could possibly be hurtful speaks volumes of your lack of empathy and cop on, to be honest.

You cant square that circle.

It was a remembrance at a gravestone. That a newspaper sensationally reported on it is par for the course, when republicans do it.

I don't have a problem with remembrance ceremonies. You can choose to attend or not.

A public wearing of a symbol of support is a different thing.

FrancieBrady

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You obviously do have an isuue with other peoples rememberance

I don't believe people who support the wearing of poppies here do it to solely to remember. A co-incidence that they are also notable defenders of the BA here? Nope.

And the poppy to English people is exactly that

It is also support for the BA, if you pay the RBL. Fact.

Like wearing a loaf of kingsmill bread on your head on the day of the kingsmill massacre say?

As I said very clearly at the time, if he did it deliberately to hurt the survivors of a massacre I have always condemned, then HE DESERVES JAIL TIME.

As I argued, there was simply no evidence to suggest that a man who had never before engaged in this kind of taunting suddenly decided to, 20 years after the event.
The evidence pointed to him engaging in another innocuous silly joke, that he is known for.

As you keep spouting, but thats all it is, your belief.

Yes, it is my belief, and this is a discussion forum. You wouldn't be trying to silence me by any chance?:D

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was a remembrance at a gravestone. That a newspaper sensationally reported on it is par for the course, when republicans do it.

It was actually a commemoration to remember the 'brave and fallen' as SF put it.

I don't have a problem with remembrance ceremonies. You can choose to attend or not.

Nor do I. If you want to commemorate a bomber who murdered kids, be my guest but don't expect an easy ride.

A public wearing of a symbol of support is a different thing.

Ah so you don't believe in freedom of choice, conscience, and expression. It is a free country Frankie, whether you like it or not. To quote you back..

Every one - on all sides - requires the space to remember their dead.

For some, that means wearing a Poppy.

You cannot square that circle.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The evidence pointed to him engaging in another innocuous silly joke, that he is known for.

Just happened to be an anniversary of the massacre, he was the real victim in all this.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Ah so you don't believe in freedom of choice, conscience, and expression. It is a free country Frankie, whether you like it or not. To quote you back..



.

You just excercised the right to criticise what SF did in a graveyard, and then tried to take that right (to criticise) away from me.

Self serving Flip Flop? Or just abject failure of logic?

markodaly

[QUOTE=FrancieBrady;108642159

Yes, it is my belief, and this is a discussion forum. You wouldn't be trying to silence me by any chance?:D[/QUOTE]

As I already mentioned, you are now, two years running the most prolific poster in these poppy threads. No one is trying to silence you, they are however calling you out on double standards, hypocrisy and intolerance.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Just happened to be an anniversary of the massacre, he was the real victim in all this.

Kingsmill bread is available for sale 365 days of the year. I have a loaf of it here in my bread bin right now.

I didn't say anything about him being the real 'victim'. Are you getting that desperate?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You just excercised the right to criticise what SF did in a graveyard, and then tried to take that right (to criticise) away from me.

How am I taking that right away from you? I am not a mod, so I am can't ban you, but I will call you out on your blatant double standards and goalpost shifting.
There is a difference you know.

Timberrrrrrrr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't believe people who support the wearing of poppies here do it to solely to remember. A co-incidence that they are also notable defenders of the BA here? Nope.

And again this is your problem, you are taking your beliefs and attempting to state them as facts.

It is also support for the BA, if you pay the RBL. Fact.

Nooe, again it's your belief.

As I said very clearly at the time, if he did it deliberately to hurt the survivors of a massacre I have always condemned, then HE DESERVES JAIL TIME.

It's ibvious to everyone but hardline republicans like yourself that he did it on purpose.

As I argued, there was simply no evidence to suggest that a man who had never before engaged in this kind of taunting suddenly decided to, 20 years after the event.
The evidence pointed to him engaging in another innocuous silly joke, that he is known for.

Yeah, hilarious im sure for the families involved

Yes, it is my belief, and this is a discussion forum. You wouldn't be trying to silence me by any chance?:D

Ah not this old chestnut again :rolleyes:

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Kingsmill bread is available for sale 365 days of the year. I have a loaf of it here in my bread bin right now.

I didn't say anything about him being the real 'victim'. Are you getting that desperate?

Sigh, the fact he made the 'joke' on the weekend of the 30th anniversary seemed to be quite a coincidence.

Regardless, the fact SF did not immediately sack him, a decision you stood by was most galling. It took them about a week to do the honorable thing, a decision you also lamented which you described as 'the whingers won"

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

How am I taking that right away from you? I am not a mod, so I am can't ban you, but I will call you out on your blatant double standards and goalpost shifting.
There is a difference you know.

I have no problem with respectful remembrance. None whatsoever and am on record saying that ALL communities must be allowed to remember their dead.

I do have a problem with publicly wearing a symbol that many find hurtful and offensive because it supports the actions of the BA past present and future.
I have exactly the same problem with the Easter Lily and would not wear it.

What double standards?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Sigh, the fact he made the 'joke' on the weekend of the 30th anniversary seemed to be quite a coincidence.

Regardless, the fact SF did not immediately sack him, a decision you stood by was most galling. It took them about a week to do the honorable thing, a decision you also lamented which you described as 'the whingers won"

He immediately, on realising the connotations of what he did, took the video down. And apologised.
Everyone, including myself, thought it was a stupid mistake on his part not to realise the connection given the day.

Why would SF immediately sack him without allowing him to explain?
When the controversy would not die down, he did the honourable thing and stepped aside while again apologising for what he claimed was a genuine lapse.

You can chose to believe him or not. But please do not infer that I would have defended him, had I believed he did it deliberately. That is completely wrong, in fairness.

The Rape of Lucretia

The whole northern Ireland troubles thing, while extremely tragic for those caught up in the terrorism, are, in the greater scheme of things, an almost insignificant matter, and no one should be influenced by them on the symbolism of wearing a poppy and remembering the millions who dies serving their countries. It displays no sense of proportion. And even a continually harmful, and problematic, attitude to relations on the island of Ireland.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no problem with respectful remembrance. None whatsoever and am on record saying that ALL communities must be allowed to remember their dead.

I do have a problem with publicly wearing a symbol that many find hurtful and offensive because it supports the actions of the BA past present and future.
I have exactly the same problem with the Easter Lily and would not wear it.

What double standards?

See in bold.

You do know the double standard is the fact that you have no problem with people commemorating a terrorist child killer while having a problem with some people wearing a Poppy.
You are the one who is trying to define how to remember and commemorate.

Thankfully we live in a free country where people can choose how to remember their dead in their own way, be it wearing a Poppy or going to a grave.

If it were up to you, you would ban the Poppy from being worn in public as if you were the Taliban.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He immediately, on realising the connotations of what he did, took the video down. And apologised.

Like a day later, even after it was pointed out to him that the 'joke' was not a joke?

Why would SF immediately sack him without allowing him to explain?

He was not asked to resign which is political speak for 'make the problem go away'. It was a cluster **** of epic proportions by SF leadership.

When the controversy would not die down, he did the honourable thing and stepped aside while again apologising for what he claimed was a genuine lapse.

It would not die down because of the way it was handled by SF.

You can chose to believe him or not. But please do not infer that I would have defended him, had I believed he did it deliberately. That is completely wrong, in fairness.

In fairness, your morals and motives change like the breeze. It does not appear to matter what the story is or what the facts are, but who the story is about. If its anyway to do with Irish Republicanism, you pin your colour to the mast and start digging that trench. It's plain for all to see.

Spook_ie

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is a bit like trying to validate the wearing of a swastika because you personally like the shape it makes.

A poppy bought from the RBL supports the actions of the BA, past present and future.
There is no ambiguity. It is what it is.

And it is getting bigger and more demonstrative and the poppy fascists are getting louder.

The real question, because I don't think people have spotted your caveat, is what do you think about the poppy as a symbol.

i.e if someone had a non BL poppy as a sign of remembrance

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

See in bold.

You do know the double standard is the fact that you have no problem with people commemorating a terrorist child killer while having a problem with some people wearing a Poppy.
You are the one who is trying to define how to remember and commemorate.

Thankfully we live in a free country where people can choose how to remember their dead in their own way, be it wearing a Poppy or going to a grave.

If it were up to you, you would ban the Poppy from being worn in public as if you were the Taliban.

They were not, I can assure you, commemorating a 'terrorist child killer'. That is your assessment of his value.

If it is Talibanesque to ban hurtful divisive public demonstrations of support for an army that did much damage here, then so be it. As I have repeatedly said, I would apply it equally to those on the Irish side doing the same.

There are plenty of ways to respectfully remember your dead without doing that. Graveside ceremonies being one, or ceremonies at monuments.

Marching where you know it will taunt and enflame, wearing symbols in public, deliberately taunting victims are all off limits for me.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They were not, I can assure you, commemorating a 'terrorist child killer'. That is your assessment of his value.

Did his bomb not kill children? Then he is a terrorist child killer. Simples!

If it is Talibanesque to ban hurtful divisive public demonstrations of support for an army that did much damage here, then so be it.

Well, at least you are upfront about it.:)

Although it makes a mockery of your claim to be an Irish Republican of any shade, seeing as that our constitution makes clear provisions in regards freedom of expression, which includes the Poppy.

Maybe we should just ignore the last 5 constitutional referendums while we are at it Francie, seeing as they may have hurt people along the way. Welcome to 1970's Ireland. lol

There are plenty of ways to respectfully remember your dead without doing that.

Ah, but that is the beauty of living in a free country. People can choose all types of ways to remember their own dead, including wearing a Poppy if they wish. You are not the arbitrator on what is or is not an acceptable method to remember the dead, thankfully. The individual themselves can decide that.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Like a day later, even after it was pointed out to him that the 'joke' was not a joke?




He was not asked to resign which is political speak for 'make the problem go away'. It was a cluster **** of epic proportions by SF leadership.



It would not die down because of the way it was handled by SF.



In fairness, your morals and motives change like the breeze. It does not appear to matter what the story is or what the facts are, but who the story is about. If its anyway to do with Irish Republicanism, you pin your colour to the mast and start digging that trench. It's plain for all to see.

Can you back up what you are claiming here?

I said from the get go that he made an incredibly stupid lapse of judgement not realising the significance of the day and apologised immediately he did realise.
Any other day, had he decided to do that silly joke (his forte, it seems) it would have no significance. Co-incidence does happen and this as far as I can tell (based on his record of not taunting victims ever) was one.

The 'he's a republican - he must have evil intent - doesn't work for me. Clearly does for some on this site, because everything they do is evil or wrong. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Did his bomb not kill children? Then he is a terrorist child killer. Simples!



Well, at least you are upfront about it.:)

Although it makes a mockery of your claim to be an Irish Republican of any shade, seeing as that our constitution makes clear provisions in regards freedom of expression, which includes the Poppy.

Maybe we should just ignore the last 5 constitutional referendums while we are at it Francie, seeing as they may have hurt people along the way. Welcome to 1970's Ireland. lol



Ah, but that is the beauty of living in a free country. People can choose all types of ways to remember their own dead, including wearing a Poppy if they wish. You are not the arbitrator on what is or is not an acceptable method to remember the dead, thankfully. The individual themselves can decide that.

You are 'free' to do it, but you are NOT free from criticism for doing it.

twinytwo

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The whole northern Ireland troubles thing, while extremely tragic for those caught up in the terrorism, are, in the greater scheme of things, an almost insignificant matter, and no one should be influenced by them on the symbolism of wearing a poppy and remembering the millions who dies serving their countries. It displays no sense of proportion. And even a continually harmful, and problematic, attitude to relations on the island of Ireland.

That's all well and good, remember the dead.

But then why are all innocents killed as part of the the numerous war crimes committed (not just in NI)never remembered/referenced?

It is always for the soldiers that died in battle?

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you back up what you are claiming here?

I said from the get go that he made an incredibly stupid lapse of judgement not realising the significance of the day and apologised immediately he did realise.
Any other day, had he decided to do that silly joke (his forte, it seems) it would have no significance. Co-incidence does happen and this as far as I can tell (based on his record of not taunting victims ever) was one.

The 'he's a republican - he must have evil intent - doesn't work for me. Clearly does for some on this site, because everything they do is evil or wrong. :rolleyes:

Neither does "He's a republican so i will assume he doesn't have evil intent".

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Neither does "He's a republican so i will assume he doesn't have evil intent".

Well, I looked for evidence of 'evil intent' in that case and could not find anything to show why he had suddenly, 20 years after the end of the conflict and 40 years after the event itself, suddenly decided to have a pop at the victims.
I looked at his history of rather silly video making and saw it in that context. A silly video about a 'where's the bread' thing that some find funny. That happened to co-incide with an anniversary.
We use Kingsmill bread here all the time, as we live on the border, and never have I associated it with the massacre tbh.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are 'free' to do it, but you are NOT free from criticism for doing it.

Did I ever say you are not free to criticise?

It is you that wants to ban this symbol from the public display like Ireland was some theocracy or dictatorship. That I dare say is much much more than mere criticism. That my friend goes against bunreacht na heireann.

You are of course free to have this belief but in return, we can rightly call you out for being a reactionary autocratic zealot.