Poppy

trixi001 · 22-10-2018 5:13pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

wexie wrote: »

that's what makes the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter.

for most people it really is as simple as that unfortunately

I don’t believe anyone in their right mind would call the IRA freedom fighters.

What about the 100,000 members in 1919 - 1922 - were they not freedom fighters?
Was it fine for the Irish people island wide to fight for freedom in the early 1900's and 1798 and various other Irish rebellions, but when those in the North continued to fight for freedom the same people who gloriously remember the heroes from 1916, denounce the "current" IRA.
This pattern continuously repeats -
The South's government condemned the anti-treaty IRA during the civil war
The South's government (which included those who would have been anti-treaty) in the 1960's condemned the IRA in the North
Sinn Fein after the IRA ceasefire in 1990's condemn the IRA (under its various factions)

To me its all a bit hypocritical, how come it is only acceptable to fight for Irish Freedom at certain times and by certain people?

Disclaimer - I do not support violence by any side!

22-10-2018 6:22pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

This goes to the heart of the matter.

It doesn't matter whether a person wants money to go to those who served in the north or not, they have no say in where the money goes and therefore are funding those responsible for many cases of direct and indirect murder in the north.

so, a bit like selling an Easter Lilly then

22-10-2018 6:34pm

lawred2 wrote: »

well luckily when you buy a poppy you are given the checklist of conflicts to check off that you are ok with. Makes sure that your donation is ringfenced.

It's important that they provide that facility or else you'd just be contributing to a large pool of murderous activity. Some of which you mightn't even approve of.

Jesus, that's going to be one hell of a small ring fence, although no doubt 'Liberation of Ireland from Irish tyranny in 1920' is one of the options along with 'Liberation of Kenya from Kenyan tyranny in 1956'.

lawred2 wrote: »

you'd just be contributing to a large pool of murderous activity. Some of which you mightn't even approve of.

Hehe. Brilliant.

22-10-2018 6:57pm

Aegir wrote: »

so, a bit like selling an Easter Lilly then

If the Easter Lily were sold to commemorate the footsoldiers of centuries of Irish colonial occupation of Britain and subjugation of the poor British, you might be on to something analogous.

As it's not, the reality is more like the British poppy pushers wanting to commemorate the perpetrators of centuries of colonial warmongering and subjugation, and the other side wanting to commemorate those who resisted it.

It's a no-brainer to determine the good guys here - yet somehow you consistently manage to align yourself with the bad guys. Well done.

whisky_galore · 22-10-2018 6:59pm

Aegir wrote: »

so, a bit like selling an Easter Lilly then

What does selling that fund now?

Diesel laundering operations?

MonkieSocks · 22-10-2018 7:12pm

trixi001 wrote: »

What about the 100,000 members in 1919 - 1922 - were they not freedom fighters?
Was it fine for the Irish people island wide to fight for freedom in the early 1900's and 1798 and various other Irish rebellions, but when those in the North continued to fight for freedom the same people who gloriously remember the heroes from 1916, denounce the "current" IRA.
This pattern continuously repeats -
The South's government condemned the anti-treaty IRA during the civil war
The South's government (which included those who would have been anti-treaty) in the 1960's condemned the IRA in the North
Sinn Fein after the IRA ceasefire in 1990's condemn the IRA (under its various factions)

To me its all a bit hypocritical, how come it is only acceptable to fight for Irish Freedom at certain times and by certain people?

Disclaimer - I do not support violence by any side!

+

The South's government Internment of the IRA , in Tin Town during WW2

22-10-2018 7:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a no-brainer to determine the good guys here

is it?

are the good guys the ones that murder and torture, or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

lawred2 · 22-10-2018 7:55pm

Aegir wrote: »

is it?

are the good guys the ones that murder and torture, or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

The imperialists I think...

Odhinn · 22-10-2018 7:58pm

Aegir wrote: »

is it?

are the good guys the ones that murder and torture, or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

Well, are the ones who conquered the following and ruled in general them by main force on racist/sectarian lines the ones you're referring to?

Afghanistan, Antigua, and Barbuda,
The Bahamas, Bahrain, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Cyprus ,Dominica, Egypt , Fiji, The Gambia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, India, Ireland Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati , Kuwait, Lesotho, Libya, Malawi, ,Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Myanmar, Nauru, New Zealand, Nigeria Pakistan, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts, and Nevis Saint Vincent, and the Grenadines, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Tonga Trinidad, and Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, United Arab Emirates, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe?

22-10-2018 8:03pm

Aegir wrote: »

is it?

are the good guys the ones that murder and torture, or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

Which side of the fence would you put these lads on Aegir? Wondering are they getting a leg up from the RBL too?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/08/empire-torture-kenya-catastrophe-europe

lawred2 · 22-10-2018 8:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which side of the fence would you put these lads on Aegir? Wondering are they getting a leg up from the RBL too?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/08/empire-torture-kenya-catastrophe-europe

Isn't the poppy a lovely color all the same though?

22-10-2018 8:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which side of the fence would you put these lads on Aegir? Wondering are they getting a leg up from the RBL too?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/08/empire-torture-kenya-catastrophe-europe

Which side of the fence would you put These guys?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/suspects-for-callous-jerry-mccabe-killing-still-on-the-run-20-years-later-34774978.html

http://www.nga.ie/Post%201923-Barnes&McCormick.php

Sunny Disposition · 22-10-2018 8:21pm

I think the debate is actually clearer when the focus is narrowed. The Poppy Appeal is morally wrong because the people who committed the Bloody Sunday atrocity and covered it up are among those eligible to benefit.
I doubt many but the most blinkered will disagree.

22-10-2018 8:30pm

Aegir wrote: »

Which side of the fence would you put These guys?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/suspects-for-callous-jerry-mccabe-killing-still-on-the-run-20-years-later-34774978.html

http://www.nga.ie/Post%201923-Barnes&McCormick.php

Interesting response. So you refuse to offer an opinion on people who would mimic "Arbeit Macht Frei" on a sign above the front gate of an internment camp?

22-10-2018 8:30pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I think the debate is actually clearer when the focus is narrowed. The Poppy Appeal is morally wrong because the people who committed the Bloody Sunday atrocity and covered it up are among those eligible to benefit.
I doubt many but the most blinkered will disagree.

And selling the Easter Lilly raises funds that support ex volunteers and keeps memorials to murderers and nazi collaborators.

You can’t wear one and criticize the other. That is hypocritical.

I’m not saying you should or should not wear either, but both are similar symbols that need you to take the rough with the smooth if you wear them.

Sunny Disposition · 22-10-2018 10:35pm

Aegir wrote: »

And selling the Easter Lilly raises funds that support ex volunteers and keeps memorials to murderers and nazi collaborators.

You can’t wear one and criticize the other. That is hypocritical.

I’m not saying you should or should not wear either, but both are similar symbols that need you to take the rough with the smooth if you wear them.

I don’t wear either, I feel the Lilly has been tainted. Tbh you could wear one and criticize the other if that’s your belief though.
I’d have no problem with the poppy appeal if the money was just for WW1 memorials, but putting your cash into the hands of the scum who were behind Bloody Sunday, killing Aidan McAnespie etc is just vile.
It’s a pity it is so associated with remembering the dead, who obviously can’t benefit, Lee Clegg and his likes are the ones who will benefit.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 23-10-2018 1:17pm

Aegir wrote: »

You can’t wear one and criticize the other. That is hypocritical.

Here we go again......... how many times are you going to state this ridiculous opinion?

The Easter Lily is worn to commemorate Irish people who fought against a foreign oppressor (ie the British).

The poppy day appeal raises funds for that same oppressor.

How can anyone that isn't a Unionist wear a poppy in good conscience?

maccored · 23-10-2018 1:23pm

Aegir wrote: »

is it?

or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

... with murder and torture

23-10-2018 2:12pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Here we go again......... how many times are you going to state this ridiculous opinion?

The Easter Lily is worn to commemorate Irish people who fought against a foreign oppressor (ie the British).

And where does the money go?

Ragnar Lothbrok · 23-10-2018 4:03pm

Aegir wrote: »

And where does the money go?

The upkeep of national monuments around the whole country (ie 32 counties). It might surprise you to know that there are thousands and thousands of these, and some (possibly even most) would fall into complete disrepair if they weren't maintained. Not that you'd probably care.

23-10-2018 4:57pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

The upkeep of national monuments around the whole country (ie 32 counties). It might surprise you to know that there are thousands and thousands of these, and some (possibly even most) would fall into complete disrepair if they weren't maintained. Not that you'd probably care.

I do actually. It begs the question though, why isn't the government doing this? these are the graves and monuments of people who gave their lives for this country?

some of whom, incidentally, murdered innocent people and collaborated with Nazis to invade the state and overthrow the democratically elected government of the day.

Ragnar Lothbrok · 23-10-2018 5:02pm

Aegir wrote: »

I do actually. It begs the question though, why isn't the government doing this? these are the graves and monuments of people who gave their lives for this country?

some of whom, incidentally, murdered innocent people and collaborated with Nazis to invade the state and overthrow the democratically elected government of the day.

I would love to see the government provide the money to do this. Until such times, I'll continue to collect money by selling lilies each Easter.

I won't dignify your second comment with an answer.

23-10-2018 5:04pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I would love to see the government provide the money to do this. Until such times, I'll continue to collect money by selling lilies each Easter.

That's nice of you. Loads of poppy selelrs think the exact same thing.

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I won't dignify your second comment with an answer.

because the truth hurts?

23-10-2018 5:11pm

Aegir wrote: »

is it?

are the good guys the ones that murder and torture, or the ones that fight fascism and oppression?

The irony here is utterly beautiful. Remind me, now... the poppy imperialism in 2018 is organised by... the Royal British Legion...which... in 1938 was...like the British government (shhh) ... supporting fascism and oppression in Germany, just as it had been since the Nazis came to power in January 1933? Response: "You have to understand, the communists were the real danger in the 1930s and we saw Hitler as a bulwark against them!" Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner.

Who are these lovely opponents of fascism and oppression, to whom you allude, talking to that great humanitarian with the moustache in 1938, 5 years after the first Nazi Concentration Camps (Dachau, March 1933) were opened, 3 years after the explicitly and shockingly anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws were passed, 3 years after Britain had signed the lucrative Anglo-German Naval Agreement 1935, and in the same year as Britain and the US, definitely not on their post-WWII high horses, shamefully refused to accept any more Jewish refugees at the Évian Conference 1938? (The poor Dominican Republic agreed to accept 100,000 Jewish refugees)

If you answered "Oh, that's Major Francis Fetherston-Godley, Chairman of the British Legion, leading a delegation to Mr Hitler to tell him how the British Legion had raised 20,000 British volunteers to help the Nazis "police" the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia Germany had just invaded" you'd get full marks.

Appendix 1: British Legion plan for police force in Czechoslovakia

British collaboration with Nazi Germany 1932-39: acceptable
Anybody else's collaboration with Nazi Germany after Britain stopped collaborating in September 1939: "oh my God, I can't believe you collaborated with those evil Nazis!"

The jingoistic, revisionist John Bull comedies about "standing up to oppression" are consistently entertaining. Not least because you still had my people in the Occupied Six Counties faoi chois in a British settler-colonial herrenvolk statelet - a statelet whose powers were infamously the envy of the apartheid South African Minister for Justice, B.J. Vorster in a parliamentary speech as late as 1967- long after you're trying to pass yourselves off as heroes of the oppressed above.

23-10-2018 5:12pm

more predictable rubbish from Fuaranch I see:rolleyes:

whisky_galore · 23-10-2018 5:20pm

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I would love to see the government provide the money to do this. Until such times, I'll continue to collect money by selling lilies each Easter.

I won't dignify your second comment with an answer.

Selling what amounts to a relatively small number of lilies is hardly going to fund the upkeep of 1000s of monuments (to be added to shortly by 100s more when all the centenaries wind up.)
The local people (you would think) would maintain them, you don't see too Marian grottoes falling down..

23-10-2018 5:32pm

Aegir wrote: »

more predictable rubbish from Fuaranch I see:rolleyes:

That's a real Fratton Fred answer to when you can't counter uncomfortable facts about Britain's collaboration with Nazi Germany.

whisky_galore · 23-10-2018 5:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a real Fratton Fred answer to when you can't counter uncomfortable facts about Britain's collaboration with Nazi Germany.

How many statues of Nazi collaborators do the British have now?

JohnnyFlash · 23-10-2018 5:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The irony here is utterly beautiful. Remind me, now... the poppy imperialism in 2018 is organised by... the Royal British Legion...which... in 1938 was...like the British government (shhh) ... supporting fascism and oppression in Germany, just as it had been since the Nazis came to power in January 1933? Response: "You have to understand, the communists were the real danger in the 1930s and we saw Hitler as a bulwark against them!" Tout comprendre c'est tout pardonner.

Who are these lovely opponents of fascism and oppression, to whom you allude, talking to that great humanitarian with the moustache in 1938, 5 years after the first Nazi Concentration Camps (Dachau, March 1933) were opened, 3 years after the explicitly and shockingly anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws were passed, 3 years after Britain had signed the lucrative Anglo-German Naval Agreement 1935, and in the same year as Britain and the US, definitely not on their post-WWII high horses, shamefully refused to accept any more Jewish refugees at the Évian Conference 1938? (The poor Dominican Republic agreed to accept 100,000 Jewish refugees)

If you answered "Oh, that's Major Francis Fetherston-Godley, Chairman of the British Legion, leading a delegation to Mr Hitler to tell him how the British Legion had raised 20,000 British volunteers to help the Nazis "police" the Sudetenland area of Czechoslovakia Germany had just invaded" you'd get full marks.

Appendix 1: British Legion plan for police force in Czechoslovakia

British collaboration with Nazi Germany 1932-39: acceptable
Anybody else's collaboration with Nazi Germany after Britain stopped collaborating in September 1939: "oh my God, I can't believe you collaborated with those evil Nazis!"

The jingoistic, revisionist John Bull comedies about "standing up to oppression" are consistently entertaining. Not least because you still had my people in the Occupied Six Counties faoi chois in a British settler-colonial herrenvolk statelet - a statelet whose powers were infamously the envy of the apartheid South African Minister for Justice, B.J. Vorster in a parliamentary speech as late as 1967- long after you're trying to pass yourselves off as heroes of the oppressed above.

I’d say you’re a right laugh at parties.

23-10-2018 6:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a real Fratton Fred answer to when you can't counter uncomfortable facts about Britain's collaboration with Nazi Germany.

it isn't worth it. You have an incredible ability to make one plus one equal whatever it is you want it to be, so there is no point in debating anything with you whatsoever. For starters, you post a picture from 1935 and claim it is from October 1938.

Any one with the ability to read knows the background to the Sudeten crisis and why the RBL offer to supervise the plebiscite.

I note, of course, that you have completely ignored any of my previous points just so that you could go off on another of your famous rants.

Poppy

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