Poppy

OldMrBrennan83

Lillian Cuddly Memoir wrote: »

Somebody should build a wall around pats gaffe although I wouldn't think it would be fair to the other patients.

Not a fan of facts?

zapitastas

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You can't argue with armchair republicans and their ilk who take their understanding of recent Irish history from film nonsense like Michael Collins and the odd contextually removed sentence sourced from Google books.

Don't you or anyone else waste the rest of your Sunday with this ****e.

I can understand the last couple of years have been difficult for people like yourself. Watching the last vestiges of empire dwindle away in a flood of stupidity and nonsensical immolation.

Odhinn

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You can't argue with armchair republicans and their ilk who take their understanding of recent Irish history from film nonsense like Michael Collins and the odd contextually removed sentence sourced from Google books.

Don't you or anyone else waste the rest of your Sunday with this ****e.

This is from the person who said

The general populace of Ireland, like most British colonies at the time, were just getting on with their life with a fairly sound infrastructure in place. I know for hard-line republicans that's a bitter pill to swallow but there you go.

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You can't argue with armchair republicans and their ilk who take their understanding of recent Irish history from film nonsense like Michael Collins and the odd contextually removed sentence sourced from Google books.

Don't you or anyone else waste the rest of your Sunday with this ****e.

So, in other words you don't have the historical knowledge to support all your earlier historically ignorant West Brit rubbish and you're now upset at being called out on it so you're resorting to ad hominems?

Get used to it. All those "Britannia rules the waves" concepts of the past are going to be increasingly under attack as British power wanes as a result of Brexit. First time in centuries Britain has been on the losing side and your history is going to be rewritten more honestly by the new victors. Long overdue.

Yer Da sells Avon

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

film nonsense like Michael Collins

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

So, in other words you don't have the historical knowledge to support all your earlier historically ignorant West Brit rubbish and you're now upset at being called out on it so you're resorting to ad hominems?

Get used to it. All those "Britannia rules the waves" concepts of the past are going to be increasingly under attack as British power wanes as a result of Brexit. First time in centuries Britain has been on the losing side and your history is going to be rewritten more honestly by the new victors. Long overdue.

There is that element over there that essentially want to revert to their historical role as a better organised "barbary coast" to the West of Europe. Unfortunately for them the days of going to foriegn lands, shooting men armed with sticks with a machine gun and getting a few medals and a bit of plunder for their trouble are largely over. In a way a Brexit that causes hardship could do wonders for that mindset - confront them with not only reality of their place in the world now, but also with exactly what the 'glorious past' was as well.

Folkstonian

Deleted User wrote: »

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You can't argue with armchair republicans and their ilk who take their understanding of recent Irish history from film nonsense like Michael Collins and the odd contextually removed sentence sourced from Google books.

Don't you or anyone else waste the rest of your Sunday with this ****e.

So, in other words you don't have the historical knowledge to support all your earlier historically ignorant West Brit rubbish and you're now upset at been called out on it so you're esorting to ad hominems?

Get used to it. All those "Britannia rules the waves" concepts of the past are going to be increasingly under attack as British power wanes as a result of Brexit. First time in centuries Britain has been on the losing side and your history is going to be rewritten more honestly by the new victors. Long overdue.

It’s the 213th anniversary of the Royal Navy’s victory over the French and Spanish at the battle of Trafalgar today. Coincidental to your reference to British sea power. Definitely Britain’s finest hour at sea, but the world has changed and Britain’s place in it has changed too.

Your triumphalist rhetoric about losers and victors seems very misplaced and unnecessary, but maybe that was your intention as the forum’s resident angry man. Nobody is at war anymore, a thread about the remembrance poppy is surely the most inappropriate place for that sort of language.

Church on Tuesday

Odhinn wrote: »

There is that element over there that essentially want to revert to their historical role as a better organised "barbary coast" to the West of Europe. Unfortunately for them the days of going to foriegn lands, shooting men armed with sticks with a machine gun and getting a few medals and a bit of plunder for their trouble are largely over. In a way a Brexit that causes hardship could do wonders for that mindset - confront them with not only reality of their place in the world now, but also with exactly what the 'glorious past' was as well.

I'm an Irish man born and bred. Read over my post history.

Church on Tuesday

zapitastas wrote: »

I can understand the last couple of years have been difficult for people like yourself. Watching the last vestiges of empire dwindle away in a flood of stupidity and nonsensical immolation.

Not really. I'm Irish not English.

Folkstonian

Folkstonian wrote: »

It’s the 213th anniversary of the Royal Navy’s victory over the French and Spanish at the battle of Trafalgar today. Coincidental to your reference to British sea power. Definitely Britain’s finest hour at sea, but the world has changed and Britain’s place in it has changed too.

Your triumphalist rhetoric about losers and victors seems very misplaced and unnecessary, but maybe that was your intention as the forum’s resident angry man. Nobody is at war anymore, a thread about the remembrance poppy is surely the most inappropriate place for that sort of language.

Perhaps if your crowd had the honesty to spare a thought for the victims of all the whitewashed imperialist thugs and thuggery you glorify in your poppy "remembrance" for two months each year your claim that you're not at war might have some truth?

How you can expect to have your commemorations respected when you refuse to remember all the victims of your aggression is the sort of "Our deaths are most important" entitlement endemic to the British worldview for many years now.

Odhinn

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I'm an Irish man born and bred. Read over my post history.

I never so much as asked as to your passport status/nationality etc - I was referring to that element across the water who seem to think large parts of the map of the world are still painted red.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Get used to it. All those "Britannia rules the waves" concepts of the past

Those were never the lyrics. Or the concept.

The line is "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves". It is in the imperative, as a noble exhortation, and not the present tense as a statement or declamation, as frequently, as here, misquoted and misunderstood.

Church on Tuesday

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps if your crowd had the honesty to spare a thought for the victims of all the whitewashed imperialist thugs and thuggery you glorify in your poppy "remembrance" for two months each year your claim that you're not at war might have some truth?

How you can expect to have your commemorations respected when you refuse to remember all the victims of your aggression is the sort of "Our deaths are most important" entitlement endemic to the British worldview for many years now.

You're kinda coming across as desperate at this stage lad or lassie.

Here's some reading suggestions for you, actual texts not a few abridged quotes from Google books.

Check out Richard English's excellent The History of Nationalism in Ireland and Charles Townsend's Easter 1916.

You will find them in a place called a library.

Both give informed and balanced views of some of the things we tried to discuss.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

Church on Tuesday

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You're kinda coming across as desperate at this stage lad or lassie.

Here's some reading suggestions for you, actual texts not a few abridged quotes from Google books.

Check out Richard English's excellent The History of Nationalism in Ireland and Charles Townsend's Easter 1916.

You will find them in a place called a library.

Both give informed and balanced views of some of the things we tried to discuss.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

'Desperate' is probably the person who got strappy when he was asked for evidence and responded with an ad hominem rant. But nice of you to reference two random books but still be unable to support your earlier claims with a specific page and/or extract. The academic rigour here is not exactly ferocious.

Sunny Disposition

I wonder if the British Legion have ever been asked if any steps have been taken to make sure the men responsible for the murders in Ballymurphy and in Derry in Bloody Sunday do not receive any funds from the Poppy Appeal?

If the journalists who write on the matter at this time of year asked and were told that measures have been taken, it would go a long way to improving the perception of many people.Or if no measures have been taken it would show that they don’t care about British army atrocities.

If you feel compelled, so be it. Otherwise, shut the funk up.

backspin.

No

indioblack

Odhinn wrote: »

And when we are expected to buy goods that go to French soldiers who engaged in those acts we can go into that in detail.

But that isn't going to happen, is it.
The objection to the RBL Appeal is based in the claim that former members of the BA are receiving an undeserved benefit for their actions.
This is a matter of principle.
As a matter of principle, it would not concern me if the benefit came from a public contribution or state finance - since both have the same point of origin. The only difference being that one is a voluntary act and the other is not.
I don't know if former members of the French military were identified and singled out for exemption from benefits because of their activities in, say, Algeria or Indo-China.
I doubt that they were.
In this thread reference has been made to pretty much all of Britain's imperial history - most of which would have little practical, direct connection to the RBL Appeal.
Unless it's a matter of principle - objection to imperialism itself.
If that is so, then the poster's reference to French colonial behaviour is valid.

Odhinn

indioblack wrote: »

But that isn't going to happen, is it.
The objection to the RBL Appeal is based in the claim that former members of the BA are receiving an undeserved benefit for their actions.
This is a matter of principle.
As a matter of principle, it would not concern me if the benefit came from a public contribution or state finance - since both have the same point of origin. The only difference being that one is a voluntary act and the other is not.
I don't know if former members of the French military were identified and singled out for exemption from benefits because of their activities in, say, Algeria or Indo-China.
I doubt that they were.
In this thread reference has been made to pretty much all of Britain's imperial history - most of which would have little practical, direct connection to the RBL Appeal.
Unless it's a matter of principle - objection to imperialism itself.
If that is so, then the poster's reference to French colonial behaviour is valid.

...wtf? It goes to ex military personnell. Unless it was the Royal Ballet out in Cyprus or Kenya torturing and killing, it has a very direct connection to the appeal.

indioblack

Odhinn wrote: »

...wtf? It goes to ex military personnell. Unless it was the Royal Ballet out in Cyprus or Kenya torturing and killing, it has a very direct connection to the appeal.

The imperial history - goes back a long way.
Most would not be around to receive anything - in this life.
If it's a matter of principle then the post is valid.

Odhinn

indioblack wrote: »

The imperial history - goes back a long way.
Most would not be around to receive anything - in this life.
If it's a matter of principle then the post is valid.

There's nobody around who served in NI or Iraq?

indioblack

Odhinn wrote: »

There's nobody around who served in NI or Iraq?

That history goes back for centuries.
That's why I said "most".
If reference is made to the history of imperialism, as it has been in this thread, then the claim made by the poster about another colonial power is valid.
It's still valid if recent history, such as you've mentioned, is used as an objection to such behaviour.
Whether you choose to contribute or the state does, it's a matter of principle.
This thread concerns the RBL Appeal. But when objection is made as to the use of the monies collected and reference is made to historical colonial activity then it includes a debate about imperialism - as the poster referenced.

Odhinn

indioblack wrote: »

That history goes back for centuries.
That's why I said "most".
If reference is made to the history of imperialism, as it has been in this thread, then the claim made by the poster about another colonial power is valid.
It's still valid if recent history, such as you've mentioned, is used as an objection to such behaviour.
Whether you choose to contribute or the state does, it's a matter of principle.
This thread concerns the RBL Appeal. But when objection is made as to the use of the monies collected and reference is made to historical colonial activity then it includes a debate about imperialism - as the poster referenced.

I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

Danzy

timthumbni wrote: »

You should get up off your arse and do a few signs then mate shouldn’t you? Something along the lines of Down with this sort of thing I suppose.....

Poppy day is a small thing, most people hardly know it goes on, why protest it, let them be.

indioblack

Odhinn wrote: »

I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

Posters have objected to the RBL Appeal because of Northern Ireland.
That keeps it simple. Wandering around historical imperialism only muddies the waters.
These threads really only concern one subject.

Odhinn

indioblack wrote: »

Posters have objected to the RBL Appeal because of Northern Ireland.
That keeps it simple. Wandering around historical imperialism only muddies the waters.
These threads really only concern one subject.

While objections because of NI are entirely valid, it would be terribly parochial and narrow to limit them to it and it alone.

Ragnar Lothbrok

indioblack wrote: »

Posters have objected to the RBL Appeal because of Northern Ireland.

Yes, absolutely the main reason I would not support the Poppy Day appeal is the role the British army has had in Ireland. I would not want one cent to be given to anyone who was part of an army that has occupied this country (and still does).

However, that is not to say that I don't have other objections, such as their recent role in Iraq. I don't see that these are mutually exclusive objections.

indioblack wrote: »

That keeps it simple. Wandering around historical imperialism only muddies the waters.

It is those in favour of supporting the appeal that continue to argue that the poppy commemorates the Irish people who dies in the two world wars. The fact that money raised via this appeal goes directly to soldiers who would have been involved in constant and long-term aggression and oppression of Irish people seems to be willfully ignored.

indioblack wrote: »

These threads really only concern one subject.

Basically "Are you willing to support the soldiers of a foreign country who have violently oppressed Irish people in the north of Ireland; or not?"

Sunny Disposition

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Yes, absolutely the main reason I would not support the Poppy Day appeal is the role the British army has had in Ireland. I would not want one cent to be given to anyone who was part of an army that has occupied this country (and still does).

However, that is not to say that I don't have other objections, such as their recent role in Iraq. I don't see that these are mutually exclusive objections.



It is those in favour of supporting the appeal that continue to argue that the poppy commemorates the Irish people who dies in the two world wars. The fact that money raised via this appeal goes directly to soldiers who would have been involved in constant and long-term aggression and oppression of Irish people seems to be willfully ignored.



Basically "Are you willing to support the soldiers of a foreign country who have violently oppressed Irish people in the north of Ireland; or not?"

The argument about whether they violently oppressed Ireland in living memory is an unnecessarily divisive one.

I think any fair minded person would agree that the people who deliberately murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday shouldn't be supported financially by Irish donations to the Poppy Appeal is something everyone can agree on though.

lawred2

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The argument about whether they violently oppressed Ireland in living memory is an unnecessarily divisive one.

I think any fair minded person would agree that the people who deliberately murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday shouldn't be supported financially by Irish donations to the Poppy Appeal is something everyone can agree on though.

well luckily when you buy a poppy you are given the checklist of conflicts to check off that you are ok with. Makes sure that your donation is ringfenced.

It's important that they provide that facility or else you'd just be contributing to a large pool of murderous activity. Some of which you mightn't even approve of.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The argument about whether they violently oppressed Ireland in living memory is an unnecessarily divisive one.

I think any fair minded person would agree that the people who deliberately murdered civilians on Bloody Sunday shouldn't be supported financially by Irish donations to the Poppy Appeal is something everyone can agree on though.

This goes to the heart of the matter.

It doesn't matter whether a person wants money to go to those who served in the north or not, they have no say in where the money goes and therefore are funding those responsible for many cases of direct and indirect murder in the north.