Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Water John

That dinner will be held on the third floor. One wonders if after her speech TM will leave via the door or the window. If she thought the burning she got a few weeks ago was bad, unless she brings fresh thinking ( unlikely) to the dinner, she'll get an earful.
I'd say there's a fair chance of the EU heads putting a temprory halt on discussions.

An Ciarraioch

And a full Tusk statement follows:

http://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1052201396315901954

lawred2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

And a full Tusk statement follows:

http://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1052201396315901954

the responses make for grim reading

Hurrache

lawred2 wrote: »

the responses make for grim reading

This from a guy who lives in Canada, and thinks it's the EU that's in trouble.

https://twitter.com/PhilTabor8/status/1052202268152479744

Kermit.de.frog

Tusk confirms there that May will be asked for solid proposal tomorrow.

Barnier today said said needs backstop to avoid border in ALL circumstances.

Ergo there won't be a summit agreed tomorrow for November.

trellheim

SNIP.

No more name calling please.

McMurphy

Asmooh wrote: »

If NI becomes IRE I expect a new troubles and if not there will be enough people that don't want their monthly bills increasing by 1000%

We don't have an RHI scheme in place here.

briany

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tusk confirms there that May will be asked for solid proposal tomorrow.

Barnier today said said needs backstop to avoid border in ALL circumstances.

Ergo there won't be a summit agreed tomorrow for November.

So 'End Game', then?

listermint

Hurrache wrote: »

This from a guy who lives in Canada, and thinks it's the EU that's in trouble.

https://twitter.com/PhilTabor8/status/1052202268152479744

These are not real people. They are quite literally machine learning.

Do people honestly thing the cyber warfare has gone away?

In fact its increasing, they are pressing home decisiveness to make it appear that the minority of brexiteers are a majority and a loud one. There isnt real people calling for these en masse, replying to any brexit related tweet within minutes of it going up. Real life doesnt work that way.

zapitastas

Asmooh wrote: »

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

The only upside of a hard border will be the movement of people that have been ambivalent towards unification toward that position. Is thoroughly ironic that the stroke that the British pulled in dividing the country might come back almost 100 years later and destroy the last vestiges of their empire and indeed their country. You could forgive David lloyd George for not for predicting that one

charlie14

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I can see Coveney or Varadkar having a word with Howlin after that.

Probably best to say that stuff in private to them rather than be a 'useful idiot' for British counter briefings in Europe.

You may be correct on it just being Britain stirring the pot, but from ambassador O`Neill`s statement, (which I imagine he would not have made before clearing with the government), I got the felling there may just be more too it than that.

Hopefully not.

trellheim

French FO keeping quiet and German FO starting to look at their watch and tap the foot. ( thanks for coming to my Ted talk )

An Claidheamh

Asmooh wrote: »

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

Any chance, the Brits might pay rent in Ireland or actually be British in ..... Britain?

They can even apply for British passports.

trellheim

A "word" being had with Howlin publicly on twitter by Coveney and a couple of high profile Brexit journos at the moment. Some humour to lighten the day.

An Claidheamh

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone see the Tory pup trying to educate Neale Richmond on BBC earlier?

He made reference that they made it illegal to put any sort of border in the Irish sea at Westminister.

Richmond should have told him we don't negotiate on the basis of backbenchers putting down ammendments during negotiations on what is legal and what is not.

Other than that Richmond handled it well.

The ignorance from some of these guys is eyewatering. The tory was making references to 'Secetaries of State for Ireland'.

They haven't got a clue.

I'd feel sorry for Richmond if it wasn't for the likes of him enabling British nationalists over the last few decades by blaming everything on Sinn Féin.

Anyone pointing out these types across the water were deemed enemies of the state by the Irish establishment or provo sympathisers.

These <SNIP. No name calling please> are not our "friends", they do not like us, they are not to be trusted.

An Ciarraioch

trellheim wrote: »

A "word" being had with Howlin publicly on twitter by Coveney and a couple of high profile Brexit journos at the moment. Some humour to lighten the day.

Interesting to read Coveney's latest statement - negotiating teams would signal "if and when" another summit would be held.

An Claidheamh

Mc Love wrote: »

And the fact that NI can apply for an Irish passport

What does any of what you two were rambling about mean?

Are you on the right forum?

An Claidheamh

Asmooh wrote: »

As far as I remember you pay taxes in the country you are working, so if you work in the Republic you would pay Irish taxes, In NI you would pay UK taxes.

I don't think and hope UK will ever give up NI.
Only way would be to make NI its own country but never going to be part of the Republic.

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth.

Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

I'm pretty sure all of that is false, and that's aside from the fact ni is a failing welfare state.

And the UK don't decide if they're "giving it up", it will be a referendum.

They can't be allowed just cut and run, they have responsibilities to the mess they caused there.

LeinsterDub

trellheim wrote: »

A "word" being had with Howlin publicly on twitter by Coveney and a couple of high profile Brexit journos at the moment. Some humour to lighten the day.

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1052210549738663938

AKA shut up Brendan you haven't a clue

An Claidheamh

badtoro wrote: »

Electricity.

Badtoro, the North may not have electricity the way things are going 😂

Also, why is it that people try to imply that unionists in particular have a problem with working and paying taxes, and creating jobs.

This is the problem with generational welfarism, people seem to become what they continuously do, (or don't do!)

catrionanic

Asmooh wrote: »

I did... I lived in the republic, worked in the republic etc..

Moved up north and guess what? more money left by the end of the month and i even have 2 cars.. while in the north I could hardly afford one car.

In the republic i rented a room... in the North I got a house for the same amount of money.

Myself and my husband both doubled our salaries in the south as compared to what we were earning in the north.

The average wage figures for full-time workers in the north vs the south would support my version of events as opposed to your own!

LuckyLloyd

Asmooh wrote: »

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

I am personally looking forward to the myriad of crazy salt covered opinions we are due to receive over the coming weeks and months as this moves to a conclusion.

Asmooh

catrionanic wrote: »

Asmooh wrote: »

I did... I lived in the republic, worked in the republic etc..

Moved up north and guess what? more money left by the end of the month and i even have 2 cars.. while in the north I could hardly afford one car.

In the republic i rented a room... in the North I got a house for the same amount of money.

Myself and my husband both doubled our salaries in the south as compared to what we were earning in the north.

The average wage figures for full-time workers in the north vs the south would support my version of events as opposed to your own!

Wages are higher but also costs.
Like I said for the price of a room I had an house in Belfast

Asmooh

And I got a cheap room. Some months electricity was 300 EUR... That's the same I paid in Belfast in a year!

L1011

Fairly certain electricity is clearly dearer in NI than ROI.

joe40

Considering how negatively a no deal brexit would affect ireland would it be worth allowing some border controls to ensure a deal.
I'm a cross border worker rep to north, so would be personally affected.
But I'm also severly affected by the collapse in sterling which is essentially a massive paycut.
An exchange rate of about 1.30 euro to 1 pound is needed to keep prices and wages comparable

First Up

Asmooh wrote: »

Wages are higher but also costs.
Like I said for the price of a room I had an house in Belfast

The Northern Irish economy is subsidised to the tune of about £9 billion (sterling) a year by Westminster and £3.5 billion a year by the EU. That's about 30% of GDP.

Imreoir2

Asmooh wrote: »

I don't think and hope UK will ever give up NI.
Only way would be to make NI its own country but never going to be part of the Republic.

The UK gave up on having a say on NI remaining in the UK back in 1998. The GFA stipulates that should it ever seem likely that a majority would vote in favour of Unification, then a referendum must be held and should 50% +1 vote in favour of Unification, then NI leaves the UK and becomes part of a United Ireland.

It might never happen, but it certainly could happen, and the way things are going, I would not be surprised if it did happen.

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth.

Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

Being somewhat different is no reason that you can't be part of the same country. NI is very different to Chelsea but both are currently in the UK.

Hurrache

So proposed backstop not acceptable, but nor do they have mechanism or solution to resolve it.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1052225782171541505

murphaph

First Up wrote: »

The Northern Irish economy is subsidised to the tune of about £9 billion (sterling) a year by Westminster and £3.5 billion a year by the EU. That's about 30% of GDP.

Exactly and post hard Brexit the money simply won't be there to maintain those levels of subsidy.

Captain Obvious

joe40 wrote: »

Considering how negatively a no deal brexit would affect ireland would it be worth allowing some border controls to ensure a deal.
I'm a cross border worker rep to north, so would be personally affected.
But I'm also severly affected by the collapse in sterling which is essentially a massive paycut.
An exchange rate of about 1.30 euro to 1 pound is needed to keep prices and wages comparable

I think you are kind of ignoring the significance of a hard border. I'm old enough to remember being taken from a car at gun point as a boy with my family for a search. And I'd imagine that's a fairly tame memory in comparison to many. In addition to that, I think it would be political suicide to be the party that agrees to partition the country again.

Kermit.de.frog

Very important point. Macron already said he alone would not attend any November summit without decisive progress by tomorrow.

It is VERY possible EU leaders could call a no deal summit tomorrow for November as the effect would be to terrify British politicians and businesses in to getting real.

First Up

murphaph wrote: »

Exactly and post hard Brexit the money simply won't be there to maintain those levels of subsidy.

Well the EU's bit will disappear for sure. We'll find out how deeply the UK feels about it.

joe40

Captain Obvious wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Considering how negatively a no deal brexit would affect ireland would it be worth allowing some border controls to ensure a deal.
I'm a cross border worker rep to north, so would be personally affected.
But I'm also severly affected by the collapse in sterling which is essentially a massive paycut.
An exchange rate of about 1.30 euro to 1 pound is needed to keep prices and wages comparable

I think you are kind of ignoring the significance of a hard border. I'm old enough to remember being taken from a car at gun point as a boy with my family for a search. And I'd imagine that's a fairly tame memory in comparison to many. In addition to that, I think it would be political suicide to be the party that agrees to partition the country again.

I remember those days only too well. I was a teenager during the 80s. Any border infrastructure would be a disaster, but so would a no deal brexit. I just wonder have the irish government secretly countenanced the idea. I can imagine other EU countries secretly thinking that.
I just don't think there would be a return to the violence of before on the same scale but it would definitely flare up, but the numbers taking part would be small.

Asmooh

joe40 wrote: »

Captain Obvious wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Considering how negatively a no deal brexit would affect ireland would it be worth allowing some border controls to ensure a deal.
I'm a cross border worker rep to north, so would be personally affected.
But I'm also severly affected by the collapse in sterling which is essentially a massive paycut.
An exchange rate of about 1.30 euro to 1 pound is needed to keep prices and wages comparable

I think you are kind of ignoring the significance of a hard border. I'm old enough to remember being taken from a car at gun point as a boy with my family for a search. And I'd imagine that's a fairly tame memory in comparison to many. In addition to that, I think it would be political suicide to be the party that agrees to partition the country again.

I remember those days only too well. I was a teenager during the 80s. Any border infrastructure would be a disaster, but so would a no deal brexit. I just wonder have the irish government secretly countenanced the idea. I can imagine other EU countries secretly thinking that.
I just don't think there would be a return to the violence of before on the same scale but it would definitely flare up, but the numbers taking part would be small.

Sure? Think the IRA will target everyone and everything non Irish.
UK could still charge Ireland for using UK outlets, rhd cars, UK style busses etc

joe40

In terms of northern Ireland economy, it is totally false. The % working in the public sector is ridiculously high compared with private sector.
Money was thrown at the province during the troubles. Revolution and poverty/unemployment go hand in hand.
That is slowly but significantly drying up. I work in education for over 20 years and the money available is a lot less, including salaries.
Without British support/handouts there would be a strong economic argument for a united Ireland. It is amazing how many even northern nationalists don't seem to realise that

Niska

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We don't have an RHI scheme in place here.

We will - ssrh (Support Scheme Renewable Heat)

https://www.seai.ie/sustainable-solutions/support-scheme-renewable-/

prawnsambo

Asmooh wrote: »

Sure? Think the idea will target everyone and everything non Irish.
UK could still charge Ireland for using UK outlets, rhd cars, UK style busses etc

Not sure what you mean here?


RHD cars and buses aren't all manufactured in Britain. Afaik, our buses come from the Netherlands.

LuckyLloyd

joe40 wrote: »

Considering how negatively a no deal brexit would affect ireland would it be worth allowing some border controls to ensure a deal.
I'm a cross border worker rep to north, so would be personally affected.
But I'm also severly affected by the collapse in sterling which is essentially a massive paycut.
An exchange rate of about 1.30 euro to 1 pound is needed to keep prices and wages comparable

Unfortunately it is due to fall a lot further as I don't think markets have properly countenanced a no deal scenario. That has a unique affect on those living and working across the jurisdictions, but it obviously cannot be a driving concern / priority of the EU in negotiations.

Leroy42

So let me see if I have this correct.

Up to 9 members of the cabinet met last night. Many have given very qualified support to the PM.
Yesterday, there was hardly any member of the HoC that stood up with TM strategy.

Today there is a meeting whereby they all agree (the cabinet) that the deal being offered by the EU is unacceptable, but have no ideas how or what to offer in return.
Despite TM being responsible for leading them to the position, they all are 100% behind her (today) and look forward to getting a deal because TM has a belief that they can.

Now, didn't TM say in her speech after the disaster of Salzburg that the EU needed to tell her what they didn't like about chequers (anyone else notice that word is never used anymore?) and make a counter offer. And the EU have done just that, to which TM has rejected it.

They have tied themselves in so many knots that they haven't a clue what they want.

prawnsambo

Yeah. Chequers is a dead parrot.

LuckyLloyd

They know exactly what they want - access to all the benefits of the SM and CU with none of the obligations or financial inputs. That's what they always wanted. It has *never* been on offer, can never be on offer and everything that has flowed since has been internal political nonsense due to a fundamental lack of acceptance.

Leroy42

So, originally we had the Lanchaster speech with it red lines and no NI border.

Then we had the two options, Max Fac and (jeez I can't even remember what they called the other one).

Then, they ditched both of them and came up with Chequers.

Now they have ditched chequers and haven't come up with any new plan but can't accept the EU one.

All within the space of 18 months. And TM gets offended when she thinks other people don't respect her?

Capt'n Midnight

prawnsambo wrote: »

Asmooh wrote: »

Sure? Think the idea will target everyone and everything non Irish.
UK could still charge Ireland for using UK outlets, rhd cars, UK style busses etc

Not sure what you mean here?


RHD cars and buses aren't all manufactured in Britain. Afaik, our buses come from the Netherlands.

+1

EU rules say everyone has to offer RHD and LHD so complete non-issue.
Malta is also RHD.

Also these days generic consumer electricals are made in China. It's a long time since the UK was the workshop of the world, something a lot of Brexiteers forget.

prawnsambo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

+1

EU rules say everyone has to offer RHD and LHD so complete non-issue.
Malta is also RHD.

Also these days generic consumer electricals are made in China. It's a long time since the UK was the workshop of the world, something a lot of Brexiteers forget.

Yeah. A lot of what we buy from the UK, we buy for convenience sake. It's closer and quicker to get. But it's not because they have a monopoly.

trellheim

RHD cars and buses aren't all manufactured in Britain. Afaik, our buses come from the Netherlands.

Much of Dublin bus fleet comes from Wright Bus , who are based ironically enough in an estate just outside of Ballymena

Calina

Asmooh wrote: »

And I got a cheap room. Some months electricity was 300 EUR... That's the same I paid in Belfast in a year!

I have no idea how you managed to run up a monthly bill of 300e. I lived in Dublin until 2016 and paid approx 45e a month on a three bed house. Short of running a small factory in there I am not sure I could have run up 300e a month in electricity charges.

prawnsambo

trellheim wrote: »

Much of Dublin bus fleet comes from Wright Bus , who are based ironically enough in an estate just outside of Ballymena

Actually I was wrong, Van Hool who used to make them are in Belgium.

Junkyard Tom

Changes to the Barnett Formula, interesting timing.



twitter.com/DefraGovUK

Junkyard Tom

Asmooh wrote: »

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis

If Britain crashes out of the EU the houses will come in handy for keeping livestock in with the wide-scale return to subsistence farming.