Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

lawred2

Who is the idea of postponing the Irish border gaining traction with?

Bulgaria?

Hurrache

This lad has his finger on the trigger ready to blame Ireland
https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1052168955199217665

Kermit.de.frog

Anyone see the Tory pup trying to educate Neale Richmond on BBC earlier?

He made reference that they made it illegal to put any sort of border in the Irish sea at Westminister.

Richmond should have told him we don't negotiate on the basis of backbenchers putting down ammendments during negotiations on what is legal and what is not.

Other than that Richmond handled it well.

The ignorance from some of these guys is eyewatering. The tory was making references to 'Secetaries of State for Ireland'.

They haven't got a clue.

An Ciarraioch

Barnier speaks out - time for the EU to press pause until London stops wrangling with itself?

http://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1052174256770027521

Hurrache

lawred2 wrote: »

Who is the idea of postponing the Irish border gaining traction with?

Bulgaria?

There's a feeling that such an idea doesn't exist, or at least not at the level at which anyone that matters operates.

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

That seems to have come out of nowhere. A German delegate member, according to this afternoons News at 1, today said that if there's no agreement on the backtop on the border in Ireland, there is no deal. So when someone from Germany says that, I would be sure that's the general thinking.

I couldn't be surprised if the contrary is being put out there by British diplomats, a bit of dark arts.

Baseless and nonsensical. Ireland would just veto the deal.

So the EU going against Ireland would sink the deal anyway.

Leroy42

lawred2 wrote: »

Baseless and nonsensical. Ireland would just veto the deal.

So the EU going against Ireland would sink the deal anyway.

Only if Ireland vetoed it. I think that is the point that Howlin is raising. He is putting it to Leo that he needs to be prepared to stand up for Ireland in what is probably going to be significant pressure over the coming weeks.

But it is all entirely predictable. This is the strategy that the UK have had from the very outset when it was very clear that they had no real power and little options. So the plan seems to have been to drag everything out as long as possible, use the EU's willingness to keep things moving, as a way of bringing pressure to bear on the EU as the final date came closer.

Just as A50 put a gun to the head of the UK, they want to try to use that as a pressure point to the EU.

EdgeCase

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if this is part of the UK’s strategy. They’re very quick to resort to PR, spin and spreading misinformation. I’m not saying that as some kind of conspiracy theory. They genuinely do use tactics like that to try and weaken the solidarity they’re facing.

All you have to do is keep sowing semi credible information and hoping it gets parroted and picked up, which it inevitably does.

LuckyLloyd

As I said on Sunday, it appears things are moving much faster than they are. Nothing of any consequence has changed since the weekend. There is lots of noise, but the principles on either side are not currently talking to each other.

Zubeneschamali

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Barnier speaks out

We are going to take the time... to find this comprehensive deal... in the weeks to come.

So, nothing ready for October, cancel the November summit, meet maybe in December?

Sam Russell

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We are going to take the time... to find this comprehensive deal... in the weeks to come.

So, nothing ready for October, cancel the November summit, meet maybe in December?

The EU have cancelled the publication of the outline of the future trade agreement paper.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/HMcEntee/status/1052182398950092801

In fairness Coveney was forceful this morning that the British govt made commitments in writing in December that have to be honored.

The Irish ambassador to UK also said this and that UK govt was trying to renege on it's commitments.

Mc Love

So if there's no WA and no time limit to the backstop, does that mean the UK leaves and a hard border has to be put in place?

charlie14

Mc Love wrote: »

So if there's no WA and no time limit to the backstop, does that mean the UK leaves and a hard border has to be put in place?

No deal and I cannot see the possibility of anything but. The EU would insist on one for the protection of the SM and the CU I imagine.

Leroy42

Yes, a crash out deal. The EU is trying to use its leverage to avoid a hard border in NI. They could have simply jettisoned that position and left Ireland to hang, to secure a deal, but have opted to stand behind international agreements (GFA) and a member state.

If it ends up with No Deal, then the fault lies completely with the UK. TM has stated repeatedly, that she will not deliver a hard border in NI. The EU has stated that they are willing to allow the UK to leave (which means borders) yet maintain their stance of no NI border in order to preserve the GFA and the progress made in the last 20 years.

The UK have decided that the promise to avoid a border is not really a promise, but more a hope and they aren't really that bothered wither way.

Asmooh

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

charlie14

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/HMcEntee/status/1052182398950092801

In fairness Coveney was forceful this morning that the British govt made commitments in writing in December that have to be honored.

The Irish ambassador to UK also said this and that UK govt was trying to renege on it's commitments.

Found that statement from O`Neill a bit strange. Made me wonder if it had anything to do with him perhaps hearing some muttering in diplomatic circles similar to what Howlin was claiming.

Mc Love

Asmooh wrote: »

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

And the fact that NI can apply for an Irish passport

Imreoir2

I love how Brexiteers like to keep saying "nothing is agreed untill everything is agreed". Some of them even like to point out that it was the EU that specified this.

They seem to think this means that they are free to break any commitments they have made during the negiotiations, this is not true of course. The meaning of "nothing is agreed untill everything is agreed" is that the UK gets nothing untill they agree to everything.

Sam Russell

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I love how Brexiteers like to keep saying "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". Some of them even like to point out that it was the EU that specified this.

They seem to think this means that they are free to break any commitments they have made during the negotiations, this is not true of course. The meaning of "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" is that the UK gets nothing untill they agree to everything.

I think Barnier pointed a long time ago, that once a topic has been agreed, it will not be revisited. Once the text goes green, that that is it. After that, if there is a problem, it is as agreed or nothing.

Asmooh

Mc Love wrote: »

And the fact that NI can apply for an Irish passport

Yes, doesn't make any sense at all.

Imreoir2

Asmooh wrote: »

I hope they make a wall between northern ireland and the republic.
then revoke all rights for Irish people including right to speak irish.

Nothing wrong with being Irish but be Irish in the republic, mainly because most people are bitching about the british.. yet they wouldn't mind using UK benefits.

Irish people in NI pay taxes, why would they not have access to the welfare system there?

As for revoking all rights for Irish people in NI, that would be a breach of international law. Brexiteers are bad, but I don't think even they are bad enough to deny an entire community their rights. This would only serve to force a conflict to re-emerge in Northern Ireland and would probably be the end of NI remaing part of the UK.

Kermit.de.frog

charlie14 wrote: »

Found that statement from O`Neill a bit strange. Made me wonder if it had anything to do with him perhaps hearing some muttering in diplomatic circles similar to what Howlin was claiming.

I can see Coveney or Varadkar having a word with Howlin after that.

Probably best to say that stuff in private to them rather than be a 'useful idiot' for British counter briefings in Europe.

Dymo

Can someone explain why this can't be dragged on in theory until next February. If the deal is 95% inplace why can't the UK hold off for the last 5% in February then a month to finalise things in European countries and the same in the UK parliament. There is never going to be a no deal decided once there is days on the clock.

lawred2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Irish people in NI pay taxes, why would they not have access to the welfare system there?

As for revoking all rights for Irish people in NI, that would be a breach of international law. Brexiteers are bad, but I don't think even they are bad enough to deny an entire community their rights. This would only serve to force a conflict to re-emerge in Northern Ireland and would probably be the end of NI remaing part of the UK.

Tories had no truck with this in the past

Asmooh

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Irish people in NI pay taxes, why would they not have access to the welfare system there?

As for revoking all rights for Irish people in NI, that would be a breach of international law. Brexiteers are bad, but I don't think even they are bad enough to deny an entire community their rights. This would only serve to force a conflict to re-emerge in Northern Ireland and would probably be the end of NI remaing part of the UK.

As far as I remember you pay taxes in the country you are working, so if you work in the Republic you would pay Irish taxes, In NI you would pay UK taxes.

I don't think and hope UK will ever give up NI.
Only way would be to make NI its own country but never going to be part of the Republic.

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth.

Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

Zubeneschamali

Mc Love wrote: »

So if there's no WA and no time limit to the backstop, does that mean the UK leaves and a hard border has to be put in place?

I'd say we'll get away without it for the week or so until the food runs out in the UK shops and they come back to the table.

Spook_ie

Calina wrote: »

. But the negotiations have not been done on an all UK basis.

Surely they have if they don't want NI to be treated as a separate CU/SM from the rest of the UK?

Kermit.de.frog

Asmooh wrote: »

As far as I remember you pay taxes in the country you are working, so if you work in the Republic you would pay Irish taxes, In NI you would pay UK taxes.

I don't think and hope UK will ever give up NI.
Only way would be to make NI its own country but never going to be part of the Republic.

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth.

Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

If the north was it's own country it would be bankrupt 10 times over. It also has the worst infrastructure on the island and in the UK.

Zubeneschamali

Asmooh wrote: »

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth. Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

4/10. Must troll harder.

Mc Love

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd say we'll get away without it for the week or so until the food runs out in the UK shops and they come back to the table.

and the UK has to accept the Euro to get back in?

Seth Brundle

Mc Love wrote: »

And the fact that NI can apply for an Irish passport

Not just NI - apparently anyone in the UK can get an Irish passport (and then come over to Dublin and buy a pint using sterling)!

MrMusician18

Asmooh wrote: »

As far as I remember you pay taxes in the country you are working, so if you work in the Republic you would pay Irish taxes, In NI you would pay UK taxes.

I don't think and hope UK will ever give up NI.
Only way would be to make NI its own country but never going to be part of the Republic.

If you compare NI with IRE they are totally different.. we don't have housing crisis, we don't have high road taxes, we don't have houses that are way too high in price that they are actually worth.

Our Healthcare is a lot better etc..

The UK has agreed to walk away from NI once the majority there want it. It claims to have no strategic interest in staying there.

Although we are now seeing the value of UK promises and agreements again...

Asmooh

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The UK has agreed to walk away from NI once the majority there want it. It claims to have no strategic interest in staying there.

Although we are now seeing the value of UK promises and agreements again...

If NI becomes IRE I expect a new troubles and if not there will be enough people that don't want their monthly bills increasing by 1000%

Seth Brundle

Asmooh wrote: »

If NI becomes IRE I expect a new troubles and if not there will be enough people that don't want their monthly bills increasing by 1000%

What monthly bills will increase by 1000%?

Hurrache

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What monthly bills will increase by 1000%?

Balaclava dry cleaning, glass bottle washing and petrol expenses?

Zubeneschamali

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What monthly bills will increase by 1000%?

Flegs are terrible expensive down here.

badtoro

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Asmooh wrote: »

If NI becomes IRE I expect a new troubles and if not there will be enough people that don't want their monthly bills increasing by 1000%

What monthly bills will increase by 1000%?

Electricity.

ancapailldorcha

Hurrache wrote: »

Balaclava dry cleaning, glass bottle washing and petrol expenses?

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Flegs are terrible expensive down here.

Enough of the nonsense one-liners please.

Asmooh

Compare housing prices for example IRE vs NI...
Compare cars
Compare Electronics
Compare taxes
Compare electricity
And much more

Strazdas

Dymo wrote: »

Can someone explain why this can't be dragged on in theory until next February. If the deal is 95% inplace why can't the UK hold off for the last 5% in February then a month to finalise things in European countries and the same in the UK parliament. There is never going to be a no deal decided once there is days on the clock.

Four to six weeks to ratify such a huge change in the eU would be way too short. Even the slightest hold up in ratification would mean the UK wouldn't legally be able to leave on March 31.

catrionanic

Asmooh wrote: »

Compare housing prices for example IRE vs NI...
Compare cars
Compare Electronics
Compare taxes
Compare electricity
And much more

Compare earnings.

Asmooh

catrionanic wrote: »

Compare earnings.

I did... I lived in the republic, worked in the republic etc..

Moved up north and guess what? more money left by the end of the month and i even have 2 cars.. while in the north I could hardly afford one car.

In the republic i rented a room... in the North I got a house for the same amount of money.

Hurrache

The increased in expenses, for the state, will obviously come with taking the 6 counties into our budget. Isn't NI subsidised?

MrMusician18

Asmooh wrote: »

Compare housing prices for example IRE vs NI...
Compare cars
Compare Electronics
Compare taxes
Compare electricity
And much more

1000% you said, even if things are more expensive in Ireland, that are not ten times as much as you claim, individually or cumulatively

You need to provide evidence for your daft claim.

Kermit.de.frog

catrionanic wrote: »

Compare earnings.

Ooooh nailed!

Donald Tusk has just said Theresa Mays needs to come up with "new facts" to address border. Also says not optimistic on a deal.

An Ciarraioch

Tusk isn't exactly optimistic:

http://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1052195003777212416

MrMusician18

Hurrache wrote: »

The increased in expenses, for the state, will obviously come with taking the 6 counties into our budget. Isn't NI subsidised?

Yes, heavily.

The UK attempted to buy peace, hence the gigantic public sector.

Kermit.de.frog

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Tusk isn't exactly optimistic:

https://mobile.twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1052195003777212416

Just a tip.

If you want to embed tweets just take out mobile in the url.

Zubeneschamali

Strazdas wrote: »

Four to six weeks to ratify such a huge change in the eU would be way too short. Even the slightest hold up in ratification would mean the UK wouldn't legally be able to leave on March 31.

Not so - the UK is out on the 29th no matter what happens, unless they ask for, and get agreement from all 27, an Article 50 extension, which would be as hard as the WA.

The slightest delay would mean they go out hard with no transition deal, no trade agreements, nothing on flights, visas, customs...