Affordability of Property and Irish Wages/Salaries

Cyrus

Debtocracy wrote: »

To contrast, I’ve known of few suburbs of cities in the West of the country where the housing estates are made up of a lot of young professionals. Yet house prices seem very fair. The rich just aren’t as interested in these places so when it’s left to professional couples competing between themselves, houses tend to be reasonably priced.

It’s driven by the salaries on offer generally . Also most of my friends are , like me, from outside Dublin but settled here during and after college. At various times people have either considered moving home or have done it, but no one wants to live in an estate. They will do it in Dublin but if moving home they want a detached new build on a big site so you don’t have the same demand for estates outside of Dublin

Bob24

LirW wrote: »

Many people I personally know can't really afford buying in Dublin unless they'd move to really crappy areas (proper anti-social havens)

And btw that is a serious issue in terms of housing. Many areas in the city are avoided by buyers simply because crime or anti-social behaviour is too high.

Pretty much everyone has to make compromises when it comes buying property, but feeling unsafe or being subject to antisocial behaviour should *never* have to be one of them, regardless of where people stand in the income distribution. Stopping to tolerate that certain areas involve that type of safety conpromise is something the state (and society) should do and which would open new options for some buyer.

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

And btw that is a serious issue in terms of housing. Many areas in the city are avoided by buyers simply because crime or anti-social behaviour is too high.

Pretty much everyone has to make compromises when it comes buying property, but feeling unsafe or being subject to antisocial behaviour should *never* have to be one of them, regardless of where people stand in the income distribution. Stopping to tolerate that certain area involve that type of safety conpromise is something the state (and society) should do and which would open now options for some buyer.

Is this not how areas get gentrified ? Places like Brixton in London ?

Samuel T. Cogley

Cyrus wrote: »

Is this not how areas get gentrified ? Places like Brixton in London ?

Moving into the peripheries. I'm not sure you're going to gentrify Darndale by landing a few people who read the Sunday Times wine suplement in the middle of it :pac:

Cyrus

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Moving into the peripheries. I'm not sure you're going to gentrify Darndale by landing a few people who read the Sunday Times wine suplement in the middle of it :pac:

I was always curious why that never worked here because it has happened in London , can’t recall anywhere in Dublin where it’s really happened

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

Is this not how areas get gentrified ? Places like Brixton in London ?

I’m not familiar with that area TBH, but safety should be be a given everywhere as opposed to an influencing factor for property prices in some areas.

I am actually more familiar with Beijing than London, and over there I’ve never came a cross an area which felt unsafe. You’ll find areas where houses don’t look great and people look poor, as well as areas which look ultra modern and wealthy, but they all feel safe (as far as crime is concerned, the driving style of some motorists is another story and is a problem everywhere although improving compared to my first visit there 10 years ago! :-)).

Samuel T. Cogley

Cyrus wrote: »

I was always curious why that never worked here because it has happened in London , can’t recall anywhere in Dublin where it’s really happened

Stoneybatter
Kilbarrack
Raheny
Pockets of D8 inc. Rialto (sort of)

East wall


Happened in plenty of places to be fair.


Now were not at millionaires row in these places but they've certainly become nice working class places to live.

LirW

Cyrus wrote: »

Is this not how areas get gentrified ? Places like Brixton in London ?

Maybe it has to do with how certain areas are layouted. If you look at Southwest Finglas, it's a bunch of estates on top of each other with no commercial space; gentrification often starts with artists who look for cheap spaces to work/live with often needs a lot of space, then the young people follow, open businesses and settle there.
Maybe since these places are so enclosed and nothing but rows and rows of houses makes it difficult to break it up.

Cyrus

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Stoneybatter
Kilbarrack
Raheny
Pockets of D8 inc. Rialto (sort of)

East wall


Happened in plenty of places to be fair.


Now were not at millionaires row in these places but they've certainly become nice working class places to live.

Were they as rough as Brixton was tho? It was literally no go

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

I’m not familiar with that area TBH, but safety should be be a given everywhere as opposed to an influencing factor for property prices in some areas.

I am actually more familiar with Beijing than London, and over there I’ve never came a cross and area which felt unsafe. You’ll find areas where houses look crap and people look poor as well as areas which look ultra modern and wealthy, but they all feel safe (as far as crime is concerned, the driving style of some motorists is another story and is a problem everywhere! :-)).

What’s that down to? Real repricussions for crime and anti social behaviour?

Samuel T. Cogley

Cyrus wrote: »

Were they as rough as Brixton was tho? It was literally no go

Stoneybatter was a red light district. The rest were just Dublin rough. We seem to have this odd thing of not being really, really rough and not going really, really posh. I expect that's a factor of our comparatively moderate house prices.

Cyrus

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Stoneybatter was a red light district. The rest were just Dublin rough. We seem to have this odd thing of not being really, really rough and not going really, really posh. I expect that's a factor of our comparatively moderate house prices.

Moderate house prices that comment should go down well

Samuel T. Cogley

Cyrus wrote: »

Moderate house prices that comment should go down well

I used italics just in case! :pac:

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

What’s that down to? Real repricussions for crime and anti social behaviour?

I want to say partly due to a less individualistic model of society whereby the balance between individual rights and social cohesion is much closer to the later than in western societies.

But if I’m honest while the above is very true in Japan or Korea (also super safe), in China the fear of consequences probably also plays a role as if you get caught the police/governement likely won’t go soft on you.

Anyway, won’t drift further off topic I guess :-)

wersal gummage

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Stoneybatter was a red light district. The rest were just Dublin rough. We seem to have this odd thing of not being really, really rough and not going really, really posh. I expect that's a factor of our comparatively moderate house prices.

I don't think Raheny was ever a rough area? Not in the 30 years or so I've known it.

Kilbarick isn't exactly gentrified either is it? It's just not completely unsafe anymore

Samuel T. Cogley

wersal gummage wrote: »

I don't think Raheny was ever a rough area? Not in the 30 years or so I've known it.

Kilbarick isn't exactly gentrified either is it? It's just not completely unsafe anymore

We'll have to get iinto the Parish boundaries going back to 1066 to see when it was under the barony of Coolock or some such nonsence but sufice it to say areas I and others, but not everyone, would consider Raheny have got better.

It really depends what you consider gentrification in relation to Kilbarrack. It's now largely privatly owned with some of the residents with houshold incomes in excess of 100K some not. Kilbarrack has been safe for years at this point.

Gentrification is an ongoing process.

Samuel T. Cogley

Love the way we've turned this thread into a discussion about proerty again :pac:

L1011

wersal gummage wrote: »

I don't think Raheny was ever a rough area? Not in the 30 years or so I've known it.

Kilbarick isn't exactly gentrified either is it? It's just not completely unsafe anymore

Raheny, when built, was dodgy. It hasn't been for some time. Plenty of 1930s-50s council areas are now gentrified out to being quite posh.

Had there been sustained building of social housing in smaller developments spread out absolutely everywhere there would be no possibility of perception of social housing areas as bad. But the last sustained social housing construction we had was under the FF-Labour and Rainbow governments from 92-97 and much of what was built before was badly planned and badly delivered.

Geuze

tom1ie wrote: »

My argument is that cb rules are being ignored. I know plenty of couples on 40k plus 40k with kids who have been offered mortgages off 400k. That’s against the cb rules. People are getting in over there heads with debt especially when interest rate rises are factored in.

Are you sure?

On one income of 60k approx, with 2 kids, I was offered 178k-200k by three banks, this year.

Geuze

Lumen wrote: »

It really doesn't matter how many people you know on salary of whatever, what matters in a housing market is actual statistics.

AAM had some good mortgage stats, hold on I'll look for them.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/average-income-for-a-ftb-is-%E2%82%AC73k-70-are-joint-applicants.209869/#post-1585531

LirW

Geuze wrote: »

Are you sure?

On one income of 60k approx, with 2 kids, I was offered 178k-200k by three banks, this year.

Simples, go work for a big 4 and you'd get the key for a house in Donnybrook instead of mortgage approval since you're on quadrillion money :pac:

Bluefoam

Don't know why I was subscribed to the wanker thread... "Unfollow"

Lumen

Geuze wrote: »

AAM had some good mortgage stats, hold on I'll look for them.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/average-income-for-a-ftb-is-%E2%82%AC73k-70-are-joint-applicants.209869/#post-1585531

Good find. Quite revealing.

Suggests that average mortgages are small because more expensive properties are funded by significant equity, more so with trader uppers who are funding 500k properties with equity they've presumably built up by paying off their previous credit.

The few FTBers availing of LTI exemptions are doing so by bringing more cash.

Which, dare I say it, is exactly what a well functioning mortgage market looks like, apart from the low volumes and relatively high (but not extreme) incomes.

But that doesn't help those struggling to pay their rent.

LuckyLloyd

TimeToShine wrote: »

I disagree, firstly renting for life is a far more viable option in other large European cities so buying isn't an integral part of the life equation like it is for us. Secondly if you take a top earning 30 year old couple in Brussels or Berlin they will be raking in comparatively more than enough to buy a house in a very decent part of city, the fact that their public transport system is significantly better than ours is a point against us rather than in their favour since we seem to be the only big city who struggle with it. Even a mediocre earning couple can get something that is within 30 mins of work through public transport.in Madrid, Frankfurt, etc. In New York you can work in Manhattan and buy a house for $600k in the Bronx which is a 30 minute commute away.

IMO there is nothing to defend here. Why should top talent stay in Ireland when in all likelihood they'll have to settle for a house in Navan and spend two hours a day commuting for the rest of their lives? And where does that leave the regular professionals? Something doesn't add up.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. So many of us know within our bones that the options / choices / incentives are wrong. We know we are getting a raw deal, and that it’s worse than the one offered to our parents in many cases. Those that defend it know it’s a bad deal too - but it is in their interests for the status quo to be maintained.

fret_wimp2

Re: genteified areas, Broombridge defo falls into that category . At one point the train didn't even want to stop there. Horses on the platform etc. It's a decent area now, I'd have no problem walking about it at any hour.

It's not posh in any respect, but it's also not a dump, very middle class (if such a thing exists) at this point.
Lots of decent houses, well kept with nice tidy gardens and relatively new cars out front.

Train station is like any other now and the luas stop never sees any trouble.

I assume all that would mean gentrification.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You’ve hit the nail on the head. So many of us know within our bones that the options / choices / incentives are wrong. We know we are getting a raw deal, and that it’s worse than the one offered to our parents in many cases. Those that defend it know it’s a bad deal too - but it is in their interests for the status quo to be maintained.

Every generation gets a raw deal, it's always something. Low wages, recession and double digit interest in the 80s was a nightmare my parents worked through.

This generation its different problems.
Its good to look back and assess where we are and where we need to go, but the constant "they had it better, woe is me" message all over boards is getting monotonous.

Yea the housing crisis sucks. It's different set of problems people have to overcome as best they can.

40 years from now it will be something totally new causing grief. And they will have to get over it too and think we had it comparatively easy.

jive

It’s a pity there were no incentives / less penal rules around other types of investments e.g. equities.

Part of the problem is that Irish people are extremely keen to own property as there are no other investments that are really worth it in the current system. So any people in 20s/30s earning good money will be building up their cash reserve and will eventually get to a tipping point where they need to invest it into something and the only answer to ‘what’ at the moment is property.

I saw RSUs mentioned on this thread, there’s very few people that these are worth a lot of money to because they are taxed to the hilt...especially at the level people are going into companies in during their 20s. I’m sure there’s some right place at the right time folks but certainly not enough to contribute in any great way to the problem we clearly have.

Wanderer78

fret_wimp2 wrote:

40 years from now it will be something totally new causing grief. And they will have to get over it too and think we had it comparatively easy.

Growing inequality is a major problem though, and it's not stopping, it has the potential to severally disrupt the status quo, destabilising our societies in many ways, yes every generation has its difficulties, but why not try minimise these destabilising factors now, possibly preventing dangers future events.

Cyrus

Bluefoam wrote: »

Don't know why I was subscribed to the wanker thread... "Unfollow"

Bye now

Bitterness and self pity -> way

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

Were they as rough as Brixton was tho? It was literally no go

In Ireland there aren't many no go areas in that category....tiny parts of the city centre when the natives are doing burnouts in stolen cars..... parts of jobstown maybe..... tiny bits of Limerick. Traveller strongholds are mainly grand to pass through too if you don't mind kids shouting at you. I don't think there's anywhere in cork city that's no go for anyone.

I think our quite generous social welfare system is to thank for that...... social welfare does benefit us, at great cost of course.

However there are plenty places where "outsiders" shouldn't buy a house unless you don't mind being burgled regularly when you go to work.

I wandered into some spot near Guinness brewery in chinos & barker brogues one morning & was absolutely ****ting it...... was well weird.... lads in their 30s in groups on the footpaths with pit bull terriers on chain leashes.
But if I was in airmax & a tracksuit I'd have felt grand ish.

Cyrus

Augeo wrote: »

In Ireland there aren't many no go areas in that category....tiny parts of the city centre when the natives are doing burnouts in stolen cars..... parts of jobstown maybe..... tiny bits of Limerick. Traveller strongholds are mainly grand to pass through too if you don't mind kids shouting at you. I don't think there's anywhere in cork city that's no go for anyone.

I think our quite generous social welfare system is to thank for that...... social welfare does benefit us, at great cost of course.

However there are plenty places where "outsiders" shouldn't buy a house unless you don't mind being burgled regularly when you go to work.

I wandered into some spot near Guinness brewery in chinos & barker brogues one morning & was absolutely ****ting it...... was well weird.... lads in their 30s in groups on the footpaths with pit bull terriers on chain leashes.
But if I was in airmax & a tracksuit I'd have felt grand ish.

You have good taste in shoes anyway