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Affordability of Property and Irish Wages/Salaries

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    #32
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    No still doesn’t: asking why a couple on top salaries can’t buy as the OP did is not the same question at all as asking why a couple can’t buy. Quite obvious that if the question is restricted to a small subset at the top of the scale it is a very different one from a generic question about “young couple”.

    What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

    Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

    Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries


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    #33
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    I disagree, firstly renting for life is a far more viable option in other large European cities so buying isn't an integral part of the life equation like it is for us. Secondly if you take a top earning 30 year old couple in Brussels or Berlin they will be raking in comparatively more than enough to buy a house in a very decent part of city, the fact that their public transport system is significantly better than ours is a point against us rather than in their favour since we seem to be the only big city who struggle with it. Even a mediocre earning couple can get something that is within 30 mins of work through public transport.in Madrid, Frankfurt, etc. In New York you can work in Manhattan and buy a house for $600k in the Bronx which is a 30 minute commute away.

    IMO there is nothing to defend here. Why should top talent stay in Ireland when in all likelihood they'll have to settle for a house in Navan and spend two hours a day commuting for the rest of their lives? And where does that leave the regular professionals? Something doesn't add up.


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    #34
    TimeToShine
    Registered Users Posts: 4,881 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Bob24 wrote: »
    No still doesn’t: asking why a couple on top salaries can’t buy as the OP did is not the same question at all as asking why a couple can’t buy. Quite obvious that if the question is restricted to a small subset at the top of the scale it is a very different one from a generic question about “young couple”.

    What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

    Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

    Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries

    Yes they are "good" salaries, if want to get into extreme outliers your argument fails even further. Top couples in San Francisco are going to bring in $300k a piece, maybe more in NY. £200k+ a piece in London for a top of the line quant plus massive bonuses. You think these people can't buy brilliant properties in a capital city? Anybody capable of making this kind of money has long left Dublin for the bay area or a financial hub so comparing the two isn't very fair imo.


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    #35
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cyrus wrote: »
    What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?


    I’ll just answer for Dublin: a good quality home with 3+ bedrooms and decent storage in a good area of the city (safe, clean, good school nearby, good transport links, and considered relatively posh). And I’d say you have to be careful when you compare to other capital cities as given how widespread Dublin City/County is, in many countries it would be the equivalent of the capital city PLUS dozens of suburbs which are more affordable and good public transport links.

    But again what’s important to remember is that we are talking about people who are at the top 10% or less of their generation in terms of household income in the city. So when I look at society as a whole I actually don’t really care what they can afford - what matters is that decent options are available for each segment of society either to buy or to rent (of course with compromises when you go down the income scale, but not unreasonable compromises - for exemple no one should have to make a compromise on the safety of the area they live in due to financial constraints).


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    #36
    djPSB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭djPSB


    Cyrus wrote: »
    What should a young professional couple be able to buy? What would they be able to buy in any other capital city in Europe ?

    They could by a nice villa in Europe with a swimming pool and 5 bedrooms for the same price as a 3 bed semi detached in Dublin.

    Bearing in mind Ireland is a country with appalling public transport and health services.


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    #37
    djPSB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭djPSB


    Cyrus wrote: »
    What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

    Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

    Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries

    €150k gross should be enough to buy in a capital city.

    Vulture funds are driving the prices up in Dublin leaving a smaller pool for the public to buy.


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    #38
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I’ll just answer for Dublin: a good quality home with 3+ bedrooms and decent storage in a good area of the city (safe, clean, good school nearby, good transport links, and considered relatively posh). And I’d say you have to be careful when you compare to other capital cities as given how widespread Dublin City/County is, in many countries it would be the equivalent of the capital city PLUS dozens of suburbs which are more affordable and good public transport links.

    You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

    Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?


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    #39
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    djPSB wrote: »
    They could by a nice villa in Europe with a swimming pool and 5 bedrooms for the same price as a 3 bed semi detached in Dublin.

    Bearing in mind Ireland is a country with appalling public transport and health services.

    And you can buy a 5 bedroom house in Roscommon with a pool for less but that’s not answering the question is it


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    #40
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

    Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

    Exactly

    But the inference here is that everyone who earns above the average industrial wage should be able to live in ballsbridge


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    #41
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    djPSB wrote: »
    €150k gross should be enough to buy in a capital city.

    Vulture funds are driving the prices up in Dublin leaving a smaller pool for the public to buy.

    Vulture funds are buying up the 3 bed semi ds? Tell me more


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    #42
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    TimeToShine wrote: »
    Yes they are "good" salaries, if want to get into extreme outliers your argument fails even further. Top couples in San Francisco are going to bring in $300k a piece, maybe more in NY. £200k+ a piece in London for a top of the line quant plus massive bonuses. You think these people can't buy brilliant properties in a capital city? Anybody capable of making this kind of money has long left Dublin for the bay area or a financial hub so comparing the two isn't very fair imo.

    My argument fails further ? I have no idea what point you are trying to make comparing someone making 75k in Dublin to £200k plus in the city ?

    You think people in Dublin don’t make 6 figure salaries ?

    We aren’t talking about the very top earners here


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    #43
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Vulture funds are buying up the 3 bed semi ds? Tell me more

    We're not building 3 bed semi ds- in Dublin and a lot of more high demand areas- and in any event- the contention that vulture funds (or REITs- pick your favourite bogeyman) are buying them- is just wrong. There is a lack of supply- which is not being supplemented- and there was, until recently, an excess of prospective buyers out there (this has now fallen back on itself).

    In 2017- almost one in three mortgage approval in principles lapsed.
    In 2018 (to June) this phenomena has almost totally gone- i.e. people who want to buy are buying (something- not necessarily what they want- but something nonetheless).

    The bulk of 3 bed semis hitting the market in Dublin- I'd hazard- are landlords offloading them (as the perception is the market has clearly peaked- and the regulatory regime is as toxic as ever).

    Apartment prices are still recovering (albeit at a slowing pace)- freehold properties- have, by and large, stagnated.


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    #44
    Corb_lund
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭Corb_lund


    Plenty of people in my place earn 100k, far less at 250k+ and only a couple at 1m+

    But that's only one firm there is good money in the city. If IDA was actually skilled they'd have bought more front office environments across rather than the glut of low paid, soon (hopefully) to be automated fund services.

    House prices still seem to be rising albeit slower, but that is somewhat offset by the fact the percentage means more with a higher sticker price.


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    #45
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

    Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

    Where did I say you can’t?

    And the posh aspect is not nonsense and actually very important. Simply because - and this is the critical point I was raising in the second part of my post you didn’t quote - we are talking about a subset of households at the top end of the income scale for their generation. If they can’t afford posh, it means people at the middle of the scale can only afford bad options and the bottom the scale can’t afford anything.


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    #46
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Where did I say you can’t?

    And the posh aspect is not nonsense and actually very important. Simply because - and this is the critical point I was raising in the second part of my post you didn’t quote - we are talking about a subset of households at the top end of the income scale for their generation. If they can’t afford posh, it means people at the middle of the scale can only afford bad options and the bottom the scale can’t afford anything.

    do you believe that a 30 year old couple earning good salaries should be able to buy a family house in the most desirable parts of the country? or is that setting the bar a bit high for people working for 5-7 years at that point?


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    #47
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cyrus wrote: »
    do you believe that a 30 year old couple earning good salaries should be able to buy a family house in the most desirable parts of the country? or is that setting the bar a bit high for people working for 5-7 years at that point?

    With the figure we are talking about (150k), I’d say they are in the top 5% of households in the city for their age bracket in terms of income, and in any case to be conservative I’m sure they are in the top 10%. So yes I think they should be able to addord a good quality 3 bedrooms home in a desirable area. Never said it should be a piece of cake mind you, but if you just accept it’s out of reach for them, what are you saying to the other 90-95% of households at the age of starting a family who have smaller financial ressources?

    And its more of a long term political and social question than a short term financial one. The question asked here is: do we want our capital city to be affordable only for the top 10% households and social housing beneficiaries (which is already the case in some countries), or is it important for us to maintain social diversity? Personally I think making the first choice is breaking up society and a large cause for the growing lower/middle and middle class revolt in many Western countries.

    I don’t have any sense of entitlement and I am actually quite satisfied with my personal situation, but I wouldn’t want Ireland to sleepwalk into the same issues others are having when we just have to look around us to see what his been causing them. I’ve been told a few times that Ireland is 20-30 years behind many continental European counties in terms of social/economic development, this might have been a curse some time ago but I think today it is a blessing as things are going downhill in some of those counties and we have the chance to try and understand why before it happens to us (and I am not singling our housing as the only issue about which we can learn a lesson, simply talking about it here as it is the topic of this forum).


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    #48
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    With the figure we are talking about (150k), I’d say they are in the top 5% of households in the city for their age bracket in terms of income, and in any case to be conservative I’m sure they are in the top 10%. So yes I think they should be able to addord a good quality 3 bedrooms home in a desirable area. Never said it should be a piece of cake mind you, but if you just accept it’s out of reach for them, what are you saying to the other 90-95% of households at the age of starting a family who have smaller financial ressources?

    But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

    3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
    3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

    there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

    I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.


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    #49
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cyrus wrote: »
    I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

    Completely off topic through as no one said they should.


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    #50
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Completely off topic through as no one said they should.

    well where do you mean then because i have listed houses in good parts of dublin that people can buy, what point are you trying to make?


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    #51
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Cyrus wrote: »
    But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

    3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
    3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

    there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

    I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

    Not to mention if *GASP* they did the unthinkable, crossed the river, and looked in Drumcondra, Glasnevin etc.

    Probably too many unwashed over there.


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    #52
    ionapaul
    Registered Users Posts: 5,293 ✭✭✭ionapaul


    Also missing from the calculations above is the number of 30 year old professional couples on €150k combined (think that is the figures people are talking about?) that have savings far in excess as the minimum 10% deposit amounts something bandied about. Couples earning €100k+ for six or seven years before buying can very easily have six-figure savings and investments, and that's without the bank of Mum and Dad pitching in. Remember that in a market with tight supply, just having the salaries to 'justify' a certain house purchase price range may not do much good if you get into a bidding war with a similarly aged couple on similar salaries, who have €150k extra in savings for whatever reason.

    Obviously there are not too many of them around BUT prices are set at the margins, people can be very frugal, parents can be very generous, etc... I know a good few of my relations/peers bought their first homes in their mid-30s and would have went into the search with €200k in the bank. The age profile of the average home buyers in Ireland (on an upward trend since the Celtic Tiger I believe) has definitely contributed to the rising prices, as savings have come into the picture more and more as a result.


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    #53
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    I think we should all stop focusing on small groups and the top 10% as keeps getting mentioned and look at the entire property market. Could we all agree that the majority of people in Dublin who would like to buy a home earn under 45k?


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    #54
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,007 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Zenify wrote: »
    I think we should all stop focusing on small groups and the top 10% as keeps getting mentioned and look at the entire property market. Could we all agree that the majority of people in Dublin who would like to buy a home earn under 45k?

    45k-ish is the average wage for a full time worker so... Not sure I do agree?


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    #55
    Zenify
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭Zenify


    Most people agree the average is taken up by a lot of the top earners. These people usually already own property..?


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    #56
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cyrus wrote: »
    But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

    3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
    3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
    3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

    there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

    I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

    They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO :)


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    #58
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Augeo wrote: »
    They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO :)

    they are good quality 3 bedroom homes in 'nice' parts of the county, thats what people are referring to.

    maybe peoples expectations of what 5-600k gets them is skewed?


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    #59
    zl1whqvjs75cdy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    Augeo wrote: »
    They are all glum enough options for €500/€600k IMO :)

    Would agree. But such is the market now in the "posh" Dublin suburbs. Though that castle knock one in particular is suffering from a serious case of post code identify crisis.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah yeah, each to their own. I might have to buy similar some day myself :pac:


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    #61
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,676 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »
    Would agree. But such is the market now in the "posh" Dublin suburbs. Though that castle knock one in particular is suffering from a serious case of post code identify crisis.

    pretty common in d15 no?


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