Affordability of Property and Irish Wages/Salaries

Cyrus

Interested Observer wrote: »

What's the top end, above what sort of price?

i think properties at the 900k+ mark are slowing a little, affordability is kicking in,

if you want to buy a 1m house you need 200k + €230k in house hold earnings (if you have no kids), there arent that many out there that meet the criteria so they have their choice and are obviously a little slower to commit.

I think houses at a level where househould income of 100-150k is required will still be sought after - 6-700k and under

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

i think properties at the 900k+ mark are slowing a little, affordability is kicking in,

if you want to buy a 1m house you need 200k + €230k in house hold earnings (if you have no kids), there arent that many out there that meet the criteria so they have their choice and are obviously a little slower to commit.

I think houses at a level where househould income of 100-150k is required will still be sought after - 6-700k and under

Bit disappointing then because 900k+ is a tiny part of the market in Dublin, between 6 and 7% from what I can see on the PPR this year. Not much good to the vast majority of us.

Bluefoam

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote: »

Bit disappointing then because 900k+ is a tiny part of the market in Dublin, between 6 and 7% from what I can see on the PPR this year. Not much good to the vast majority of us.

Thats how averages work... no one is being mean to you.

Mickiemcfist

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thats how averages work... no one is being mean to you.

Badum Tish!

Cyrus

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote: »

Bit disappointing then because 900k+ is a tiny part of the market in Dublin, between 6 and 7% from what I can see on the PPR this year. Not much good to the vast majority of us.

probably a bit more, remember new builds will be ex vat on the PPR.

CB rules are what are putting the brakes on so its pretty clear it will only happen at those kind of levels, plenty of young professional couples with 120-180k a year between them

Bob24

Bluefoam wrote: »

Thats how averages work... no one is being mean to you.

Oh as far as arithmetics are concerned, any average is very much mean to me!

Cuddlesworth

Cyrus wrote: »

i think properties at the 900k+ mark are slowing a little, affordability is kicking in,

if you want to buy a 1m house you need 200k + €230k in house hold earnings (if you have no kids), there arent that many out there that meet the criteria so they have their choice and are obviously a little slower to commit.

I think houses at a level where househould income of 100-150k is required will still be sought after - 6-700k and under

I was thinking your idea of household income for younger people seems seriously out of whack, then I looked at your location. Fair enough I guess.

Sub 400-450 is where most professional couples are topping out at.

Cyrus

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I was thinking your idea of household income for younger people seems seriously out of whack, then I looked at your location. Fair enough I guess.

Sub 400-450 is where most professional couples are topping out at.

450 is (for a non FTB) is a 90k deposit leaving 360k mortgage requiring joint income (if no kids) of 100k.

Newly qualified big 4 accountants are commanding 60-70k, im guessing something similar for solicitors. Sales people in the tech co's in relatively entry levels sales roles can have OTE of 60-70 easily. I dont think im far off seeing young professional couples being able to get towards 150k combined.

Zenify

I think it's more like 40k?

https://www.glassdoor.ie/Salary/KPMG-Dublin-Salaries-EI_IE2867.0,4_IL.5,11_IM1052.htm

Bluefoam

Cyrus wrote: »

450 is (for a non FTB) is a 90k deposit leaving 360k mortgage requiring joint income (if no kids) of 100k.

Newly qualified big 4 accountants are commanding 60-70k, im guessing something similar for solicitors. Sales people in the tech co's in relatively entry levels sales roles can have OTE of 60-70 easily. I dont think im far off seeing young professional couples being able to get towards 150k combined.

How many graduates recieve roles in the big 4? For two of those to get married would be somewhat of a statistical anomaly. Solicitors get paid sweet F.A. upon graduation. Sales people are paid in buttons (literally), but can earn massive comission if they achieve unrealistic targets...

What planet do you live on?

keane2097

I see Eoghan Murphy is on boards.

Cyrus

Bluefoam wrote: »

How many graduates recieve roles in the big 4? For two of those to get married would be somewhat of a statistical anomaly. Solicitors get paid sweet F.A. upon graduation. Sales people are paid in buttons (literally), but can earn massive comission if they achieve unrealistic targets...

What planet do you live on?

im on the planet of experience of all of the things i spoke about, it seems that you arent :rolleyes:

Solicitors earn buttons? what kind of uninformed statement is that? You realise there are 1000's of solicitors working in the large firms earning excellent salaries right?

And i know exactly what sales people in the tech co's earn because i used to set the annual forecasts in one of them.

House prices are where they are because thats what people can afford, do you think people are buying them with imaginary money?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

ELM327

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They tax those at source now. unfortunately.
Paid for a lot of my house deposit though!

Cyrus

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

indeed i know a lot of people whose facebook RSUs covered a nice portion of their house purchase

Umaro

Bluefoam wrote: »

How many graduates recieve roles in the big 4?

Literally hundreds every year. I know, because I was one.

Bluefoam wrote: »

For two of those to get married would be somewhat of a statistical anomaly.

I assure you it's not. So many people end up in relationships with each other inside the Big 4. There is a lot of people who couple up after working in the same department for a few years.

Bluefoam wrote: »

Solicitors get paid sweet F.A. upon graduation.

Brightwater says:

Bluefoam wrote: »

What planet do you live on?

I'm honestly wondering if your post was satire, because it was so so wrong in so many points.

Arthur Daley

Yet making 75k+ would put you into the top, what 15%-20% of earners. 2 toghether would put you into the top probably 10-12% of households. There are some people who make these sums but they are in the top 15% of earners.

A lot of these high achievers can probably only really afford some semi d out the back of rathfarnham or firhouse in reality.

Bluefoam

Umaro wrote: »

Literally hundreds every year. I know, because I was one.




I assure you it's not. So many people end up in relationships with each other inside the Big 4. There is a lot of people who couple up after working in the same department for a few years.




Brightwater says:






I'm honestly wondering if your post was satire, because it was so so wrong in so many points.

Congratulations on being one of the elite & knowing others who are members of the top 15%... I didn't deny that those jobs exist, only that they are not representative of the societal average.

Cyrus

Bluefoam wrote: »

Congratulations on being one of the elite & knowing others who are members of the top 15%... I didn't deny that those jobs exist, only that they are not representative of the societal average.

solicitors earn sweet FA was your quote.

and no one said they are representative of the societal average but they are representative of a professional couple.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Cuddlesworth

Couple of things. Solicitors, chartered accountants and doctors are of course high earners. But they don't just rock into 75k a year at a young age.

The big four basically require a masters now. Most people start there at 24-26 and work as a trainee for 4 years earning practically nothing during that period(while they work their balls off), the wages scales during the trainee years are pretty pathetic.

Most are turfed at the end of the four years and upon leaving used to get offered circa 50k in Dublin, of course some walk into higher paying jobs but its not a huge number. Then over time their wages can increase.

I'm 5 years out from one of the big four, so it can't have changed that much in recent years.

So its fair to say the majority of sub 30 year old couples who want to buy a house are very unlikely to break 100k combined, even if they happen to both be professionals.

Bluefoam

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Don't be so defensive... anyone earing 75k as a graduate in Ireland is in a very good position. The average wage is just over 36k, therefore the a couple on average earnings would have about 72k joint... I do realise that you are talking about professional couples... but you are saying that graduates as a couple would have an anual earning of 150k... thats just not correct, even accounting for chart above, which would be the very top for a graduate in a very fortunate position.

https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Location=Dublin-Dublin/Salary

alwald

I would say, on top of my head, that most couples in good employment and without kids earn between 80k and 100K both which means that the maximum a bank would lend them is between 280k and 350K bearing in mind that they need the 10% deposit.

A lot of people won't be able to afford a property above 400K hence why couples nowadays are looking for apartments (2 to 3 beds) with a max of 40 min commute by bus/Luas to work instead of a 3 bed semi D in Meath or Louth with a 1.5H commute by car each way.

TimeToShine

The question is if a 30 year old professional couple who are both earning a top salary in excess of €150k between them can barely scrape their way into a mediocre three bed semi d in Rathfarnham then who in the name of God is actually in the mix for the other houses? And more importantly, why? What's the point of studying for 5 years, paying for a masters, excelling in your field for 10 years such that your salary significantly outstrips your peers and still not being able to afford the house that in any functioning economic landscape you should be within reach of?

Cyrus

Bluefoam wrote: »

Don't be so defensive... anyone earing 75k as a graduate in Ireland is in a very good position. The average wage is just over 36k, therefore the a couple on average earnings would have about 72k joint... I do realise that you are talking about professional couples... but you are saying that graduates as a couple would have an anual earning of 150k... thats just not correct, even accounting for chart above, which would be the very top for a graduate in a very fortunate position.

https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Location=Dublin-Dublin/Salary

No one was referring to graduates you’ve just introduced that

Cyrus

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Couple of things. Solicitors, chartered accountants and doctors are of course high earners. But they don't just rock into 75k a year at a young age.

The big four basically require a masters now. Most people start there at 24-26 and work as a trainee for 4 years earning practically nothing during that period(while they work their balls off), the wages scales during the trainee years are pretty pathetic.

Most are turfed at the end of the four years and upon leaving used to get offered circa 50k in Dublin, of course some walk into higher paying jobs but its not a huge number. Then over time their wages can increase.

I'm 5 years out from one of the big four, so it can't have changed that much in recent years.

So its fair to say the majority of sub 30 year old couples who want to buy a house are very unlikely to break 100k combined, even if they happen to both be professionals.

You obviously aren’t trying to hire any at the moment then, 50k wouldn’t touch the sides. That only existed for a period , when I left it was 70k or so ( 2006) and nowadays it’s pretty similar and that salary only goes one way if you are any good.

Also do a bcomm and macc you are working at 22, qualified at 25 and earning 60-70k in your first industry job. Adding another 20-40k on top of the over the next 5 years isn’t inconceivable

Cyrus

TimeToShine wrote: »

The question is if a 30 year old professional couple who are both earning a top salary in excess of €150k between them can barely scrape their way into a mediocre three bed semi d in Rathfarnham then who in the name of God is actually in the mix for the other houses? And more importantly, why? What's the point of studying for 5 years, paying for a masters, excelling in your field for 10 years such that your salary significantly outstrips your peers and still not being able to afford the house that in any functioning economic landscape you should be within reach of?

What should a young professional couple be able to buy? What would they be able to buy in any other capital city in Europe ?

kippy

Cyrus wrote: »

What should a young professional couple be able to buy? What would they be able to buy in any other capital city in Europe ?

Indeed. Its the same or similar situation in other European capital cities.

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

What should a young professional couple be able to buy? What would they be able to buy in any other capital city in Europe ?

The post you quoted said “30 year old professional couple who are both earning a top salary in excess of €150K”. Translating that to “a young professional couple” is completely changing the equation, so the question you are asking seems unrelated to the post you are quoting.

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

The post you quoted said “30 year old professional couple who are both earning a top salary in excess of €150K”. Translating that to “a young professional couple” is completely changing the equation, so the question you are asking seems unrelated to the post you are quoting.

To me that is a young professional couple , make sense now ?

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

To me that is a young professional couple , make sense now ?

No still doesn’t: asking why a couple on top salaries can’t buy as the OP did is not the same question at all as asking why a couple can’t buy. Quite obvious that if the question is restricted to a small subset at the top of the scale it is a very different one from a generic question about “young couple” such as the one you asked in return.

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

No still doesn’t: asking why a couple on top salaries can’t buy as the OP did is not the same question at all as asking why a couple can’t buy. Quite obvious that if the question is restricted to a small subset at the top of the scale it is a very different one from a generic question about “young couple”.

What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries

TimeToShine

I disagree, firstly renting for life is a far more viable option in other large European cities so buying isn't an integral part of the life equation like it is for us. Secondly if you take a top earning 30 year old couple in Brussels or Berlin they will be raking in comparatively more than enough to buy a house in a very decent part of city, the fact that their public transport system is significantly better than ours is a point against us rather than in their favour since we seem to be the only big city who struggle with it. Even a mediocre earning couple can get something that is within 30 mins of work through public transport.in Madrid, Frankfurt, etc. In New York you can work in Manhattan and buy a house for $600k in the Bronx which is a 30 minute commute away.

IMO there is nothing to defend here. Why should top talent stay in Ireland when in all likelihood they'll have to settle for a house in Navan and spend two hours a day commuting for the rest of their lives? And where does that leave the regular professionals? Something doesn't add up.

TimeToShine

Cyrus wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

No still doesn’t: asking why a couple on top salaries can’t buy as the OP did is not the same question at all as asking why a couple can’t buy. Quite obvious that if the question is restricted to a small subset at the top of the scale it is a very different one from a generic question about “young couple”.

What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries

Yes they are "good" salaries, if want to get into extreme outliers your argument fails even further. Top couples in San Francisco are going to bring in $300k a piece, maybe more in NY. £200k+ a piece in London for a top of the line quant plus massive bonuses. You think these people can't buy brilliant properties in a capital city? Anybody capable of making this kind of money has long left Dublin for the bay area or a financial hub so comparing the two isn't very fair imo.

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

I’ll just answer for Dublin: a good quality home with 3+ bedrooms and decent storage in a good area of the city (safe, clean, good school nearby, good transport links, and considered relatively posh). And I’d say you have to be careful when you compare to other capital cities as given how widespread Dublin City/County is, in many countries it would be the equivalent of the capital city PLUS dozens of suburbs which are more affordable and good public transport links.

But again what’s important to remember is that we are talking about people who are at the top 10% or less of their generation in terms of household income in the city. So when I look at society as a whole I actually don’t really care what they can afford - what matters is that decent options are available for each segment of society either to buy or to rent (of course with compromises when you go down the income scale, but not unreasonable compromises - for exemple no one should have to make a compromise on the safety of the area they live in due to financial constraints).

djPSB

Cyrus wrote: »

What should a young professional couple be able to buy? What would they be able to buy in any other capital city in Europe ?

They could by a nice villa in Europe with a swimming pool and 5 bedrooms for the same price as a 3 bed semi detached in Dublin.

Bearing in mind Ireland is a country with appalling public transport and health services.

djPSB

Cyrus wrote: »

What should a 30 year old couple earning 150k between be able to buy in Dublin or any other European capital?

Now you can give an answer instead of splitting hairs

Also to be clear , they are good salaries not top salaries

€150k gross should be enough to buy in a capital city.

Vulture funds are driving the prices up in Dublin leaving a smaller pool for the public to buy.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

I’ll just answer for Dublin: a good quality home with 3+ bedrooms and decent storage in a good area of the city (safe, clean, good school nearby, good transport links, and considered relatively posh). And I’d say you have to be careful when you compare to other capital cities as given how widespread Dublin City/County is, in many countries it would be the equivalent of the capital city PLUS dozens of suburbs which are more affordable and good public transport links.

You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

Cyrus

djPSB wrote: »

They could by a nice villa in Europe with a swimming pool and 5 bedrooms for the same price as a 3 bed semi detached in Dublin.

Bearing in mind Ireland is a country with appalling public transport and health services.

And you can buy a 5 bedroom house in Roscommon with a pool for less but that’s not answering the question is it

Cyrus

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote: »

You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

Exactly

But the inference here is that everyone who earns above the average industrial wage should be able to live in ballsbridge

Cyrus

djPSB wrote: »

€150k gross should be enough to buy in a capital city.

Vulture funds are driving the prices up in Dublin leaving a smaller pool for the public to buy.

Vulture funds are buying up the 3 bed semi ds? Tell me more

Cyrus

TimeToShine wrote: »

Yes they are "good" salaries, if want to get into extreme outliers your argument fails even further. Top couples in San Francisco are going to bring in $300k a piece, maybe more in NY. £200k+ a piece in London for a top of the line quant plus massive bonuses. You think these people can't buy brilliant properties in a capital city? Anybody capable of making this kind of money has long left Dublin for the bay area or a financial hub so comparing the two isn't very fair imo.

My argument fails further ? I have no idea what point you are trying to make comparing someone making 75k in Dublin to £200k plus in the city ?

You think people in Dublin don’t make 6 figure salaries ?

We aren’t talking about the very top earners here

The_Conductor

Cyrus wrote: »

Vulture funds are buying up the 3 bed semi ds? Tell me more

We're not building 3 bed semi ds- in Dublin and a lot of more high demand areas- and in any event- the contention that vulture funds (or REITs- pick your favourite bogeyman) are buying them- is just wrong. There is a lack of supply- which is not being supplemented- and there was, until recently, an excess of prospective buyers out there (this has now fallen back on itself).

In 2017- almost one in three mortgage approval in principles lapsed.
In 2018 (to June) this phenomena has almost totally gone- i.e. people who want to buy are buying (something- not necessarily what they want- but something nonetheless).

The bulk of 3 bed semis hitting the market in Dublin- I'd hazard- are landlords offloading them (as the perception is the market has clearly peaked- and the regulatory regime is as toxic as ever).

Apartment prices are still recovering (albeit at a slowing pace)- freehold properties- have, by and large, stagnated.

Corb_lund

Plenty of people in my place earn 100k, far less at 250k+ and only a couple at 1m+

But that's only one firm there is good money in the city. If IDA was actually skilled they'd have bought more front office environments across rather than the glut of low paid, soon (hopefully) to be automated fund services.

House prices still seem to be rising albeit slower, but that is somewhat offset by the fact the percentage means more with a higher sticker price.

Bob24

Aylin Jolly Backyard wrote: »

You can have all of safe, clean, good schools, good transport, 3+beds, decent size in Dublin city for 150k. Easily.

Considered relatively posh is a nonsense. What does it even mean?

Where did I say you can’t?

And the posh aspect is not nonsense and actually very important. Simply because - and this is the critical point I was raising in the second part of my post you didn’t quote - we are talking about a subset of households at the top end of the income scale for their generation. If they can’t afford posh, it means people at the middle of the scale can only afford bad options and the bottom the scale can’t afford anything.

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

Where did I say you can’t?

And the posh aspect is not nonsense and actually very important. Simply because - and this is the critical point I was raising in the second part of my post you didn’t quote - we are talking about a subset of households at the top end of the income scale for their generation. If they can’t afford posh, it means people at the middle of the scale can only afford bad options and the bottom the scale can’t afford anything.

do you believe that a 30 year old couple earning good salaries should be able to buy a family house in the most desirable parts of the country? or is that setting the bar a bit high for people working for 5-7 years at that point?

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

do you believe that a 30 year old couple earning good salaries should be able to buy a family house in the most desirable parts of the country? or is that setting the bar a bit high for people working for 5-7 years at that point?

With the figure we are talking about (150k), I’d say they are in the top 5% of households in the city for their age bracket in terms of income, and in any case to be conservative I’m sure they are in the top 10%. So yes I think they should be able to addord a good quality 3 bedrooms home in a desirable area. Never said it should be a piece of cake mind you, but if you just accept it’s out of reach for them, what are you saying to the other 90-95% of households at the age of starting a family who have smaller financial ressources?

And its more of a long term political and social question than a short term financial one. The question asked here is: do we want our capital city to be affordable only for the top 10% households and social housing beneficiaries (which is already the case in some countries), or is it important for us to maintain social diversity? Personally I think making the first choice is breaking up society and a large cause for the growing lower/middle and middle class revolt in many Western countries.

I don’t have any sense of entitlement and I am actually quite satisfied with my personal situation, but I wouldn’t want Ireland to sleepwalk into the same issues others are having when we just have to look around us to see what his been causing them. I’ve been told a few times that Ireland is 20-30 years behind many continental European counties in terms of social/economic development, this might have been a curse some time ago but I think today it is a blessing as things are going downhill in some of those counties and we have the chance to try and understand why before it happens to us (and I am not singling our housing as the only issue about which we can learn a lesson, simply talking about it here as it is the topic of this forum).

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

With the figure we are talking about (150k), I’d say they are in the top 5% of households in the city for their age bracket in terms of income, and in any case to be conservative I’m sure they are in the top 10%. So yes I think they should be able to addord a good quality 3 bedrooms home in a desirable area. Never said it should be a piece of cake mind you, but if you just accept it’s out of reach for them, what are you saying to the other 90-95% of households at the age of starting a family who have smaller financial ressources?

But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

Bob24

Cyrus wrote: »

I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

Completely off topic through as no one said they should.

Cyrus

Bob24 wrote: »

Completely off topic through as no one said they should.

well where do you mean then because i have listed houses in good parts of dublin that people can buy, what point are you trying to make?

Cyrus

Cyrus wrote: »

But they can afford a good quality 3 bedroom house in a desirable area.

3 bed stillorgan - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/3-bed-duplex-stillorgan-gate-upper-kilmacud-road-stillorgan-co-dublin/3816558
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-airpark-court-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4233345
3 bed rathfarnham - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/scholarstown-wood-scholarstown-road-rathfarnham-dublin-16/4089483
3 bed castlkeknock - https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/hse-13-oatlands-park-castleknock-dublin-15/4268930

there was loads of houses in clayfarm at these levels

I'm saying to the other 90% that i don't think 90% of people should be able to afford a house in ballsbridge.

Not to mention if *GASP* they did the unthinkable, crossed the river, and looked in Drumcondra, Glasnevin etc.

Probably too many unwashed over there.