Wheel of Time (Amazon)

Daroxtar

What to say....where to start....

I have plenty of issues with that episode

The pacing was all over the place. Half the episode about Stepin and the Aes Sedai bond when it could have been dealt with in about 3 minutes. Let him go nuts and maniacally charge Logain and die at the end of last weeks show, then have Lan or someone else explain why it happened. 

Yet the journey to Tar Valon becomes a "One Month Later" graphic ??? Then the whole thing of Loial just showing up with Nynaeve in tow.....seriously?? I know they're TaVerene so this kind of thing can happen but casual viewers won't know the significance of what that means.

Lan- Stone faced and emotionless? Clint Eastwood mixed with a robot? Nope, bawling crying because some lad he hadn't seen in years and barely spoke to died. 

Spoiler Warning

Liandrin- So they've appeared to have merged her with Eliada. Is she still going to be Black Ajah? How's that going to work out when she takes over as Amyrlin seat?

Camelyn- Have we just skipped probably the second biggest/most powerful city on the planet? Where's Elayne and Morgase and Gareth Bryne? They are *kind of* important, no?

Tar Valon- I imagined it would be enormous with huge boulevards and the White Tower would be absolutely colossal, like BaradDur or Orthanc. Not little narrow cluttered streets everywhere and a somewhat large castle on a hill. Remember, the Ogier built it using their ancient methods. It should take days to walk through.

Is it possible that the producers got as far as Camelyn by episode 5 of 10 but the money men said "No, sorry you've only got 8 episodes so paint the castle white and skip those 2 episodes"?

Loial- He should be 10 foot tall, every bit as big as a Trolloc. Where's his ears? There was nearly as much written about his ears as Nynaeve's braid!! And then there's his hair!?!? He looks like someone spilled a mutagen on Moss from the IT Crowd. Now, an about turn. Despite the criticism of his appearance his portrayal is pretty spot on. The voice is perfect and his "Aielman from the 2 rivers" scene with Rand was damn near peak Loial.

Perrin- The actor is rubbish but I'm beginning to remember that I thought he was a brutally dull, miserable character for a lot of the books so maybe he's bang on.

Now apart from that... if I ignore the books it wasn't that bad. I've been watching it with my wife and she's absolutely loving it. Nearly in tears watching the last scene (oblivious to how wrong it was for Lan)

Several non-book-reader friends have had FB posts recently urging everyone to get on board asap.

Maybe my problem is I've touched the source but now I've been cut off. I've been gentled and I'll have to live with it or go mad.

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118268216#Comment_118268216

Oh I totally forgot that part of the story (falls in to the garden?) That is a huge hole.

Edit: And a hole in my memory;-)

kerplun k

I think people are being a bit harsh on the casting and acting. TBH, I feel the same about this cast as I did when I first watched GOT. Perfectly acceptable bunch that will hopefully grow into the roles. The only sticky point for me really is Mat. Kinda sticks out like a sore thumb, his character looks like he belongs in a different TV show. Anyhews, as I said, despite that, I’m really liking this.

I'm not getting the Perrin hate? He has nothing to work with until later in the story

spookwoman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118268216#Comment_118268216

I've started reading the first book again and have just got to the part of Rand reaching Caemlyn. They have butchered the story and even if it is to condense it they missed important parts. Thom's history, Basil Gill, the boat and the number of towns that Rand and Matt go through with dark friends after them. The characters might not talk much but there is plenty going on and where is Elyas and Min? I'm enjoying the series but there has been too much artistic license taken to the filming.

Ave Sodalis

Just a note on Lan in that episode. Whilst it does diverge from the books, in the world of the tv show he wasn't yelling and crying because that's the way he is. He was yelling and crying because it would seem the warder (or maybe Stepin's culture) funeral calls for a dedicated person to take on and express the grief of everyone in the room.

Sudden Valley

I liked perrin much more in this episode. It doesn't help him that the actor looks as interesting as a plank of wood. I don't see this series making it past season 2 just too much negativity from book fans. Never finished the books myself so may read a summary to learn the ending because I doubt I will ever see it on screen.

Ave Sodalis

@spookwoman

Spoiler Warning

Basil Gill is cast and since Rand mentioned it was Thom who said about that inn, I'm going to guess they just haven't shown him yet.

The number of towns was always going to be cut. For TV, we don't need that many, just a sense that it's a long journey and they were being chased. The boat is important because they're a recurring character, but was Mat and Rand's first journey on it necessary for the plot? Rand didn't really need to learn to play a flute.

Min is also cast and given Moiraine's reaction during her conversation with Alanna, I'd say Min's talents are going to remain in the show.

BillyHasMates

Luckily for me it has been a few years since I have read the books so it is making it a bit easier for me not to keep thinking of the books too much when I watch it. I have started accepting that there might be some alterations to the bookand some scenes left out, just hope the core story stays. I do agree with others that Tar Valon looked very underwhelming and expected the ogier to be physically bigger, although I guess that would be harder to do without more CGI.

I always got the impression that Tar Valon should impress us, who've seen modern metropolis cities, never mind middle-age tech level farm boys.

It spectacularly failed, in this regard. I mean would the cgi for that have really been harder than what they presented?

Dave_The_Sheep

I think part of what is irritating me about scenes that are left out, or things that are skipped, is that they're putting so much extra stuff in that never existed in the books. Example, the general waste of time that was the Steppin arc in the last episode. The warder-Aes Sedai bond could have been explained with a lot less time invested and that would have left time for other scenes that were skipped, particularly when episodes this season are at a premium already. Given the amount of great source material that exists, it takes a special mindset to decide "Oh, we'll just totally make up our own scenes instead". And no, I'm not expecting a one for one adaptation, but I am expecting to at least see scenes from the books, not just scenes made up later in the same(ish) world.

spookwoman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118268583#Comment_118268583

Don't blame the book fans. Would the publishers have accepted the first one and then the other 13 and more if they thought people would not read them. It's that story and those people who bought all the books, creating a fan base that got this series started. If you're are going to base something on a book at least try and stick to the same flow of the story especially with such a large fanbase.

Could you image if they had done the same level of messing about with lord of the rings, I doubt it would have done as well, because Peter Jackson knew, don't f*ck with the story too much.

Daroxtar

How hard was it to make Chewbacca seem big? Loial looks at most a couple of inches bigger than Rand.

pixelburp

This thread seems to have devolved into a post mortem of book Vs show. Or a particular focus on what the show isn't doing Which, ehhhhh. I dunno I get it but also find the thread a bit impenetrable, a smidge tedious or unhelpful to plebs like me who never read the novels. But then I appreciate theres a series of beloved novels, and thus passionate fans. So they made big, apparently heretical changes. That sucks. But maybe either resolve that the show isn't going to be what you hoped / wanted, or focus on what the show itself is or isn't delivering on in the here and now.

Adaptations are not as simple as copy and pasted. Adapt verbatim and you get snoozefests like the first Harry Potter films; Dune was famously unfilmable because of its reliance on internal monologues; while even the LotR trilogy made changes to characters and events to suit things. Or wholesale removal, as was the case with Tom Bombadil (though even fans admit his disappearance was no sin).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118269634#Comment_118269634

You should have seen what he planned initially...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118269690#Comment_118269690

Honestly everyone expects changes but much of what they've changed is core to the world of WoT.

Not the superficial changes, no one really cares that Two Rivers has slate roof building years too early etc, but there are bedrock shifting alterations being made

Flinty997

I think the point is the TV series isn't telling a coherent story on it own.

The only way to understand it is to refer back to the books. But that is of limited use since the TV series has strayed from the books quite a bit. But not in any way that makes any sense.

But you can just sit back and enjoy it as is.

Dave_The_Sheep

This sentiment goes around a lot online, so I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular. "Stop expecting a direct copy of the books"; most book fans are not and it's disingenuous to claim they are (and I'm not saying you're making that claim at all, pixel). Changes are to be expected, it's the nature of adaptation. There are changes here made for the sake of changes, without seeming to think through the implications of said change. There's new material being added for no or at least not sufficient reason, while plenty of existing material (with a point to it) is axed. The phrase "It's a new turning of the wheel" is seriously beginning to grate. I've actually stopped reading a lot of online fan discussion (particularly on the various subreddits) as a result.

For the record I'm actually quite enjoying the show, though I thought episode 1 and 5 were very poor. The others were rather good though. Casting has generally been spot on, effects and set/costume design generally good with a few gripes here and there. The only thing bringing me down is the writing, the rest I'm thoroughly enjoying and I'm delighted to see this on-screen, so that many more people get to experience the WoT world.

As people have mentioned, fans are passionate about these books, and want to see the TV series to well (the vast majority anyway). They also want it to be the best it can be, which I'm not 100% we're getting here. I'm hopeful though that it can find it's feet. Episode 7 should be the interesting one, and Brandon Sanderson has said that episode 6 is his favourite, so hopefully we get two bangers.

Slydice

5: Aaaaaaah... no. Dude.

Spoiler Warning

Right so. The White Tower has a city around it. Hadn't wrapped that into my imagination but it makes sense now that I see it.

Kinda reminds me a bit of how Minas Tirith was done in Lord of the Rings.

People seem to be mostly back to low power levels. These frickin whitecloaks come across as really wierd and also.. why haven't they had their asses handed to them. Maybe they are much bigger than has been shown so far.

Anyway, seems like the Blacksmith might be something of or like a Lycan.

Seems like the bookshop dude.. a trolloc maybe? is going to have more of a bigger part to play later.

Sad moments there at the end.

No big feel of revealing the bigger plot all that much. Still very much at an intro to the world level story.

Corruptedmorals

I've read the books several times, I don't have any major complaints about the series. I love it. Seeing these characters brought to life is what I wanted. Rafe warned years ago that cities would be skipped and locations condensed, which makes perfect sense. Do you really need Rand falling into the garden? Elayne and co. can perfectly well be introduced later when they are relevant. Loial's look took some getting used to but the actor made it work, demeanour etc. is spot on. I really wanted the tower to be much taller and dominating. Sure it's the centre of the city but I expected it to be much bigger and have very delicate features, shouldn't really have been too much to ask.

The Stepin/Lan plot could certainly have had less time spent on it when time is at a premium but I appreciate the significance of the warder/Aes Sedai bond being developed in such a way. I think if there was one more episode in the season then this wouldn't have been an issue at all. Clearly it's an issue that Robert Jordan's style is so descriptive and they can't just have the characters doing full exposition all the time. I trust the way they are accomplishing the world building and pushing character arcs forward to counterbalance the focus not being on one in particular.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118269793#Comment_118269793

I've only watched the first 3 episodes and wouldn't have said it was incoherent. A bit scattershot and withholding of its internal lore but I'm so sick of exposition used as world building polyfilla it's nice to just watch something and figure out things as I go, sometimes retroactively. Characters talking between themselves about things normal to them, is rare enough.

What makes the thread a pain to read is for this book ignorant soul, is it's hard to know what people think of it on its own merits - probably why elsewhere the ask is to have a "book readers only" thread, allowing the rest to just discuss what's on screen. Was more justifiable with a popular sensation like Game of Thrones; not sure it could be realistically done here.

I have seen this complaint a few times now and i have to say it feels like ye are seeking to make it because i dont think its borne out by the thread im reading

Us book readers have been clear to set out where the issues are with the show separate to where differences from the book exist

Some of the differences are necessary, inevitable and good and some are so far strange decisions that bode quite poorly for the storyline and characters that we know- some of the choices made so far dont work for the tv show on their own merits

Like it or not its an existing popular book series so taking that as a platform but changing stuff willy nilly for no good reason is in itself going to be an issue

Plenty of discussion about the show on its own merits, even from readers

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271903#Comment_118271903

In fairness GOT had it's own share of unresolved story arcs and questions that were never answered. It's no gold standard in that regard.

I can't watch the show from the perspective of not knowing the back story. Because I know the back story.

If you think it makes sense as is that's great. Or that you don't care if it does, that's also ok.

Sudden Valley

It seems that it's very hard to win over the traditional fans online we see that so much these days with the traditional star trek star wars, walking dead fans turning on the new adoptions. This is the only wheel of time adaption that I will get in my lifetime I'm sure so will enjoy it as long as it lasts.

stesaurus

I wish the book readers would just **** off with their comparisons to the books and just watch the show for what it is, a tv show. I say that as a book reader btw.

We had all this crap with GoT back when that started and it became a massive divide until the mods stepped in.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272576#Comment_118272576

My favourite example of this from the Star Trek forum

 Picard feels like it was written by people who never watched TNG and only know the character from the memes.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272523#Comment_118272523

The story makes about as much sense as I can divine from things said, or actions taken by characters. The plot itself isn't especially complex beyond the obvious reduction of a potential Messiah or Lucifer poised to change the world. If there are subtle differences that are somehow heretical to the books then I don't know them; if there are major contradictions within the narrative of the show itself - then that's a conversation to have. But again, don't see any major ones TBH.

coffeyt

I first started reading this series about 25 years ago and i have read it numerous times. It's probably my all time favourites and one I keep returning to so have massive interest in how it's developed for tv. Yes it's hard to let go but am trying to give the tv series the chance it deserves.

Of course there are going to be changes from the books (some make sense, some not so much) and this has to be accepted as a necessity to make any tv series adaption but so far I am really enjoying seeing it brought to life!!

I'm just genuinely delighted I am finally getting to see it on screen so am happily ignoring any glaring issues (they might make sense later) for the time being. I'm actually liking some of the changes as it's allowing me to have some 'what the heck moments'

OwaynOTT

To be honest, there’s enough to complain about without having to talk about the myriad of frankly ludicrous changes made in the translation to book to screen but we want to talk about these too 😄

I was a LOTR reader and was never vitriolic about the changes. I disliked the changes to Gimli, a lot, and thought that the Ents were mistreated but overall I thought the main story and the look/feel was right.

Same with Game of Thrones (well up to the point they ran out of adaptable material) and, more recently, The Expanse.

Right now the look/feel and story changes are more Hobbit films than LOTR.

Some of the, honestly, needless changes are actually potentially lore/world breaking. It depends on where they go but they have made changes they didn't need to which are red flags.

I'm still enjoying this but without the book readers there would be no series. They are leveraging on an existing property and its fanbase to drive the shows popularity. So they are leaning on that base but making fundamental changes to the universe. People understand that it's an adaption and not a transcription. There will be changes in the different medium but why attack the foundations of the story?

Otherwise they could have just made a new IP and we could all judge it on nothing buts its merits.