Wheel of Time (Amazon)

Loughc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213682#Comment_118213682

Judging by hype and reviews online there isn’t much appeal for this at all.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213682#Comment_118213682

Not gritty enough for me tbh. It is like GOT for a younger audience. It doesn't have the nastiness that defined GOT baddies like Joffrey and Ramsay Bolton. These guys were nasty to the core and invoked an emotional reaction in the audience. Equally we were invested in the Starks from the first episode. So far in WOT there are no characters I particularly like or dislike and in 3 episodes we had

Spoiler Warning

the LOTR fleeing from baddies onto the barge and from countless fantasy books the visit to the cursed city (that "doomed us all" but not really). Couple this with the cliched not very graphic village massacre it seems like it is just generic family friendly woke fantasy

I will watch the next one and see how it goes. Have to say I am finding the book hard work aswell.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213778#Comment_118213778

I'm not sure why people think it should be like GOT. In my opinion GOT is very different from most Fantasy, especially older stuff.

WOT of time while written in the 90's feels like something written before that.

The TV is based on the books, but there no reason for it to slavishly follow them, for a modern audience.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214139#Comment_118214139

I never said it needed to be like GOT but it is the natural comparison to make given the limited amount of series made in the genre. My point above was that GOT had stronger characters that got you invested in the story whereas so far I don't really care about any of the WOT characters. This may change as the series goes on.

Right now I'm getting a BBC Merlin vibe, with blood. It does feel like something the BBC would string together, rather than a mega budget global smash

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214250#Comment_118214250

It's a natural comparison and the reality is that, despite still not being finished, A Song of Ice and Fire is a far better written series than The Wheel of Time with better developed characters. It would never have gotten published without the success of Wheel of Time though as the latter's depth of world-building pretty much changed the face of fantasy literature.

In short, Game of Thrones had much stronger material to adapt for a television series, it no doubt helped that George RR Martin had worked in television so some of his story structuring was more naturally suited to adaptation too... the drop in quality of Game of Thrones in it's final few series started the minute they passed the novels published to date.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214523#Comment_118214523

One thing I will say. I think that Martin is completely stuck because he is unwilling/unable to completely abandon (mentally) dead-end story plots. Jordan/Sanderson were ruthless there

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214314#Comment_118214314

That was the series I was trying to think of. Agree completely

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118213778#Comment_118213778

Books up to around book 6 is the peak of the series; it's downhill from around there with the lowest point around book 11 before it starts to slightly climb upwards again but never getting back to previous peaks (it becomes more a "Well I might as well finish the series").

In regards to the series it appears they fall foul of a common issue; they want to make it "their own" but they don't dare stray to far away from the original material in doing so yet they stray far enough to annoy. I'm thinking Ghostbuster 2016, The Watch! (BBC) etc. as examples. If they really want to do another turn of the wheel then they need to be more bold in their approach and go their own way or stick closer to the original. Trying to keep a foot in both camps at all times is a sure recipe to fail.

Mitch Connor

The head cannon of it being a different turn of the wheel doesn't actually make sense in terms of what the books say.

Rand having LTs memories is a shock of sorts to the Forsaken - and it is staight up said by them that people being re-incarnated just isn't a thing that is known or suspected on a wide scale. the dragon being reborn is a big deal because of the reborn part as much as the dragon part.

When they talk through the different ages there is no mention of lives being repeated in slightly differing ways - it is different people in a different time doing different things.

So I don't think it is a case of trying to keep a foot in both camps - they have simply chosen to adapt the books in places rather than go line for line or even beat for beat. Sanderson's stated head cannon is no more valid then the head cannon things you see in any fandom to explain away differences or plot points.

By the way, where the hell is Lan's cloak? Or did I... not see it?

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214788#Comment_118214788

I saw a reference to this on reddit: apparently both Lan's colour-changing cloak and the Aes Sedai's "ageless" appearance were sacrificed as the CGI budget would have been too expensive to maintain both for the duration of the series.

Or it's a world on the other side of a standing stone, which is not good as they are tied completely to the prime world from the books

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214741#Comment_118214741

Exactly this. Not something that bothers me. Once I got past a helicopter in Where Eagles Dare, (my fav xmas movie) I can get over most things.

Black Sheep

I read the WOT years ago and although I agree the series dipped heavily towards the end, even before Jordan's death, on the whole I look back with approval and nostalgia.

For reasons others have outlined above I agree comparisons to Games of Thrones are inevitable and inescapable. Game of Thrones, as written, probably does inherently lend itself better to HBO adaptation. The plotting is ingenious, at least for the first several books /series.

The violence in Game of Thrones, whether the book or TV version, is a few notches too high for my personal taste. Not sure I know anyone who thinks it is a great show because of the extreme violence(?). It's not gratuitousness in the way Eli Roth uses violence in his horror movies, but inflicting violence on vulnerable people, whether 'realistic' or not, sometimes feels like it's a lazy way for a writer to get a rise out of the audience.

In fantasy fiction obviously we have had the whole 'grimdark' phase which is somewhat losing its grip in recent years, although it's here to stay to at least some extent.

Jordan preceded that, and that's one of things I like about the WOT. It's not just less violent compared to Martin .... It's also less so compared to Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen or most other big multi-book epics I can think of.

With so much violent content around, to be honest I liked the way that Jordan kept of his gruesome stuff offstage and in the mind of the reader. I remember as a kid shuddering as I would read vague allusions to Trollock cookpots, or Fades torturing people with hot pincers, but that was about as spicy as the writing got, and he didn't need to be more explicit to achieve his objectives, IMO, it wasn't what the books were about, they feel more like they were pulpy, enjoyable fantasy adventure writing intended to cause people to have strong emotions but not to revolt or tackle "issues".

As for the Amazon show...

***SPOILERS BELOW***

It's not awful.

Things I like: The depiction of the trollocs, the wardrobe of characters in general, the casting of Moiraine, Nynaeve, Lan, Perrin and Mat (He's recast though). Whitecloaks... I kind of liked the quasi religious cult aesthetic they developed for them, I actually think it works better than the Crusaders / Normans aesthetic that Jordan seemed to envisage in the books.

Things I can accept: The plot changes that the writers made around there being 4 ta'veren, Perrin having been married etc. I really doubt they will achieve what they hope they'll achieve, but writers are going to do things like that when the IP originator is dead. I do think their decision to imply that Egwene COULD somehow be the Dragon makes no sense in the context of Jordan's world building. I understand their desire for it, but his whole idea of why men (and the Dragon) go insane is because the male side of the One Power is tainted by the Dark One. If Egwene were the Dragon then she wouldn't go insane, it just doesn't work with the whole rest of the plot for the books. I've seen people on Reddit saying "calm down, we know it's not going to be her anyway so what does it matter?" ... And yeah, it doesn't actually matter, but... It's still OK to say it was a stupid decision from a writing standpoint.

Things I don't like: The pacing... I get that it's a large series, but I feel, at times, like we're watching a re-cap or abridged version. In their haste to get through all that source material I feel they run the risk of not building the characters enough. At this stage, for example, Rand is kind of coming across as a bit of a dick. In the books, by now, you're much more sympathetic to him. He's a fish out of water once he leaves his village, but we're never in doubt that we're rooting for him. In the show, he's just a disgruntled ginger with a chip on his shoulder so far.

Overall, hard to see this show not sinking without a trace after a few seasons, however, it feels 'lightweight'.

Loughc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214314#Comment_118214314

Yes this is exactly what it reminded me of!

Gary kk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214314#Comment_118214314

Rome was probably the best show that they ever did and is worth a watch

Flinty997

I think the villages look too generic, and too small in scale. Which might be giving it that TV vibe.

OwaynOTT

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118214617#Comment_118214617

I dint agree that Jordan was ruthless with storylines at all. So many meandering storylines that had little pay off or just went on and on while we waited for other storylines to catch up.

YellowFeather

Hmmm. I liked it. Although I can say that, in a weird way, as I grew up with these books and have read the series a few times. They are close to my heart. But I know they cannot be recreated exactly, and a few plot changes are par for the course in bringing this to the screen.

To be totally faithful would require hours upon hours of internal monologue, and this would, at best, satisfy the hard core fans, but alienate new comers. Even though I will miss knowing what Elayne thought of her diluted wine, or Matt on his spicy stew..

I actually quite liked the Trollocs’ look. Wouldn’t want to meet one of those in a dark alley.

But, I am not the hugest fan of the racial diversity in the Two Rivers. I mean, it won’t matter in the grand scale of things, but it seems purely done to offset any complaints, but, as mentioned, there are many, many different characters - some very important - who are of different races, so I don’t understand the need to do this. It would be like a tv show about Ireland in the 50s, where half of the characters are mixed race. It’s just slightly jarring.

But it’s a small point really. I think I will continue on with the series, although I terrible at watching things to completion.

Except if there is that one scene with a good friend of Perrin’s. Won’t be watching that. The book part alone had me in a bad way!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216103#Comment_118216103

I meant it in more that they didn't care to go to every little detail. It was lax but just meant that they kept writing.

Martin has several plot lines that I don't think the story can get out of

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216103#Comment_118216103

agreed - i think it is more a case of him not liking where he left something off and deciding to ignore it for the most part.

Why in the name of the light did Matt not tell Elayne about Lord Gabrial. FFS. COME ON MAN.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217336#Comment_118217336

That's my point. Martin will never finish ASOI&F because he is incapable of letting go

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118217355#Comment_118217355

Wonder does GRRM have a Brandon Sanderson lined up in case he doesn't get the job done. If he does I doubt it'll be Benioff and Weiss...

Daroxtar

I thought Sanderson did a great job of tidying up the books. He tied up as many threads in his first 2 or 3 chapters as Jordan did in the previous 3 books.

All my complaints (and I feel most are valid) and here I am still waiting on the next episode

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118222572#Comment_118222572

I know he had a job to do but it felt like a bit rushed in the end.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118216573#Comment_118216573

I actually quite liked the Trollocs’ look. Wouldn’t want to meet one of those in a dark alley.

There were pretty serviceable for the main footsoldiers of villainy although I can't get out of my head the description I quoted above:

up close they look like Lemmy out of Motörhead (RIP) after a bad night. 

The Fades definitely cut a dash though, wonder if they took visual inspiration from this guy

YellowFeather

They do not look like Lemmy on a bad night. 😂

But, yah, it’s I’m actually not sure why the Fades need those pointy teeth. Scary, for sure, but perhaps not required on a day-to-day basis.

Anyway. Fourth episode is ready and waiting for watching over dinner. Quite looking forward!

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118228378#Comment_118228378

Fourth episode is ready and waiting

So it is. Thought it wasn't due till midnight