Wheel of Time (Amazon)

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272576#Comment_118272576

Bit of an untrue generalisation.

The Expanse was well recieved. Mandalorian was well recieved. GOT was mostly well recieved.

Your argument seems to be people should accept anything. They are lucky to get it. It's not written for those who are fans of the books. But a less demanding TV audience. Er ok...

This is bit like when someone says they're open to constructive criticism. But then shut down any criticism. Then when it goes pears shaped complain no one told them.

Basically only happy to discuss the TV show as long as it's not critical in any way.

Flinty997

I don't think people have been super critical of it anyways. Happy to have it mad. Just puzzled at the decisions made.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118273602#Comment_118273602

True regarding expanse but I'm not against criticism just the over the top "hope it gets cancelled" negativity of some forms of fandom. Batman has been adapted numerous times with small changes yet appears to be immune from "they changed it now it sucks"mentality. The main elements of the books seem to be still there.

Flinty997

Batman...

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1077027-batman_and_robin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%26_Robin_(film)#Critical_response

Clooney himself has spoken critically of the film, saying in 2005, "I think we might have killed the franchise", and called it "a waste of money"

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272777#Comment_118272777

The changes that have been made are all the kind of things that you have to do when taking something like these books from page to screen. There's too much internal monologue for it to work as written, and having characters just explain stuff makes for really dull tv.

Nothing that they have changed is for no reason, and I really wish book readers would stop saying this as if it was fact, before they've seen how the changes ultimately pay off. The characters are more or less developing the same way they did in the books. I think a 10 episode season would have given them a lot more wiggle room to not feel rushed in places, but the complaints about the changes from the books are way overblown imo, and completely unrealistic - we were never going to get everything from the books on screen, and once you start cutting things, you have introduce other material to fill in gaps. Jordan was a great storyteller and world builder but he was by no means the best fantasy writer I've read (doesn't hold a candle to Steven Erikson imo, for example)

I'm re-reading WOT at the moment...3 books in...and they could not be described as tightly written - a lot of what has been cut so far would have made for repetitive tv, and they have so much to get through to tell the overall story, editing is going to be a reality book readers are going to have to accept with this adaptation. As someone who was a die hard fan (you'd kinda have to be to get through books 7-10 tbh), I'm happy that this FEELS like WOT to me, and it's generally hitting the main story points. Absolutely enjoying it for what it is.

Daroxtar

I rewatched ep5 today and stopped trying to align it with the novels. Despite my criticism yesterday, I am enjoying the show and the second viewing definitely did no harm. I actually felt more invested in the Stepin storyline. Still not sold on Perrin but Loial was spot on. I thought ep4 was better but this one has grown a bit on me.

Agree completely with previous posters who said that it might not be exactly the same storyline but it has the right feel of WOT. I suppose that's the most important thing

twinex

I also appreciate this for what it is and I've said before that I enjoy seeing the characters I loved from the books brought to the screen.

Going forward, and for the sake of positivity, I'm going to be like "oh they've added that part" instead of thinking of all that they've cut from it. It'll drive you mad, better to be gentled...

Flinty997

No one is saying it should be exactly like the books. I'd argue most fans of the books would love to see it condensed into about 60% of it's original size.

But I'll be interested in seeing why Lan blubbing like a baby or all that painful self reflection of Warders turns out to a better use of the budget and screen time than something else.

Or why they used a large budget to make some sets like the tower interior look so cheap and small.

What you're saying is this will all resolve itself to be more appropriate for the TV storyline.

I've watched too much of Discovery. I hope it doesn't go down that woke route of someone having a personal crisis every 5 mins. I've got PTSD from trying to watch that.

Flinty997

That's said it's been ok so far. These are just quibbles. But that's what forums are far. To engage in robust discussion in topics of mutual interest. If we weren't interested in the show and weren't still watching it, we wouldn't be posting here.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118274089#Comment_118274089

I suppose, in trying to think that idea through: maybe it's because with comics, there's an acknowledgement that ultimately, these were cheap, disposable and essentially worthless children's stories - modern-day "penny dreadfuls" - whose canon was basically made up ad-hoc week to week (Superman originally wasn't an alien, couldn't fly, had no laser beam vision etc. etc. While the original Batman was just a guy with a gun). The medium comes with an engrained malleability with its adaptations, so generally? Anything goes and nobody bats an eyelid if the core details remain intact. Now, that's not to say backlash isn't possible: witness the most recent example when new stories penned Superman's son Jonathan as bi-sexual. Or someone gender-flips a character; but that's symptomatic of a larger paranoia that goes beyond fiction.

With the novel, there's a sense of permanence because by and large, everything contained within is the "truth", nailed down before it even reached the audience. A holy writ, for want of a better phrasing: that the novel contains all themes, tones, intentions arcs, and culminations that might be. The nature of the medium also means the reader needs to picture events happening, engage with the text on a personal level to create a version in their head - one that sometimes adaptations "Ruin" by not being what the audience imagined. So you seem to get a more stubborn, more definitive demand from fans about what "should" be adapted, and more outsized disappointment when aspects are missed, ignored or changed. The "script" was already there, as it were.

Black Sheep

I quite enjoy all the discussion of the books as compared to the TV show, to be honest, I think that's what makes this thread worth reading :) I suspect the main thing is to be careful to use spoilers for those that haven't read the books.

To the general point about an element of fandom not accepting certain re-writes, reboots and adaptations. It kind of depends, though, doesn't it? Because there's been some pretty shoddy products served up of late by studios and production companies too risk-averse to sink money into generating new IP and who would rather turn a profit on pre-existing much-loved IP. When the pre-existing fanbase get a product which they think is substandard, why shouldn't they push back?

I'm also not sure how you stop a fanbase expressing a view that they don't like something. Who does that really serve, anyway- The production company and IP owners who don't want to see downvoting on Rotten Tomatoes, or opinion pieces making fun of how bad their reboot/adaptation is? It's hard to get too worried about it.

As far as episode 5 goes:-

I continue to love the way they've depicted the Whitecloaks and I really think the depiction of Valda is an upgrade compared to the novels. The scene where they scrub one of the prisoners was cleverly done, the way they made the sound of bristles on skin really loud, quite creepy and disturbing.

Tar Valon started out OK, I thought the street scenes were fine, although now that I think of it ... Was it a re purposing of the Shadar Logoth set, with much more colour and tidied up a bit?

The interiors of the White Tower, as others have said, seem a bit small scale and cheap-looking. In a way it's cool that they seem to be building so many sets, but maybe the pro play was to take a leaf from the GOT and use existing real world period buildings... Old monasteries, castles etc. I guess GOT used the old town in Dubrovnik extensively, for example. I'm sure budget was the issue. But even the inside of a suitable church or convent might have worked better for the White Tower than what they ended up with.

Spoiler Warning

I think one realisation I've had is that I was watching the show as if Rand was THE MAIN CHARACTER, as he is in the books. But the show actually is doing a decent job of having him as just one of an ensemble. For me that really came to the fore when he (deviating from the books) warns Nynaeve that he's worried Mat can channel. And based on the (slightly odd) decision to have Mat and Logain have a non-canonical meeting of eyes in the episode, and Mat's subsequent comments, I think it kind of makes sense why Rand would think that. I'm hoping that when Rand's "big reveal" comes down the line they can make it suitably cool when he steps up and comes to the fore. In the books it's hard to describe how powerful Rand is, both personally and politically, once he gets going - he deforms whole countries around him. It'll be interesting to see what the showrunners make of that. I think they'll depict Rand less generously than RJ did.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278042#Comment_118278042

the books themselves did a good job, particularly in books 2,3 and 4 to have that person as not the main character. Book 3, for example, barely has them. So I think they have just take that queue from the books - and concentrated on the other story arcs that were already there. Plus, there are elements of the story they are obviously trying to tell in the TV show - the central question they are asking - that would not be possible without that change. Reading the books you know the answer from the off, its just a question of when people will find out or accept it.

Flinty997

I don't understand you. What central question is the TV show "obviously" asking? and answer only using what the TV show has explained as if you'd not read the books.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278620#Comment_118278620

Who is the Dragon Reborn.

Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene or Nyneave.

The answer is obvious in the books from Chapter 1 of the first book, basically. If they made a character the main character here, it would make it obvious too. They have ommitted pieces of the book story to make things muddier too - again, things that would have made it more obvious what the answer is.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278650#Comment_118278650

Spoiler Warning

It's completely changing Moiraine's mission and the fear the entire world feels KNOWING that the Dragon Reborn will be a man doomed to go insane. The fear around the return of the dragon is not being felt at all

Book question:

Were there any female tavaren?

Racking my brains now and cannot remember one ever being named as such

Re Mat/Logain

I liked this because im not at all sure Logain was seeing Mat! But clever of the show to frame it that way

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278979#Comment_118278979

But if the end result remains the same, then the fear plays into again - that is not to say I am happy with the decision they have made here; i'm not.

I would also say it never sat right with me in the books.

Spoiler Warning

I could never get on board with "WE NEED THE DRAGON REBORN" while at the same time most of the people want any male channeler dead. It makes more sense if the DR can be female, as then the two thoughts aren't mutually exclusive.

I would have preferred that they keep that element in tact though, as I don't think they needed an extra reason for the importance of Egwene or Nyneave - they are strong and important in their own rights, without having conjecture over DR.

billyhead

If you liked GOT would this be worth watching? I doubt it has all the violence and nudity of GOT?

BillyHasMates

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279553#Comment_118279553

The action scenes have been gorey enough. Not much nudity when compared to early seasons GOT.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279845#Comment_118279845

Apologies but just one more question should you read the books before watching it or would I pick it up as I go along by watching the series?

BillyHasMates

I would recommend watching it first. The series of books that covers the full storyline is 14 or 15 books (can't recall exact number) of in the region of 1000 pages per book and would take some time to read through.

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279895#Comment_118279895

I wouldn’t say reading the books first is necessary or will increase enjoyment of the show.

The series is very very long and it’s still a good read but even fans would say it’s a bit flawed.

I would have a slight concern that the tv show might ruin some great twists and reveals later in the books though, there was a “whodunnit” to several events to the books. It would be a shame to read the books and not have that but of course you could say it works the other way around too.

If you like GOT, the WOT books are significantly less violent. They’re more pulpy and less nihilistic, less grey in the morality. The TV adaptation has had the gore turned up, probably because it’s what they think modern viewers want.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279845#Comment_118279845

Not really. It is fairly tame in comparison.

I don't think this one is for me tbh. Struggling to find much enthusiasm to read the book aswell. Just seems very slow paced and I still don't care about any of the characters. Given that there are another 10 books after the one I am with some of them not getting good reviews I don't think I will continue with it. So I will bow out of this thread and keep my further negative opinions to myself 😉😉

Slydice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279553#Comment_118279553

I'd lean it more to a Lord of the Rings softness rather than the shock value GOT brought along.

Has the feel of them slowly building up to something so far. Nothing major on the cards yet.

Very feel of adventuring party characters on a journey.

Id actually say if you are enjoying the TV show not having read the books then carry on that way

Its going to be different and much more detailed enough in any case that you'll still get plenty from the books after

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118278650#Comment_118278650

I asked you not to refer to the books in the answer. So what do you do. Refer to the books.

My point was the TV isn't explaining things very well. Your response is this is deliberate so we are kept guessing. Which seems to be the same thing tbh. But since all the available options all come from (very handily) the same tiny village and within a tiny group of friends. I'm not convinced this was the only way to go, or that's it's very convincing or dramatic.

It's a bit like those Star Trek episodes where you know that any new crew members on a mission, is a goner for sure.

I probably sound like I'm not enjoying it. But I'm enjoying watching it brought to screen. I'm a bit puzzled by it though. I thought it would be more (visually) like Witcher, or Lord of the rings or something. I'm also not entirely sure the changes to the characters they've done have merit. I just expected them to shorten the story from the books. Not change the characters.

I'm not hung up on it being exactly like the books. I last re-read them after the last books came out 6+ years ago. At that time I speed read them. Skipping large chunks of stuff that I wasn't interested in. Having originally read them a good many decades ago

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118279895#Comment_118279895

The TV show is different enough that I wouldn't mix them. I would just watch the TV if I was you.

y0ssar1an22

its enjoyable so far. i'm not sure how many non book readers it will pull in.

one good thing though, it got me re-reading the books after maybe 10-15 years. nearly finished the great hunt (#2).

Flinty997

I suppose it's a bit like those Jack Reacher movies which I enjoyed. But the main character is very different from the books and thus the movie is quite different in tone from the books.