Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

deRanged

Notices are up around Midleton train station for planning permission for a greenway from Midleton to Youghal, with parking at all disused stations. I think it's a brilliant idea.

whisky_galore

Not really. Better if it was a rail line with all the tailbacks but the people of Youghal couldn't care less either way.
Flat and boring landscape by and large.
The PP is hardly surprising given our anti rail attitude here, in govt, public and irish rail themselves.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not really. Better if it was a rail line with all the tailbacks but the people of Youghal couldn't care less either way.
Flat and boring landscape by and large.
The PP is hardly surprising given our anti rail attitude here, in govt, public and irish rail themselves.

Rail line would make no difference to the traffic. Irish people are welded to their cars. Given how badly run Irish Rail seems to be they would make a bags of it anyway. The prices would be far too expensive to make it an attractive option. Especially as most of the traffic heading from the east to Cork is going through the tunnel in the mornings. Not much point getting a train to town only to have to get a non existent bus to your place of work.
Greenway will be utilized well I would hope.

whisky_galore

Well. Gonna get hammered by the EU for failing to meet emissions levels but hey you can drive your SUV with your 2.5 kids and bikes on board and have a nice little cycle for yourselves and pretend you're doing good.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

Well. Gonna get hammered by the EU for failing to meet emissions levels but hey you can drive your SUV with your 2.5 kids and bikes on board and have a nice little cycle for yourselves and pretend you're doing good.

I actually drive an electric car so you can remove the 'you' and direct your diatribe elsewhere.

pukeko

It doesn't eliminate the opportunity to open the rail line in the future anyway. Utilizing the rail line now for local communities (and tourism) to enjoy cycling\walking\running makes the most sense. Well done Cork Co Co. Fantastic news for East Cork.

deRanged

tons more info on the Cork Co Co website.

There are calls to reopen the line, or to make a combined rail line and greenway. I can't see either of those things happening, but creating a greenway will be good for all of the communities along the greenway.

chalkitdown1

Hopefully they do as good a job as the one from Dungarvan to Waterford.

If they could somehow then connect Youghal to the one in Dungarvan that would be SOME cycle.

questionmark?

Fantastic idea. Lets hope this makes progress like Dungarven and doesn't get held up like we have seen in Kerry. Any idea of timescale OP?

Bacchus

I'm conflicted by this. On the one hand it will open up a fantastic greenway within a short drive/cycle from where I live, which will have an obvious impact on our family life. The fact is, I would never let my children cycle on the public roads in east Cork, so this is a great outlet for that activity.

On the other hand, as mentioned, we need to be proactive about getting cars off the road. An active railline going from Youghal into the heart of Cork City would be amazing and would be an attractive option for commuters. Sure, you can say IR could charge crazy prices or make a mess of the schedules, but those things can be addressed over time. Far easier than realizing in 10-15 years that we need to a find a new route for a rail line to address emissions and traffic congestion.

So yeah, I've mixed feelings about it but I am looking forward to the greenway itself.

pukeko

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm conflicted by this. On the one hand it will open up a fantastic greenway within a short drive/cycle from where I live, which will have an obvious impact on our family life. The fact is, I would never let my children cycle on the public roads in east Cork, so this is a great outlet for that activity.

On the other hand, as mentioned, we need to be proactive about getting cars off the road. An active railline going from Youghal into the heart of Cork City would be amazing and would be an attractive option for commuters. Sure, you can say IR could charge crazy prices or make a mess of the schedules, but those things can be addressed over time. Far easier than realizing in 10-15 years that we need to a find a new route for a rail line to address emissions and traffic congestion.

So yeah, I've mixed feelings about it but I am looking forward to the greenway itself.

This paragraph is from the planning report available online:

"The status of the Midleton to Youghal railway is disused. The railway property is operated by Iarnrod Eireann and ownership is vested in Coras Iompair Eireann. Permission to develop, maintain and manage the proposed greenway by Cork County Council will be subject to a licence from Coras Iompair Eireann. The ownership status of the property will therefore remain unchanged and this
arrangement will provide for the protection of the railway corridor for future rail use and facilitate community and economic gain in the interim."

If there is a future requirement for a rail line then it will still be available. In fact, leaving the line unused and derelict will put it at greater risk of never being available again.

The Greenway project is a no-brainer in my opinion and provides the best public use of this land currently.

Outkast_IRE

Rather see a rail line developed and try and grow the commuter town / countryside option for city centre workers . We will never get it back from Greenway if this goes ahead, have we learned nothing from the lines closed to West cork etc. If you turn the land over to any other use you will not get it back.

This should be earmarked for redevelopment and try and push for some growth in the towns along the line.

deRanged

I live close to the train station in Midleton, so a greenway would be a fantastic amenity for me. It would be a brilliant safe environment to cycle or walk with my family. I am somewhat biased in that respect. I do use the train to get to work every day, so I'm also pro train.

Reopening the train line would presumably mean more trains between Midleton to Cork so might well mean an increase in frequency.

The existing trains are jammed at peak times, but Irish Rail don't put on extra carriages. They are short of drivers as it is on the Cobh/Midleton/Cork lines, meaning regular bus replacements.

I don't see any evidence from Irish Rail at all that they have the slightest appetite to reopen the line, or that they have in any way considered it in the planning of Kent station.

Would a train line from Youghal to Cork be a good idea? Definitely. Will it happen? I really doubt it. I think any investment will go into the road network, which badly needs it.

mordeith

The line last catered for regular passengers 55 years ago and we're still talking about what if we need it again the future. Better get use out of it now rather than letting it idle for another fifty

Edgware

mordeith wrote: »

I actually drive an electric car so you can remove the 'you' and direct your diatribe elsewhere.

Good man. Enjoy your five hour journey of 60 miles.

mordeith

Edgware wrote: »

Good man. Enjoy your five hour journey of 60 miles.

Hmmm, I must have a much more reliable car than you.

Roger Hassenforder

Iarnroid Eireann are skint.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/iarnród-éireann-nearly-insolvent-due-to-losses-1.3108548%3fmode=amp

IMO it's a great idea, thing is sitting there disused, and can always be recommissioned. In an ideal world we would have both, but the money fairies dont see rail between Youghal and Cork as being viable. I'd much prefer to see the money being pumped into a light rail for the city.

Cork Trucker

Opposition to the greenway has just begun (literally).

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2129427503793852

Roger Hassenforder

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Opposition to the greenway has just begun (literally).

https://m.facebook.com/groups/2129427503793852

FFS, Ireland...

I wonder are the local Greens and Shinners behind this. They're not exactly welcoming turning 25odd km (?) of disused railway, unused for over 30 years since it carried just a Sunday service to the beach, into a greenway.

c montgomery

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not really. Better if it was a rail line with all the tailbacks but the people of Youghal couldn't care less either way.
Flat and boring landscape by and large.
The PP is hardly surprising given our anti rail attitude here, in govt, public and irish rail themselves.

What tailback are you talking about?
I lived in Youghal for years and there's very little traffic going from Youghal to cork city or even midleton in the mornings. On a summers day when the schools are off it's a very easy drive.
I don't think there is a demand for it to be honest.

Greenway would be a great addition for the area in terms of tourism both domestic and foreign while giving locals an additional family activity.

whisky_galore

pukeko wrote: »

It doesn't eliminate the opportunity to open the rail line in the future anyway. Utilizing the rail line now for local communities (and tourism) to enjoy cycling\walking\running makes the most sense. Well done Cork Co Co. Fantastic news for East Cork.

Once a greenway it'll never go back, look at the UK and Sustrans. If irish rail and the govt ever woke up and had a change of attitude some greenway users opposition group would pop up guaranteed. A rail line that could have been the natural progression from the sucessful midleton reopening is gone for good because this was the easy thing to do, the lazy way out. But sure as long as it gets Facebook 'shares' and 'likes', who cares? No one will query the costs of course...like they'd love to do with reinstating a railway.

Wanderer78

Some of Irelands greenways ain't so green, as some environmental laws were broken in their construction, they can be a very nice addition to public infrastructure though, but should be constructed following strict adherence to such laws.

pukeko

whisky_galore wrote: »

Once a greenway it'll never go back, look at the UK and Sustrans. If irish rail and the govt ever woke up and had a change of attitude some greenway users opposition group would pop up guaranteed. A rail line that could have been the natural progression from the sucessful midleton reopening is gone for good because this was the easy thing to do, the lazy way out. But sure as long as it gets Facebook 'shares' and 'likes', who cares? No one will query the costs of course...like they'd love to do with reinstating a railway.

I live along the line and drive into Cork city centre every day. I would LOVE if there was a train line to take me in to work but it's simply not going to happen in the near future. There is no sense in leaving it derelict. I will happily enjoy the use of it as a greenway with my kids and take the chance on future opposition groups in 20 years time to a future development.

Roger Hassenforder

pukeko wrote: »

I live along the line and drive into Cork city centre every day. I would LOVE if there was a train line to take me in to work but it's simply not going to happen in the near future. There is no sense in leaving it derelict. I will happily enjoy the use of it as a greenway with my kids and take the chance on future opposition groups in 20 years time to a future development.

This is it really
There's little point complaining we want a rail.
IR have no intention of opening it.
Rather than letting it sit there unused in 30 years, they might as well do something with it.

Cork Trucker

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

FFS, Ireland...

I wonder are the local Greens and Shinners behind this. They're not exactly welcoming turning 25odd km (?) of disused railway, unused for over 30 years since it carried just a Sunday service to the beach, into a greenway.

I support the opposition to it, I indirectly know someone affiliated to it who contacted me to know would I be interested in getting involved. I’m not in that group though but I’d rather see a railway over a greenway especially along the N25 corridor was of Midleton and West of Youghal Bridge.

Outkast_IRE

Just to add it isn't Irish rail who would fund the line reopening it would be funded by one of the government bodies , as I am sure the midelton reopening was. So Irish Rails finances are not relevant to capital costs and government would buy the trains etc. Would it be difficult to put a Greenway to one side of the track trains would only be every 30 mins or so

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I support the opposition to it,

I've no problem with people voicing their opposition, it is a democracy after all, but why wasn't there a pro-rail group established years ago to get the train line back if everyone is so concerned about it rather than an anti-greenway group being established the day after planning is advertised.

Roger Hassenforder

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I support the opposition to it, I indirectly know someone affiliated to it who contacted me to know would I be interested in getting involved. I’m not in that group though but I’d rather see a railway over a greenway especially along the N25 corridor was of Midleton and West of Youghal Bridge.

That's fair enough.
I'd prefer a viable and functional railway (and a greenway).
But it's not happening.
So where does that leave us?

pukeko

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I support the opposition to it, I indirectly know someone affiliated to it who contacted me to know would I be interested in getting involved. I’m not in that group though but I’d rather see a railway over a greenway especially along the N25 corridor was of Midleton and West of Youghal Bridge.

I would rather see a railway too but that's not on the table. It may never be on the table.

The choice is Greenway or Derelict. I know what i would rather for the next 20-30 years.

Cork Trucker

pukeko wrote: »

I would rather see a railway too but that's not on the table. It may never be on the table.

The choice is Greenway or Derelict. I know what i would rather for the next 20-30 years.

I've been told, without formal proof, that the NTA have plans for reopening the line, they can force Irish Rail to do it, not from a financial perspective, but from an operational view.

1988 was the last passenger train to run that line, for a GAA match, running a greenway alongside the line, no issue with it whatsoever, there is a big difference in East Cork since that last train ran, the N25 is only going to get worse for traffic, imagine being a 30 minute train journey from Youghal to Kent, no traffic, it is a definite runner.

If the line itself becomes a greenway you can forget a train ever gracing Mogeely,Killeagh & Youghal forever.

What's this i'm hearing of a dwelling built on the existing line? I'm not aware of that.

Cork Trucker

mordeith wrote: »

I've no problem with people voicing their opposition, it is a democracy after all, but why wasn't there a pro-rail group established years ago to get the train line back if everyone is so concerned about it rather than an anti-greenway group being established the day after planning is advertised.

This might be what is needed to kick it into life again.

I assume if there are enough objections, then they can't build the greenway on the line? I'm liasing with some people on how to formally object to it. It's a rarity that I agree with any political party, but the Greens are bang on with this one (for once).

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

This might be what is needed to kick it into life again.

I assume if there are enough objections, then they can't build the greenway on the line? I'm liasing with some people on how to formally object to it. It's a rarity that I agree with any political party, but the Greens are bang on with this one (for once).

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

From Evening Echo 19 May

"Irish Rail conducted a feasibility study several years ago and reported that it would not be financially viable to re-open the Youghal line.

Since it closed, 7km of the track has been removed for use on a different line and the cost of reopening the service would likely be substantial.

Instead, Irish Rail is proposing to lease the land to Cork County Council for the Greenway."

Nukem

Always thought it was a bloody waste to have that railway/land lying idle. Glad to see someone is thinking of using it, in any capacity tbh.

A greenway would really open up the towns to cyclists and the likes, but also give them somewhere safe to cycle. The road at the moment (from a drivers perspective) must be pretty hairy when cycling.

On the other hand a rail service would service thousands of journeys per year and alleviate traffic from a constrained road. Would have reservations for costs of travel and efficiency for a commuter, based on irish rail (IMO). There is a massive under investment in rail services in Ireland and increasing prices will not change that - needs to be subsidized further to get commuters on.

Either way I’m delighted it’s moving

ontheditch2

The problem with Cork unlike other major cities serviced by rail lines is the hit and miss pubic transport at the other side to get people to work.
Anyone who has travelled from East cork during morning or evening rush hour traffic, notices the backlogs at the tunnel.
I'd say a majority of people travelling up the N25 are not going to the city centre.
During the winter months, how many people will gladly get the train to cork for work, then walk 10/15 minutes to their bus stop to hop on a bus to go to mahon/curraheen/Bishopstown etc.
Very very few.
A train would be highly convenient for those working in the city centre, but I'd say that percentage is rather small.

A greenway would be a great venture and a brilliant amenity for the people in east cork.

questionmark?

mordeith wrote: »

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

Didn't that 75 million figure include the upgrading of all stations and signals on the Cork to Cobh line as well as re-opening Glounthaune to Midleton?

mordeith

questionmark? wrote: »

Didn't that 75 million figure include the upgrading of all stations and signals on the Cork to Cobh line as well as re-opening Glounthaune to Midleton?

Not sure.

deRanged

It did, and platforms too.

whisky_galore

mordeith wrote: »

Highly unlikely. The Midleton line cost in the region of 75 million. The Youghal line is nearly twice that distance and would require more infrastructure. It's highly unlikely that it's going to happen and people objecting to a greenway is certainly not going to increase the incredibly slim chances.

From Evening Echo 19 May

"Irish Rail conducted a feasibility study several years ago and reported that it would not be financially viable to re-open the Youghal line.

Since it closed, 7km of the track has been removed for use on a different line and the cost of reopening the service would likely be substantial.

Instead, Irish Rail is proposing to lease the land to Cork County Council for the Greenway."

People never seem to question the cost of a greenway...as if, like roads, they cost nothing! But they'll moan endlessly about the cost of putting in public transport.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

People never seem to question the cost of a greenway...as if, like roads, they cost nothing! But they'll moan endlessly about the cost of putting in public transport.

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

marno21

mordeith wrote: »

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

If the public takes on that mindset it certainly won't happen.

mordeith

marno21 wrote: »

If the public takes on that mindset it certainly won't happen.

Yeah, because that's been really effective in getting it back up and running.

whisky_galore

mordeith wrote: »

Nobody is moaning about the cost of either. It's Irish Rail who said it would be cost prohibitive. The railway is not going to happen so people are just happy that the greenway is. Everyone would be equally happy with the railway but as it's not happening might as well do something useful with it.

There were those within Irish rail that didn't want to reopen Midleton, but Midleton is a hell of a lot more proactive than Youghal will ever be. I shouldn't think that all those who commute out of Midleton/Carrogtwohill would be pleased with a lousy greenway to connect them to the city. But the 'ah shur it'll be great for the kids' is the prevailing mindset amongst Facebook moms and dads these days whilst bussing them everywhere.

mordeith

whisky_galore wrote: »

There were those within Irish rail that didn't want to reopen Midleton, but Midleton is a hell of a lot more proactive than Youghal will ever be. I shouldn't think that all those who commute out of Midleton/Carrogtwohill would be pleased with a lousy greenway to connect them to the city. But the 'ah shur it'll be great for the kids' is the prevailing mindset amongst Facebook moms and dads these days whilst bussing them everywhere.

So you think these Facebook parents (whatever that means) are controlling the interests of Irish Rail? I mean what exactly is people's problem here. Irish Rail can take the Greenway back. It remains their property. If they decide to reopen the line at some stage in the future it will a lot easier to do that from a Greenway than its current condition. The public are not preventing the reopening of the line. It's a financial decision that Irish Rail have decided is not viable.

Cork Trucker

Any idea when we will get to find out what is happening?

mordeith

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Any idea when we will get to find out what is happening?

I think submissions closed at the end of October so maybe sometime in early January?

namloc1980

Railway to Youghal isn't viable. It's hard enough to get people living in Carrigtwohill and Midleton to leave the cars behind and take the train. Greenway will be good for Youghal and it also protects the alignment in a usable state of it ever became viable in the future.

Bacchus

namloc1980 wrote: »

Railway to Youghal isn't viable. It's hard enough to get people living in Carrigtwohill and Midleton to leave the cars behind and take the train. Greenway will be good for Youghal and it also protects the alignment in a usable state of it ever became viable in the future.

I appreciate that point but IMO, you'll NEVER get people to leaves the cars behind if there's no alternative.

The government spend so much subsidizing free travel passes for OAPs, could some sort of subsidy not be extended for these kind of rail links for employees travelling to/from work. Surely that would be a positive thing for reducing pressure on housing in the city center, reducing pressure on buckling road infrastructure, and (added bonus) meeting carbon emissions targets (at least showing the EU "hey look, we're doing something"). I don't really care if Irish Rail don't think it's viable, it's necessary for the long term and if it's made affordable and reliable, people will use it. At the moment, all we get is the "stick" with more tax put on petrol/diesel as if that will magic away carbon emissions. There has to be a carrot that people can move towards too.

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

pukeko

Bacchus wrote: »

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

I disagree... most people in favour of a greenway now are not in any way opposed to a rail link, or would be opposed to "upgrading" the greenway to a rail link in the future. It's the best use of the land at the current time.

I live along the line and work in Cork city. I would be thrilled if in 10, 20, 30 whatever years time it was decided to reopen the rail line.

(the rest of your post i agree with btw, there is currently no incentive for commuters to leave the cars at home)

Bacchus

pukeko wrote: »

I disagree... most people in favour of a greenway now are not in any way opposed to a rail link, or would be opposed to "upgrading" the greenway to a rail link in the future. It's the best use of the land at the current time.

I live along the line and work in Cork city. I would be thrilled if in 10, 20, 30 whatever years time it was decided to reopen the rail line.

(the rest of your post i agree with btw, there is currently no incentive for commuters to leave the cars at home)

If it's possible to develop the greenway but in a way that it can remain should the rail line open up, I'd like to see that happen. It'd be a best of both worlds solution. My worry is that if it's "one or the other" and we get the greenway, it'll be hard to turn people around to the idea of getting rid of it. The mindset now towards both proposals will shift once people have had a decade or so enjoying a greenway. Maybe I'm wrong on that but I'm worried that once a greenway goes in it'll be difficult to remove.

I also live along the line, and though I don't work in the city center with my current job, there are plenty of companies I could work for in the city center. Getting the train would be a real option for me in that case. I wouldn't be happy to wait 20 or 30 years though for that to happen... I'll be close to retirement! :eek:

BTW, I'm also very much looking forward to the greenway if it goes ahead. It'll be a fantastic addition to east Cork... I just think a rail corridor is the bigger priority.

marno21

If the greenway is built and the rail line becomes viable, the people in Youghal will want a railway as it is more useful to them and the people in Midleton will want to retain the greenway because it will be more useful to them. Then you have a divide and politicians trying to pander to both sides and you end up with a fudge.

Liam Quaide was on 96FM about the railway about 2 weeks ago and the response was very pro-railway.

We don't need greenways on every rail corridor in Ireland, especially ones that are of use. There aren't many rail links into Cork anymore because they've all been ripped up and I don't believe that ripping up another one is a prudent move.

Both the Youghal demand and the potential for a new P&R off the proposed N25 Midleton-Youghal dual carraigeway would be a lot better than a greenway.

The way things are going we'll soon have people campaigning for active railways to be shut down so we can have greenways.

namloc1980

Bacchus wrote: »

I appreciate that point but IMO, you'll NEVER get people to leaves the cars behind if there's no alternative.

The government spend so much subsidizing free travel passes for OAPs, could some sort of subsidy not be extended for these kind of rail links for employees travelling to/from work. Surely that would be a positive thing for reducing pressure on housing in the city center, reducing pressure on buckling road infrastructure, and (added bonus) meeting carbon emissions targets (at least showing the EU "hey look, we're doing something"). I don't really care if Irish Rail don't think it's viable, it's necessary for the long term and if it's made affordable and reliable, people will use it. At the moment, all we get is the "stick" with more tax put on petrol/diesel as if that will magic away carbon emissions. There has to be a carrot that people can move towards too.

Also, any hope of a rail corridor in the future will be met with even more resistance if a popular greenway is put in place and then threatened to be removed.... unless there is the space for both along the route?

There already is a subsidy for working commuters called taxsaver. Up to 50% saving on commuter tickets.