Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122976676#Comment_122976676

Great! I'll give it a spin tomorrow if the weather is decent.

jimbob955

do people use this greenway? Has it been a success? What are the pros and cons to it?

jimbob955

there was a meeting in ballinhassig last night that I attended regarding the proposed kinsale to cork greenway. The absolute hysteria and negativity and mistrust that was being said was mad. I was genuinely too afraid to say I was in support of the greenway I would have been run of the place. Please if you have 5 mins today can you send an email of support to:

corkkinsalegreenway@corkrdo.ie

info@tii.ie

cork@arup.com

And the website is here: where you can log ur actual submission

https://corkkinsalegreenway.ie

In the above I imagine the vast majority of submissions and emails are anti greenway and negative! Maybe some positive words can help also.

I honestly think this greenway would be so amazing for cork city and the rural areas to kinsale .

Please help. The anti greenway social media hype has gone up a notch the last few days, so any support would be great!

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123765901#Comment_123765901

It's heavily used, and even over-subscribed at times. So it is a success by that metric.

The major "pro" is that people come from far and wide and have access to essentially a linear district park for what are rural communities with nothing of that nature. It performs the function of the "local park" for places like Mogeely, Killeagh, Dungourney, etc. It's used for parkruns, events etc. A secondary benefit is that it works as transport infrastructure. I have used it in both capacities. Many people use it for their daily exercise. More still use it as a safe space to teach kids to cycle/skate/etc

A "con" is that it's not yet linked west to the city. Another downside is that it's oversubscribed at times. A secondary downside is that the station car park is closed at night, which prevents access to the greenway "for security reasons". The nearby Glounthaune greenway does see a good bit of nighttime usage, by way of comparison.

A tertiary benefit of this scheme is that it can be used as a reference point for stereotypical anti-greenway tropes of crime/drugs/wastefulness. People were very against it (and some still are). Much of it ran on a theme of "nobody will use it", "lycra clad", "nobody wants to come to East Cork", "waste of money", "bloody greens". Some ran on a theme of "bring back the train instead" but a lot of that was just a cover for general negativity, rather than being from actual rail users. A small cohort of enthusiastic real rail users would obviously prefer reinstatement of rail here as a genuine complaint too, but most don't believe it was ever a binary decision.

hans aus dtschl

Oh another downside is the road crossings. They should have raised them all in my opinion. I've cycled it lots of times but also have driven some of the roads and came upon the greenway almost without realising it: sightlines aren't perfect and better traffic calming is needed. I would obviously be very skewed towards noticing vulnerable road users, so if I'm not anticipating the greenway crossing then other people definitely aren't. All that's needed are raised tables and ideally zebra markings.

Another downside is people leaving their cars at the road crossings to access the greenway mid-route. I'm not sure what can be done about that really…maybe signage?

And finally, the chicane gates aren't as bad as they could be (they're well staggered) but I'm still against them because of the bottleneck they cause for 2-way traffic, particularly when you have them in short succession like on either side of a road crossing. Vertical poles are just way way better. It's not in the design manuals but we should start considering something like a mini artificial hill or something if we need to slow people down. Would match well with the raised tables for road traffic too.

omicron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123766233#Comment_123766233

Some really good points here, the only thing I would add is that despite the massive user numbers and general popularity there is still huge negativity among the general "less active" public.

nokiatom

There is a group of people in Youghal still fighting to get the railway back, that is not going to happen in the near future. Instead they should be fighting for Killeagh and Carrigtwohill to be bypassed. Not Carrigtwohill but Castlemartyr

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123766575#Comment_123766575

Carrigtohil ??

Or castlemartyr ?

But yeah , in the short term it's not happening,

I'd love to see a new station , park and ride and bus stop beyond midleton to link directly on to the n-25 , to serve the people of the surrounds of midleton - who won't go through midleton to go to the train station -

nokiatom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123767264#Comment_123767264

Sorry my mistake , Castlemartyr is correct, cheers

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123765905#Comment_123765905

Saw a post from that crowd saying that there was noone in favour of it at the meeting, with the amount of hostility that was obviously present that's not a surprise at all! Put in my two cents in favour in the form anyway.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123766233#Comment_123766233

Have to echo this. It's a fantastic amenity that's usually busy. I'd bet more cars in the Midleton train station are using the Greenway than the train.

I'd use it two or three times a week and there's always people on it.

I'm wary of anyone wanting a train to Youghal. Seems most in favour are the older generation or people wanting less traffic on the N25.

Most of the rush hour traffic is coming from Waterford and no one would detour into Youghal town to use the train.

jimbob955

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123767481#Comment_123767481

thanks, ya how can u expect anyone to show a hand in favour when it is an anti greenway meeting! I can’t see it getting built which is an awful shame!

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123766233#Comment_123766233

The Midleton car park is closed for vehicles after 11pm but a pedestrian gate stays open, well it was open when I used it recently after 11pm, I parked outside the car park. The other entry exit points are always open.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123767709#Comment_123767709

Thanks, i was told the opposite by someone nearby: that at Midleton station side it was kept closed. Great to hear that it's not the case!

BagofWeed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123771108#Comment_123771108

Its probable that after the last train the pedestrian gate gets locked but it's then possible to walk the track to the level crossing and get out that way. There is a walkway from the level crossing back to the road just above the car park gates.

It's very Irish to have the place locked up like that.

niloc1951

I've walked and cycled on the Midleton-Youghal greenway.

Unfortunately, when walking, cyclists arrive without warning, and it's alarming when the fast commuter or lycra-clad type whizzes past.

I've used cycle-ways throughout Europe, but here in Ireland, there seems to be some idea that giving a warning 'ding' with the bell is somehow not the done thing, despite signs requesting cyclists to do so when approaching walkers from behind.

Is mixing commuting and other fast cyclists with walkers and leisure cyclists on a relatively narrow strip of tarmac such a good idea?

nokiatom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123776217#Comment_123776217

These fast cyclists minimise as much weight as possible on their bikes and that includes the use of bells. Some do have them , others will give a shout when approaching people, other thick ignorant c@nts just whizz by without notice, there's therea group of these people out there that only care for themselves.

Seth Brundle

The main issue with bell ringing is that it often pisses people off when you do ring one or they get a hop and end up panicking into thinking they need to move out of your way (which usually isn't the case) but end up running like a headless chicken into your way (increasing the risk of a collision).
When on a greenway like this, I will pass pedestrians safely but I cannot control this inaccurate perception that I whizzed past at the speed of light and nearly killed them.

Is mixing commuting and other fast cyclists with walkers and leisure cyclists on a relatively narrow strip of tarmac such a good idea?

No but that's the way we build Active Travel infrastructure in Ireland. Cyclists are bunched into one homogenous group so because I'm trying to get to work quickly, I'm expected to travel as if I'm with a seven year old child who is on their bike.
That said, it is the cyclists responsibility to ensure they pass pedestrians and animals safely.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778412#Comment_123778412

That's all exactly right.

One other point I'd like to add is that a small subset of people walk three or four abreast on greenways, or have stretchy dog leads etc and take up all but a sliver of the available space but still have an expectation that people shouldn't pass "too near to them". This typically only happens on weekends in my experience.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123776217#Comment_123776217

You might not realise but the "Lycra clad" thing is a bit of a dog-whistle. For instance I'm often on the cargo bike but I am also "lycra clad" at other times. My behaviour isn't much different just because I swap bikes. Most of the "lycra clad" people are not going very fast when they're on the greenway, it's too dangerous for them. Pedestrians are a problem, but side-road crossings are just as scary. I do a similar speed on all bikes, just that the "lycra clad" me is hateworthy, whereas the cargo bike version of me is seen as "just lovely to see" and "well done, you're great" etc. I literally get smiles and waves on one bike with one set of clothes (with or without the kids) versus stink-eye when on a different bike with different clothes. So the "lycra clad" is a bit of an "othering" thing, where you can point to an out group of people who are not "us".

In terms of the bell "ding" it's noteworthy also that the "lycra clad" cyclists typically don't even have them, it's not a requirement for racing bikes. I sometimes slow down and use my brifters to make a bunch of noise analogous to a bell but even then people can be fairly indignant because I'm perceived to be "rude". So if there's a lot of available space, I'll often just go to the very edge of what's available and carry on.

On top of all of that, some people are hard of hearing, some people are oblivious to their surroundings and sometimes the headwind means they don't hear the bell or even understand what it is when they do hear it.

BUT with all of that being said I also strongly agree with you that mixing pedestrians and cyclists is sub-optimal. The issue mostly only occurs in and around urban areas, so it's just a case of pushing local authorities to provide segregation near urban areas.

And a primary reason the Local Authorities don't provide segregation? Because providing dedicated facilities for "lycra clad" is perceived to be a waste of money, so they get loads of pushback in public consultations. Whereas greenways are for "us" and comparatively easier to get through.

So my general point is: the bell is unfrotunately of minimal benefit, "lycra clad" people can do no right, and cyclists being "other" or an "outgroup" is partly causing the shared-use designs!

nokiatom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779034#Comment_123779034

My bell works wonders and I ring it in plenty of time

Markcheese

I always thought they should have a white line up the middle of green way , and "keep left " written on tarmac at regular intervals..

Shouldn't cost too much ,

A quick ding on a bike bell helps a lot - but if someone has headphones in , they're not gonna notice ,

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779091#Comment_123779091

If I could follow you on my daily commute, my life would be much easier! Seriously though I'm not sure how much you cycle but many people report the same issue and I've observed it myself albeit very rarely.

As an aside, I actually find my voice to be far more effective than the bell if I'm stuck behind people tbh. A simple "sorry do you mind if I pass on your right" has never ended badly for me.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779034#Comment_123779034

I take your point about 'lycra clad', no personal offence intended. I was referring to those 'serious' cyclists, not to members of cycling clubs, who think the highways and byways are theirs, and other users are simply a nuisance.

Regarding the bell ringing. When mingling with other users of a greenway, giving notice of approach can only be a good thing and should be encouraged. However, it does seem that the lack of courtesy on our roads extends to greenways, affecting both walkers and cyclists. I, too, have experienced the 'evil eye' myself, if from force of habit from using cycle paths in Europe, I give a 'ding' when approaching walkers or someone travelling slower than myself.

There is a bit of an anomaly in the thinking of mixing pedestrians and cyclists on a greenway; after all, for safety reasons, cyclists are not permitted to mix with pedestrians on footpaths. Perhaps, as you mentioned, commuter users should have separate lanes from leisure users where a significant volume of both interact.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779138#Comment_123779138

Apparently the white line and "keep left" signage doesn't work according to the design manuals unfortunately. Perhaps because we always tell pedestrians to walk on the right. I don't know the reasoning. But it's advised against, in the design manuals.

The best design I've seen is the 2-way cycleway and dedicated footpath beside it. But even then I have encountered runners who prefer to run on asphalt with headphones in, oblivious to me behind them.

There's no silver bullet, it's just a case of slowing right down and giving as much room as possible really

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779183#Comment_123779183

Yep, don't worry no offence taken at all! I got a shock at how I was treated on the cargo bike though, it's hilarious how differently people perceive me/it.

Definitely the general lack of courtesy is a major issue overall though. People cycling too near pedestrians, people parking on greenways, people parking blocking the sightlines at the road crossings, people walking taking up the full width of the greenway…even a small bugbear of mine is that one group organises a weekly park run on Midleton greenway, seemingly unaware of the fact that it's unusable for all other greenway users for the best part of an hour!

In fairness though these are all good problems to have. It's great to see the Midleton greenway used so much. A lot of people believed it would see very little usage.

niloc1951

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779271#Comment_123779271

I think those cargo bikes are brilliant, the 2-wheeled and 3-wheeled types, they are everywhere in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. BTW, is it appropriate to call the ones with a couple of kids on board 'cargo' bikes 🙂😉

Last year, I met a guy in Spain who built a lightweight dismantable rickshaw-type to take his wife, who had mobility issues, with him. During assembly, he realised he had forgotten to pack the passenger seat and had to graft on the seat part of a locally acquired plastic stacking chair.

Apologies to all for going off topic.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123780304#Comment_123780304

Yep again sorry to everyone else for the off-topic, but I'm weak for them too. It's almost unbelievable the attention it gets, and also the amount of time and space it gets on the road. Fellas in building sites come over to chat, people stop cars on the road and roll down the windows to talk. Almost every day I get a positive unexpected interaction with a stranger. Very expensive though, hard to justify the cost unless you're replacing a car completely. For me it was more a "midlife crisis" type thing: some people get expensive cars etc and I treated myself to the bike. But definitely still a "cargo" bike, the kids will outgrow it sooner or later and it's already used for the shopping etc!

Back more on topic, I think the next section of greenway in Midleton (North-South) is underway now, and it's getting some negativity locally while it's under construction. Hopefully that negativity will "melt away" a bit when it's done!

Markcheese

Maybe better parking near where the green way crosses a local road ( or just access in terms of a bridge crossing ) , must be a bit of a pain if you've a green way a couple of mins from home - but have to drive to midleton - mogeely kileagh or youghal just access it .. ( with your car )

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782753#Comment_123782753

They're parking informally now and it's blocking sightlines so need to deal with it a bit better alright