The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472006#Comment_121472006

Not 100% sure, I think it must have been the council engineer who told them they can't proceed yet as its not visually bad enough.

I had always thought you needed a core test done to get a % figure of bad materials so they could grade your house. Didn't realise they could grade it by visual inspection.

Technique

Yeah it changed within the last year.

Penfailed

The criteria changed and now it has to meet the damage threshold to avail of the scheme.

firemansam4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121458951#Comment_121458951

Sounds like me and others could be in a no-win situation then.

On the one hand tests confirm the significant presence of mica which means the house is slowly going to deteriorate, will be only worth a fraction of the value and probably would be impossible to sell

But on the other hand there is not enough visual damage to get onto the scheme, or you could be just hoping that one day the house gets that bad that you may be excepted on it at some stage..

I think it may be a case that we will have to wait several more years to see how things pan out, kind of left in limbo, and not sure even if the house is insurable or not.

Again that will lead me to my original question as to how long will the government leave this or any future scheme running for or will they decide to have a cut off year where they draw a line under it all.

NIMAN

Agree.

There severe lack of movement on the scheme to me is worrying. My house is also now just starting to show the tell tale cracking. It's 22yrs old and is obviously only mildly affected, so it might be another decade before mine is bad enough to qualify.

And will rhe scheme even exist in 10, 15 or 20 yrs?

Will the state have the finances to fix the issue? No-one knows.

This issue has been known about since 2014 or before. Coming up on a decade now. I have no idea how many houses have been repaired on the scheme to date, but I'd hazard a guess it's very low compared to the damage out there. I have always feared it would be best to get your house sorted ASAP while there is the political will, and money, to sort it now, as who knows what the future will hold.

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472006#Comment_121472006

You need the engineer report, even with the core testing.

Your house could theoretically be 50% mica, 50% pyrrhotite but if it hasn't got big cracks yet (that go in multiple directions, just individual horizontal or vertical is not enough!!) then you're **** outta luck.

firemansam4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474441#Comment_121474441

The whole scandal has just gone very quiet recently, kind of gone into a form of limbo now.

It seems there are going to be many mica houses, a high percentage that will never get on the scheme. And now hearing today more evidence that the outer leaf repairs just will not be enough, that any houses that required the work will eventually need the rest of the blockwork or even foundations replaced at some stage.

Think a lot more will come out in time and the government will do their best to try and sweep it under the carpet if they are allowed.

NIMAN

I see the Indo had a piece today that only 48 Donegal houses have been fixed in the 3yr old scheme.

Shocking. Considering there are thousands of homes needing fixed.

jj880

I know I said I wouldnt post here again but the biggest problem with this scheme has to be pointed out. The grant amount per square metre is nowhere near whats required.

It is coming NOWHERE near what people are getting quoted for rebuild after all soft costs (engineer plan of works, engineer sign off at each stage, planning if needed etc.), demolition and foundation removal are paid. I have heard of people breaking new founds outside their old founds to avoid removal. A smart workaround as I cant imagine removing old foundations is easy / cheap. However what that means is you are effectively a new build and have to build to 2024 regulations which is going to cost a lot more than 2007 regulations. People are being left 100s of 1000s short.

So yes people are getting granted "demolition". But thats just a word the council and housing agency are using. They can call it what they want but its about 60% of what people actually need.

The rate is 2,045 euro per square metre floor area. My house is 108.5 sq metre. Thats 221,882 euro. Nowhere near enough to rebuild after everything else is paid as outlined above. Even if I make it through all the hoops to get granted option 1 Im going nowhere.

So the Indo are stating 48 houses completed. I'd well believe it as these are people who were able to finance the shortfall to remediate. Its also a good indicator of how many will actually be able to use this scheme if it stays as it is. People are getting granted "demolition" but cant use it due to massive shortfall. I dont blame home owners at all for going ahead with the scheme if they can access the funds (they shouldnt have to pay anything) but what about the rest of us? I dont have 100k / 150k under my mattress and no way of getting it.

Im not in the scheme. If anyone can correct what Im saying Im all ears. I will need it soon though. Probably in the next 5 years at most.

There is supposed to be a review of this sq metre rate yearly. IIRC it should happen annually in February. It would need to be drastically increased.

NIMAN

The current coalition had made a mess of this. I think those affected are hoping if SF are the main party after the next election, that things might move quicker.

jj880

Was talking to a few home owners similar to myself. Not in any scheme yet but will need to demolish our properties in the next 5 to 20 (very optimistic) years and how to best approach the scheme and before even attempting to use it. If any home owners currently in the scheme could clarify any mistakes that would be much appreciated.

The way we see it (as the scheme stands) is:

- if you leave your old poured foundations in situ you can build to 2007 building regulations if you so choose.

- if you remove poured foundations you are classed as a new build and must use current building regulations. From what I hear that means no chimney / back boiler stove etc and a lot more expensive build in general.

What we were debating is when to test your foundations. Any time I look on facebook I see people with massive shortfalls between the grant and what they need to complete their rebuild as discussed 2 posts up so wont go over that again. Some are demolishing down to found level then checking foundations.

We came to the conclusion that we should core our foundations before even applying to the scheme. If they come back without any deleterious materials and high newton strength (and an engineer / architect / quantity surveyor is willing to sign off on them) then you have a chance of maybe being able to demolish and rebuild on your old foundations to 2007 regulations and re-use a lot of what you have already in your house. This in theory would make your house mortgageable, insurable and saleable once again after rebuild. Now some will say if the blocks are infected so are the foundations. A fair point however in my case I have blocks from multiple quarries (definitely 2 and possibly 3) and no idea where our foundations came from so would be willing to pay for foundation coring to find out where I stand before doing anything.

If foundations are rotten dont even enter the scheme if at all possible (until its drastically improved) unless you have access to substantial funds to bridge the large shortfall needed to replace foundations and rebuild to current regulations. Shortfalls Ive seen range from 100k up to 300k. Ridiculous amounts to even attempt to borrow on top of servicing a mortgage. I know I wouldnt get approved. Not a chance.

Also I really think this thread title should be amended. "The Curse of Defective Concrete, Pyrrhotite, Mica and Light Touch Quarry Regulation in Donegal Homes" or similar would be more accurate. Mica should possibly be left out of it altogether.

NIMAN

You make a lot of goof points there,and I'm in a similar situation to yourself.

We are registered with the council, but have never had any core tests done. From what I hear , the coring isn't even necessary at the minute, if you house is showing sign of deterioration. But I could be wrong on that.

Not sure if I mentionedit before, but I know someone who had coring done, but an engineer called to them and said they don't qualify yet for the scheme as you can't fit a euro coin into the cracks! They need to be that wide for you to proceed. So basically you are now being encouraged to let your house go to pieces, and patching up cracks is NOT the correct thing to do. Daft.

My own house and garage are now showing the fine horizontal spider cracking so evident in the lifespan of many other houses. It took a long time to appear (house is now 23yrs old) but it's heading the way I probably always knew it would. It's still slow, and I could still be sitting in the same house in 5 or 10 years time, but I know it is coming.

Quite a few houses around my location are now getting fixed, be that demolition or outer leaf replacement. Still needs to happen quicker and in bigger quantity though if a dent is to be made in the numbers.

On a side note, I have seen a few houses in NI around the Derry and Strabane area that are showing signs too. There is no coverage in the North of their potential defective blocks issue, but I think it will be a thing in time.

And yes, just talking of Mica is incorrect now.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122063132#Comment_122063132

Yeah visual assessment is my understanding of the enhanced scheme. Im not sure they will core anything in the enhanced scheme. I haven't heard of it happening yet. How they can visually assess whats in your concrete is beyond me but that seems to be the plan.

As for poured foundations it seems to me that its worth knowing exactly whats in them (cores even at your own expense) and if they should be replaced before doing anything. Could mean a difference of 100k depending on current versus 2007 regs and having to remove founds versus leaving them if they are ok.

I dont like the idea of demolishing my house down to foundation level then checking. What check can be done at that point? Some lad hits them with a sledge hammer? Not sure its practical to core them at that point and wait a few months for the results?

If theres a process for testing your foundations after removing the house above Id like to hear it for sure. If not Im leaning towards coring my foundations first to see % of deleterious materials and newton strength before touching my house...

It should be an end to end process also. Home owners should not have to deal with hiring/paying builders, engineers etc. and waiting for payments from the Council.

Technique

My experience so far:

• Got an engineer's report last summer indicating presence of Mica in my house. Cost was around €800.
• Registered with DCC Defective Block Scheme December 2023, completed their online application process including uploading the engineer's report.
• In February, after a lot of back and forward regarding additional information or clarification on certain items, they accepted my application and forwarded to the Housing Agency.
• In March, an engineer from the Housing Agency visited my house and carried out a visual assessment including measuring the size of the cracks. He was unable to measure any cracks which we had previously filled in.
• In April we got confirmation that we've been assessed with defective blocks. The next step is for the Housing Agency to send a third party to take thirteen core samples from various parts of the walls and risers to determine the extent of the issue and the suggested remediation. We've been told not to expect this to happen before q4 of 2024.

Hope this timeline helps anyone who's about to apply to the scheme.

jj880

Thanks for that. Very interesting. First Ive heard of the HA doing coring. 13 of them no less! I wonder do homeowners get to see any of the coring results.

So far what Ive been hearing is:

Homeowner engineer assessment ⇒ Enhanced DCB scheme application ⇒ HA engineer damage threshold ⇒ HA measure sq foot of home ⇒ remediation option with total grant awarded.

So that could be possibly be updated to:

Homeowner engineer assessment ⇒ Enhanced DCB scheme application ⇒ HA engineer damage threshold ⇒ HA core sampling to further assess ⇒ HA measure sq foot of home ⇒ remediation option with total grant awarded.

If anyone has any more guidance on what they're doing about foundations that would be very useful.

Technique

As far as I'm aware, the current scheme has no allowance for foundations. Any foundation replacement is undertaken solely at the homeowner's expense.

Happy to be proven wrong if this is not the case.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122066487#Comment_122066487

Thats correct apparently. I have a relative who has to demolish his house and he was saying that replacement of foundations is not covered. One little bonus is that small internal changes are allowed.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122066487#Comment_122066487

Yeah thats my understanding also.

I guess it gets interesting when you talk to your engineer / council planning section about the implications of taking them out versus leaving them in when it comes to plan of works / remediation plan time.

From talking to other home owners this can impact on what regulations / standards you have to build to which impacts more costs than whats needed to replace the foundations alone.

The other issue a few of us have is we live in semi d houses. Can you even remove poured foundations without disturbing the adjoining foundations? It would definitely remove a lot of headaches if thats possible. Or the sensible solution would be to allow semi d home owners to apply together and rebuild as 1 structure.

Technique

I think that leaving the foundations out of the scheme allows the government to give a lesser amount per sq metre as it's a renovation rather than a new build so doesn't have to meet the heightened requirements that a new build is required to.

byte

Mod: as suggested by @jj880, I've edited the title of the thread a bit to try reflect the building issues more than just Mica.

Thargor

Just a hypothetical Ive always wondered about, what would happen if a couple of walls just collapsed, would insurance have to rebuild the house?

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122072142#Comment_122072142

Insurance doesn't cover defective materials.