The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

NIMAN

Since this is primarily a Donegal issue (although some other counties may be affected in small numbers), it's good to see it finally get some national coverage.

There has been a shockingly slow response to this major issue by the authorities. People's homes are worthless, can't be insured and are literally crumbling.

A lot of homes near me are affected, and I do think if this was happening in Dublin it would have been addresses years ago. Pyrite anyone?

Hopefully all these people affected can get some sort of redress scheme. It's going to cost a lot to fix, but surely these people can't be abandoned.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/young-irish-mum-tells-how-13077958



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muffler

The government have been dragging their heels on this issue since they came into power / dance to FF's tune. Pretty pathetic considering the seriousness of the issue.

There were to be a number of civil cases taken against the quarry involved but I havent heard any more about this in recent times. Im aware of one firm of solicitors had 11 separate cases to deal with but that was years ago so there may well be more now.

NIMAN

I think it's fairly safe to say that the supplier involved will just go bust if too many people decide to take them to court, that's why it's so important for the government to get involved asap.

Some of the houses I have seen are really bad. I'd not feel safe sleeping in them at night, and I wonder is it going to take a house collapse and personal injury (or worse) before something tangible is done?

There is chat of a redress scheme in 2019, but it needs to come withiut delay.

IP freely

I see Cassidys have come out and said they are suing RTE for there program on it.

You really couldn't make it up...

muffler

It took them long enough to issue any public comment. In fairness their legal eagles may have been responsible for their silence.

NIMAN

It's fairly common knowledge they didn't want to ever admit liability, as that would give everyone the go ahead to sue them.

And I'd say once they start getting sued, they'll fold.

muffler

Is it true that Cassidys weren't insured? I thought I heard that mentioned on Highland Radio last week but Im not sure in what context though i.e. may have been a statement of fact or may have been an allegation by someone contacting the station.

NIMAN

Never heard that. What type of insurance would cover that though?

There's one thing for certain, this problem isn't going to be fixed withiut government intervention.

Irish Kings

Cassidys are not the only quarry involved, not by a long shot. Only the tip of the iceberg may be showing up at the moment.

Concrete blocks contaminated with mica silicate minerals can take anywhere from 5 - 50 years to fail depending on the % of mica silicate. I know an honest contractor that won a tender for a large project involving a lot of block work in Donegal very recently. He took it upon himself to independently test blocks from every major blockwork supplier in Donegal for any unacceptable high mica silicate content, as he is meticulous in his dealings, takes no chances, is very conscientious about the work he does and it's legacy. (Unusual these days I know, especially in the construction industry)

ALL of the quarries blockwork failed the independent tests for unacceptable mica silicate levels, bar two quarries in the south west of Donegal. These are from blocks being produced, sold and used TODAY. It's business as usual as far as the quarries are concerned, and to hell with whoever will have to pick up the tab.

Seems of Mica minerals can run through the rock formations in many areas of the north west, and if a quarry hits a seem, they have no way of knowing if they are not testing for it (or paying any heed to the tests even if they are testing). These minerals are microscopic and cannot be identified by the naked eye. The government (and by extension the ordinary long suffering Irish tax payer) is understandably very reluctant to bail out and pay for cowboy outfits in Donegal and they are not going to touch the mess with a barge pole if they can help it.

Depending on the % of mica silicate mineral contamination in your blockwork, if it's high enough, your blockwork will fail anywhere between 5 and 50 years of concrete "cancer". A house may look fine now, but may take many many years to show up, or it can start showing after only a few years. The deterioration rate is determined by the % mica present and the exposure. More exposed walls i.e. walls more exposed to wet freeze thaw cycles will show up sooner than more sheltered walls. It's pure pot luck depending on what seems of mica were hit in a quarry. One batch of blockwork could be ok % wise and the next one unacceptably high. Cavity wall wise the exterior leaf will go long before the interior one, as it is the exposed leaf. The only saving grace is the inner leaf bears most of the weight of the roof as the wall plate for the roof sits on the inner leaf.

This is similar to the Mundic blockwork scandal in Wales which affected houses there built between 1900 and 1950 until mandatory testing and proper certification of aggregates which I believe came into Britain in 1952 (not like the scandalous and wide open to abuse, "self certification" system that still exists in the construction industry in Ireland). Older blockwork houses in that area of Wales have to be tested or they will not obtain house insurance until they do, and they are graded depending on the level of Mundic present and pay premiums accordingly. Their insurance grade also effects their sale price whenever said houses are bought or sold.

muffler

NIMAN wrote: »

What type of insurance would cover that though?

Normal company business and concrete manufacturers products liability insurance

Irish Kings

muffler wrote: »

Normal company business and concrete manufacturers products liability insurance

Of which any claim is very easily voided by the insurers if the suppliers are not sufficiently testing or heeding the tests.

muffler

Irish Kings wrote: »

Of which any claim is very easily voided by the insurers if the suppliers are not sufficiently testing or heeding the tests.

Im far from an expert in this field but what can happen (it does with professional indemnity insurance) is that the insurance company would pay out but they would have investigated if there was negligence involved and if proven they (insurance co.) would then sue the indemnified company for repayment of the amount paid out in all or any claims.

m99T

Seems to be something going around now that cassidy's are blaming the supplier of the hardening agent they used for going off to quickly. Don't know if there is any truth to this, only what I heard and people do tend to talk a lot about something they know nothing. Just recently helped strip an entire side of a house so defective blocks could be cut out and replaced. You could drive a screwdriver through them, as weak as paper.

Penfailed

If Cassidys had used enough cement in the block mixture, it would've offset the higher presence of Mica in the aggregate.

I see Leo Veradkar is meeting with the MAG on Tuesday when he is in Inishowen to officially open the new Cockhill bridge in Buncrana.

ednwireland

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2018/1009/1002044-bad-blocks-donegal/

Redress scheme approved for mica-affected Donegal houses

The Cabinet today approved a redress scheme for private houses affected by bad blocks containing high levels of the mineral mica in Donegal, RTÉ's Prime Time has learned.

The scheme is to be introduced under "exceptional measures" and is not part of the official Budget.

The block defect is primarily due to an excessive amount of mica in the manufacture of the blocks.

Government Chief Whip and Minister of State Joe McHugh confirmed the Cabinet agreed that the Government will provide the funding to assess and repair private homes affected.

m99T

https://www.facebook.com/JoeMcHughTD/videos/248498399146930

Big man Joe's statement.

ednwireland

hope the manufacturers of the blocks get taken to the cleaners if they werent testing the blocks as well. (but i doubt it ) probably back making them now.

Penfailed

Brilliant news!

NIMAN

Great news.
Let's hope it's a large enough scheme to get everyone sorted.

NIMAN

Piece on prime time soon.

They reckon it will cost close to €1bn!!!

muffler

Just watching there. It will cost a hell of a lot to carry out the repairs but where is the money going to come from and how long will it take to secure payments? Its one thing looking for and possibly getting approval for 30 or 40 million from central government but to look for over a billion?????????

JupiterKid

Unlike the pyrite issue where large cracks were repaired in affected houses, I can see the mica issue being much more serious where houses will have to be completely demolished and rebuilt from the foundations up - that is, if the foundations themselves are not affected.

It’s a very serious problem as the blocks made from the mica enriched concrete just crumble away like sand. Buildings with these blocks are not structurally safe.

GeneticDeviant

Hey folks. Looking at buying house in Letterkenny. Which areas / estates should I be wary of in regards to Mica? Thanks in advance

NIMAN

Check surrounding houses in the estate, early signs are hairline cracks in the external plaster, often seen to run at right angles.

But you'll be getting an engineers report done if buying a house, make sure a mica check is top of your list of priorities, as the whole redress scheme seems to have gone cold since the turn of the year (probably cos all the money is needed for the children's hospital)

NIMAN

I heard a piece on the radio news today about the Local Property Tax and how it wasn't being increased this year.

Article said it was exempt for those in Dublin area with Pyrite damage.

Are houses in Donegal affected with Mica exempt too?

muffler

NIMAN wrote: »

I heard a piece on the radio news today about the Local Property Tax and how it wasn't being increased this year.

Article said it was exempt for those in Dublin area with Pyrite damage.

Are houses in Donegal affected with Mica exempt too?

No idea myself but Id think that houses here should be treated the same as those in other parts of the country.

NIMAN

Of course they should.

But it looks like the rest of us are going to end up paying more whilst those whose houses are rapidly increasing in price are getting let off

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-to-hurt-small-rural-homes-as-dublin-let-off-hook-37982005.html

muffler

NIMAN wrote: »

Of course they should.

But it looks like the rest of us are going to end up paying more whilst those whose houses are rapidly increasing in price are getting let off

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/property-tax-to-hurt-small-rural-homes-as-dublin-let-off-hook-37982005.html

I read that article and it does look like we would be paying more in property tax possibly...by way of increases based on assessed valuation.

But thats not the point you raised though and a point that may not even be relevant to the thread. You said that houses in Dublin that have pyrite would be exempt from increases in the property tax. Is there already an exemption for people here who have houses with mica? Are there any houses in Donegal with pyrite?

Sorry, but Im not up to speed on these issues.

NIMAN

muffler wrote: »

I read that article and it does look like we would be paying more in property tax possibly...by way of increases based on assessed valuation.

But thats not the point you raised though and a point that may not even be relevant to the thread. You said that houses in Dublin that have pyrite would be exempt from increases in the property tax. Is there already an exemption for people here who have houses with mica? Are there any houses in Donegal with pyrite?

Sorry, but Im not up to speed on these issues.

I think rural dwellers will pay more as they are going to increase the amount due in the lower bands.

You see my house was in a band of something like €100k - €150k, and its €225 annually for that band. Many rural house owners would have houses in that band I'd guess. So obviously the Gov will raise more money by increasing the lowest fee from €225 to say €400, and this hits a huge amount of house owners.

At the same time I assume they would leave the €350k+ bands untouched, so a lot of Dublin house owners keep paying the same as they always paid.

Exemptions are those with pyrite, which I think is a Dublin area only issue. Since these houses have major structural issues, they aren't asked to pay.

My point was that mica houses are equally as bad, if not worse. Some houses in Donegal are close to collapse I'd say, from some of the photos of houses I've seen online. I was wondering if these mica houses are treated like pyrite i.e. exempt from LPT? I'm not sure.

muffler

NIMAN wrote: »

My point was that mica houses are equally as bad, if not worse. Some houses in Donegal are close to collapse I'd say, from some of the photos of houses I've seen online. I was wondering if these mica houses are treated like pyrite i.e. exempt from LPT? I'm not sure.

Unfortunately this is the part that Im completely in the dark about. If all was fair in love and war then all houses that have structural defects through not fault of the owners should be exempt from LPT regardless of location. But will it be fair? Will mica be classed in the same league as pyrite when it comes to LPT exemptions? Questions for deputies McHugh and McConnelogue

Only chink of light I would see is that houses affected by mica will have much, much lower valuations than similar or identical houses in the immediate area and therefore wouldnt be paying as much as others if it all.

NIMAN

Some of the houses I have seen are worthless.
Just some images if you search "mica donegal"

https://www.google.com/search?q=mica+donegal&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB805GB805&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj69ZWIp7fhAhUM8IMKHb97B-gQ_AUIDigB&biw=1680&bih=907

As for paying less, there was a minimum of €90 for houses up to €100k.
I'm not sure if Mica house owners are exempt tbh.

RobMc59

NIMAN wrote: »

Some of the houses I have seen are worthless.
Just some images if you search "mica donegal"

https://www.google.com/search?q=mica+donegal&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB805GB805&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj69ZWIp7fhAhUM8IMKHb97B-gQ_AUIDigB&biw=1680&bih=907

As for paying less, there was a minimum of €90 for houses up to €100k.
I'm not sure if Mica house owners are exempt tbh.

Some of those pictures are shocking!
I'm looking to relocate to Donegal from the UK and have been looking at houses online for a year or so-I only found out about the mica problem by chance when I saw a house for sale in letterkenny which seemed ridiculously cheap-it said the vendor had had it tested and it had a high mica content.I was under the impression this is only a problem in houses built from the 80s on-would you think it prudent to have a survey for this regardless of the age of the property?

muffler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Some of those pictures are shocking!
I'm looking to relocate to Donegal from the UK and have been looking at houses online for a year or so-I only found out about the mica problem by chance when I saw a house for sale in letterkenny which seemed ridiculously cheap-it said the vendor had had it tested and it had a high mica content.I was under the impression this is only a problem in houses built from the 80s on-would you think it prudent to have a survey for this regardless of the age of the property?

You would need to get a pre-purchase survey carried out on any property you are thinking of buying and the presence of or symptoms of mica should be flagged in any such survey.

There is a Facebook group I believe that may be able to offer some help and advice but I think this problem started with defective blocks used in housing from the 90's onwards

NIMAN

RobMc59 wrote: »

Some of those pictures are shocking!
I'm looking to relocate to Donegal from the UK and have been looking at houses online for a year or so-I only found out about the mica problem by chance when I saw a house for sale in letterkenny which seemed ridiculously cheap-it said the vendor had had it tested and it had a high mica content.I was under the impression this is only a problem in houses built from the 80s on-would you think it prudent to have a survey for this regardless of the age of the property?

Houses from the 80s are fine, the Mica issue only really started in houses from maybe 2000/2001 onwards.

I would definitely insist on a proper check or survey before buying any house in Donegal.

The redress scheme should fix things, if it ever arrives. I have my doubts they will be able to afford to fix all the bad houses.

NIMAN

I see that there are some setbacks in the redress scheme according to local news outlets.

1) It is delayed

2) It is going to cost so much that it looks like home owners will have to pay 10%-20% of the cost to get their homes fixed

3) There will be no way for people who have already fixed the problem to claim back the cost.

Penfailed

NIMAN wrote: »

I see that there are some setbacks in the redress scheme according to local news outlets.

1) It is delayed

2) It is going to cost so much that it looks like home owners will have to pay 10%-20% of the cost to get their homes fixed

3) There will be no way for people who have already fixed the problem to claim back the cost.

It's a complete joke. Those affected by pyrite in Dublin didn't have to pay a penny.

muffler

Has anyone got any update on the proposal to claim against the supplier of the defective blocks and / or the quarry?

What a about home insurance.... did anyone have any success on that front?

NIMAN

muffler wrote: »

Has anyone got any update on the proposal to claim against the supplier of the defective blocks and / or the quarry?

What a about home insurance.... did anyone have any success on that front?

I think its widely accepted that any large groups of claims against the block supplier will just result in them closing the business, and then there is no-one to get the money off. They, nor their insurance, will be able to cover a fraction of the cost involved.

Home insurance, severely doubt that either. Couldn't see them paying out.

Only hope for some might be claiming off whoever did your structural survey on your house, if you bought one already built. For new builds, not sure if you could claim against whoever signed it off as sound??

I remember when the guy did the structural survey on my house in 2010 when we bought, he said that the only part of the house not covered by his insurance would be the septic tank, as he couldn't inspect that properly or testify that it was working properly. But he said everything else would be covered.

If I found I had Mica, my only hope would be a claim against his insurance. Hopefully I don't have it!

Penfailed

Penfailed wrote: »

It's a complete joke. Those affected by pyrite in Dublin didn't have to pay a penny.

It's a matter of numbers voting. More seats to be gained or lost in Dublin, so they get looked after. Justice or equal treatment for the people of Donegal? Not if the records of successive past Governments are any indication.....

NIMAN

Anyone have any idea what Pyrite cost the state?

I think Leo said they the Mica issue is too big to be covered completely by the State, as estimates say it could run to €1bn+ as a worst case scenario.

Its a shame for the homeowners, who bought houses in good faith, they had no part in the whole debacle, except paying their mortgages.

I'd say some houses will have to be demolished and rebuilt, so I'm sure you are looking at €200,000 --> €250,000 at least for some families. If they have to cover 20% of that, how do you think people are going to find up to €50,000 to put in themselves as well as continuing to pay mortgage repayments?

DrPhilG

Why are Donegal County Council using Cassidy's as a supplier?

NIMAN

DrPhilG wrote: »

Why are Donegal County Council using Cassidy's as a supplier?

Well I am assuming that they are now ensuring their blocks meet the strictest standards in terms of quality? I would very much doubt they are still supplying bad product.

And maybe they are the cheapest?

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Anyone have any idea what Pyrite cost the state?

I think Leo said they the Mica issue is too big to be covered completely by the State, as estimates say it could run to €1bn+ as a worst case scenario.

Its a shame for the homeowners, who bought houses in good faith, they had no part in the whole debacle, except paying their mortgages.

I'd say some houses will have to be demolished and rebuilt, so I'm sure you are looking at €200,000 --> €250,000 at least for some families. If they have to cover 20% of that, how do you think people are going to find up to €50,000 to put in themselves as well as continuing to pay mortgage repayments?

It's completely ridiculous to expect the homeowners to pay.

I wonder if something could be arranged that the Government pays for the repairs, and are reimbursed over a period of time by the block suppliers?

They did have a duty of care to their customers, afaik.
Wouldn't they be better off paying in gradual installments, as opposed to having their business seized to pay its debts?

Atlantic Dawn

The suppliers seem to be protected like the Catholic Church.

NIMAN

Deleted User wrote: »

It's completely ridiculous to expect the homeowners to pay.

I wonder if something could be arranged that the Government pays for the repairs, and are reimbursed over a period of time by the block suppliers?

They did have a duty of care to their customers, afaik.
Wouldn't they be better off paying in gradual installments, as opposed to having their business seized to pay its debts?

You really think the block supplier, a relatively small local company, are going to be able to repay hundreds of millions (at least) of Euros?

Penfailed

muffler wrote: »

Has anyone got any update on the proposal to claim against the supplier of the defective blocks and / or the quarry?

What a about home insurance.... did anyone have any success on that front?

The supplier of the defective blocks has already gone out of business and a new company, with a similar name has started in the same premises.
House insurance doesn't cover structural issues...

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

You really think the block supplier, a relatively small local company, are going to be able to repay hundreds of millions (at least) of Euros?

Well, since they're now (supposedly) gone, it's a bit of a moot point, but I think it should originally have been possible to claw back at least some of the costs, over a long period of time. As it stands, the victims are apparently being expected to pay, while those responsible just shut down, and reopen under a slightly different name, and they're free and clear. There's no justice in that.

So, maybe it's time for our TDs to introduce legislation to close those legal loopholes, and try for a justice system that actually tries to deliver - justice!

muffler

I heard in a roundabout way that the redress scheme has yet to be implemented. Anyone have any news on this or indeed what the up to date position is in general?

NIMAN

Well it has definitely yet to be implemented, that's for sure.

Meant to be the start of the year. Not much since.

They did announce that it would be too expensive to fully fix all the issues, and instead that home owners would have to contribute between 10-12% of the cost. This didn't go down well as you can imagine. People being asked to contribute up to 30k for something they had no part in.

ednwireland

highland radio tweet this morning
It's been revealed that the MICA redress scheme will apply only to a principal private residence, retrospective payments will not be made and accommodation or storage costs will not be covered. More on Highland Radio News in the morning.

Technique

I think that it sums up everything that is wrong with this country that Cassidys' biggest customer is Donegal County Council.