The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

DrPhilG

A question for the accountants out there...

If this redress scheme is going to cost €2b for example, could anyone calculate a rough estimate for the actual impact on the taxpayer, per person? How much of the average individual's tax will be spent on the scheme?

cruizer101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250710#Comment_118250710

So is there no discussion allowed in this forum that doesn't agree with 100% redress?

What is ignorant or ill informed about what they said. The money doesn't come from some magic government pot of gold, the money will be paid by the taxpayers of Ireland therefore it is not unreasonable for them to raise the discussion of how much is spent on the scheme and how it is spent and is 100% really the best option for all the people of Ireland not just the effected houseowners.

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251236#Comment_118251236

We are also taxpayers. We were failed on multiple counts, by the suppliers and the regulators. Put yourselves in our shoes for one goddamn minute. I bought a house for 100k euro. I trusted that it was safe and structurally sound. I paid for a structural survey and was told it is safe. I cannot get money from insurance for it, as it's "not covered". A similar house to mine was recently auctioned off for 80k.

The suppliers have been taken to court and are not able to pay. Because of the stupid ******* laws around liability, it seems the suppliers will not be punished in a meaningful way.

There is a petition to the EU happening today to get some goddamn accountability.

Every possible avenue has been taken, this is a poor county, despite all the claims of mansions up here, most are mortgaged up to the eyes.

Statements like "25k for a new house, that's a bargain" ignore the fact that it's a house we already paid upwards of 100k for, and will be paying for decades to come.

All the comparisons to buying a dodgy car, or buying furniture do not compare to the house you live in, both in terms of impact and cost.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251236#Comment_118251236

Other views are welcome.

The problem is that the majority of the dissenting views tend to come with a boat load of scorn, spite, condescension and accusations of profiteering etc.

The few who have come in showing an ounce of empathy even if they don't agree with the taxpayer footing the bill have been engaged without any issue.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251355#Comment_118251355

It still comes down to the fact that your fellow countrymen and women are helping you out in your time if need.

A bit of gratitude wouldn't go amiss.

I haven't seen any on this or the other thread.

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251392#Comment_118251392

It's a bit difficult to feel much other than anger that it seems every unaffected person outside of Donegal is either calling us all scroungers, lamenting that they don't own a house, or declaring that we're all going to somehow take advantage and have 400k mansions built where our unsafe houses were.

cruizer101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251379#Comment_118251379

Shelgas post was a suggestion of homeowners compromising a bit on the size of their houses and putting 20-30k towards it. You may not agree with it but it is not an unreasonable point to discuss. And yet the suggestion was that it didn't belong in this forum.

Shelga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251379#Comment_118251379

This is simply not true. I was not engaged without any issue. I was told to go to the Politics forum.

"Your in the wrong forum, there is another mica forum where all the ignorant, I'll informed, not interested in the real facts begrudgers and Donegal slanderiing posters are posting. Might be worth taking a look."

I was nothing but courteous. I have been reading into the mica issues much more the last few days, and am asking what I think are fair questions, considering the absolutely enormous burden this will put on the finances of our country, which are already in a dire position due to debt repayments and covid. I am acutely aware that it is all well and good for me, only reading properly about this now, when posters on this forum have been living in crumbling and dangerous houses for years and years, but this is a national issue now.

I do not understand all of the issues associated with this, and the legal stance as to who is responsible seems extremely vague. Posters on the Donegal forum do not owe me answers to questions that may have been asked before, but as someone else pointed out, what exactly is is that they want? I am not clear. And I stand by my assertion that €25k for a new house is a good deal, all things considered. You'd pay that in rent in 10 months in Dublin, which many of us chumps down here are forced to do, with no handouts or help from "our fellow citizens".

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251392#Comment_118251392

I'll be eternally grateful if this goes the right way. I don't think thanking random posters on Boards will achieve anything.

Do you expect people on the dole to thank everyone too?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251236#Comment_118251236

See DrPhilG's post above and read the mod warning in post no. 1.

I would ignore comments from a few others in a different forum as most are thread banned or forum banned from here. They all had the opportunity to post in a civil manner but choose not to.

thebourke

what ever happened to the people who supplied those mica blocks?are they not paying for this also?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251517#Comment_118251517

Mod/ Read post no. 1 before posting again.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251590#Comment_118251590

Answered many times in the thread and the answer is no because they had no insurance.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251517#Comment_118251517

Fair point, apologies the thread has been busy today and I didn't spot that.

You maybe did get the brunt of some pent up frustration so apologies for that.

I'm not defending the shot that was sent your way, but I can understand it too. As I say most of the dissenting opinions that have come here have done so in a very unpleasant manner. Including a month's long relentless campaign of **** stirring by 2 in particular before they were finally banned.

As you say though, you didn't bring any of that nastiness so apologies for lumping you in with the majority.

As to your question, there's a few issues and understandable misconceptions.

1 - it's not a new house. It's new walls basically. Internal fixtures and fittings, kitchens, toilets, sinks, doors, stairs etc are all to be removed, stored and reinstalled. So it's not like people are moving out of a 20 year old run down house and into a spanking new turn key package.

2 - I'm open to correction here, but although I think rent is covered under the scheme, other costs aren't. The cost of having all the items above removed, the cost of storage, the cost of professionals to install in the rebuild, is all at the homeowners expense on top of the shortfall already expected by the scheme. The cost of demolition and site clearance is also not covered.

3 - you mention €25k. That's very much the low end of the scale. As I say a friend told me today that his expected total bill is €95k. On top of that he'll be left with a house that is worth at least €100k less than the one he built and is paying a mortgage for. So the real financial impact for him is €200k.

4 - as for the question of housing costs and rental costs in Dublin, I'm not sure how that's comparable or relevant. What would be comparable is how the government dealt with the Pyrite issue in Dublin a few years back. Although the financial impact on the taxpayer was a lot less, the way the homeowners were helped was night and day compared to the Mica situation.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251517#Comment_118251517

The thing is, I'd rather pay nothing to have my old house (without defective blocks) back.

People living and paying rent in Dublin choose to do so. I didn't choose to buy a house that is falling apart.

I can completely understand people's reservations about this. The inverse is not true. People don't understand what it's like to live with this hanging over them. They can't understand unless it's happening to them. Attitudes would surely change if it was.

CastorTroy

Quick question for anyone who's started the process and was asked for more documentation. Did they acknowledge you sending the requested documentation?

I provided 2 proofs of residence but one was over 6 months old so was asked for another. I gave my car insurance premium which was renewed in June. But now it's still sitting at the "Request for Information" with a submitted status and hard to tell if they're looking for more.

I'm just thinking if they wait much longer, that will be over 6 months old as well and I'm running out of proof to send.

Shelga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251709#Comment_118251709

Thanks for that, I appreciate it, and understand that this is an emotive topic. I do try to think "how would I want to be spoken to, if it was my house that was falling down around me and my kids?" I am genuinely trying to understand what is a reasonable and realistic response to this.

It seems to me to be a huge mess (and to everyone else here I'm sure)- with everyone having different circumstances and requirements. If it is a case of reusing lots of materials, as you say, shouldn't that reduce costs by a fair bit? If it's mainly just new walls, wouldn't it cost less than €100-145 to reconstruct? I appreciate that the costs of demolition and disposal also add to the total, but if it's only walls really needed, as you say yourself, not a brand-new build, then shouldn't you end up with a surplus to cover these costs?

But when I hear people like Paddy Diver complain that the €10k allocated for rent while properties are being rebuilt ("That only covers a year- what if it takes longer than a year??")- can you appreciate how that sounds to people like me up and down the country, who have their own severe anxieties associated with housing, rent and security? That comes across as just finding fault with everything that is being suggested.

Shelga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251769#Comment_118251769

To say people "choose" to pay €2k+ to rent in Dublin is simplistic in the extreme, to be fair.

Of course you'd rather pay nothing to have your old house back. What does that mean in reality? What does it mean for the finances of the country? These are not unreasonable questions to ask.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251825#Comment_118251825

Both of mine were over six months old by the time I gathered all the rest of the information together. I submitted new proof and it seems to have worked as they're now looking for different information. It appears on mine as 'submitted' also.

DrPhilG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251911#Comment_118251911

The problem is that the anticipated shortfalls being discussed currently are already including those savings by reusing various materials.

Its not a case of facing a €20k shortfall, but you mitigate that by reusing your kitchen, doors, stairs, toilets etc.

I'm sure more estimates will come out over the coming days but I'd hazard a guess that the average shortfall will still be north of €50k. And again that is just the cost of this process. The impact of reduced house values due to downsizing will be a separate issue.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249035#Comment_118249035

Block maker and the council walk away scot free?

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247413#Comment_118247413

Updated to include demolition. This shítshow isn't getting any better....

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252265#Comment_118252265

This is what ive been thinking. Should be another column in there for removing and pouring foundations. If the housing agency are not testing foundations (theres no funding for foundations so why would they) then everything has to be ripped up and redone. Drains and concrete pathways too. This is the real scheme.

The headline of 100% and 420k is bullsh!t.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118250876#Comment_118250876

I think it's about 500 euro per taxpayer on average.

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118251236#Comment_118251236

Go back and look at what forum I was referring to. It's a mica forum but not the Donegal one. Have a run through some of the posts and you might see where my opinion of ignorance and I'll informed comes from.

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252335#Comment_118252335

Not to some. Alot of people think that every home owner is going to get a new house built up to a total of €420,000.

And this is exactly what the Government wanted to achieve.

And sadly there will be alot of begrudgers only to willing to take this as gospel.

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252335#Comment_118252335

I'm really worried about the foundation thing. I've been chatting to a neighbour who reckons our founds are very deep. That's going to be a substantial additional cost.

Thepoet85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252265#Comment_118252265

Im well priced out at that price for sure. Just managed to get a mortgage and no more so have absolutely no way of finding the funds to cover the excess.

Two kids and a wife to look after and I've absolutely no idea what I'm going to do. Tough to work so hard all my life to get a house to raise a family in, only for it to be taken away from us.

But yea, we're all just after big mansions up here. 🙄

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118252810#Comment_118252810

It's heartbreaking. I was quite optimistic that the new scheme would iron out all of the problems from the first one. It's just as bad from what I can see.

NIMAN

Just as bad, and potentially worse.

Was very interesting to hear the Minister on Highland this morning saying No one will have to add money to get their homes fixed. Once the new rebuild rates are built into the scheme come Feb.

I guess only time will tell. But I'd not trust many politicians as far as I could throw them. They had a massive chance to get this sorted yesterday, but whoever inserted the sliding scale at the 11th hour needs to be named. It has the potential to kill the scheme and any goodwill at all.

Good to see it is no longer news for RTE already. Such a massive story and a scheme which will cost the state billions yet they don't seem to care about reporting it much. Very sus.