Dairy Chitchat 3

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

Did it give you something to think about? would you be tempted?

I'd be tempted to go that way in a few years but I wouldn't be able to take the 20% plus drop in returns in the first year. The featured couple went from 387 kgs solids sold to 230 kgs sold per cow in the first year and back up to 330 kgs the second year and up to 415 kgs this year.

The calculated breakeven price was around 230kgs solids sold, just to give an insight to the kind of drop to be faced up to first year. That would be lower yields and cows drying themselves off as not suitable for OAD.

The plus would be less milking time, about 66% of the combined morning and evening milking times, better solids and milk price by around 6c/l, better fertility and condition score.

The negatives would be shorter lactation as the lactose would be higher earlier in the lactation. And mastitis tubes would be looking at 7 days milk withdrawl minimum as their prescribed use would be for TAD cows being milked twice a day so their use would be off label and probably need to be tested before going back into the tank.

Panch18

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'd be tempted to go that way in a few years but I wouldn't be able to take the 20% plus drop in returns in the first year. The featured couple went from 387 kgs solids sold to 230 kgs sold per cow in the first year and back up to 330 kgs the second year and up to 415 kgs this year.

The calculated breakeven price was around 230kgs solids sold, just to give an insight to the kind of drop to be faced up to first year. That would be lower yields and cows drying themselves off as not suitable for OAD.

The plus would be less milking time, about 66% of the combined morning and evening milking times, better solids and milk price by around 6c/l, better fertility and condition score.

The negatives would be shorter lactation as the lactose would be higher earlier in the lactation. And mastitis tubes would be looking at 7 days milk withdrawl minimum as their prescribed use would be for TAD cows being milked twice a day so their use would be off label and probably need to be tested before going back into the tank.

yep its the first year hump, or should i say dip, that i just can't get past

The drop is massive, I haven't worked out how we could afford to take that hit. after a couple years it seems to be fine, from what i have read.

GrasstoMilk

Panch18 wrote: »

yep its the first year hump, or should i say dip, that i just can't get past

The drop is massive, I haven't worked out how we could afford to take that hit. after a couple years it seems to be fine, from what i have read.

50k of an income difference between tad and OAD
That would pay for alot of labour or a big loan on facilities to make your working day easier to stay TAD

Panch18

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

50k of an income difference between tad and OAD
That would pay for alot of labour or a big loan on facilities to make your working day easier to stay TAD

It's your profit basically that's being wiped out - from what i see anyway. And i can't see any way past that in the first year or 2

After year 2 i don't think would be a problem

Like you say easier pay the labour - if you could find it

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

yep its the first year hump, or should i say dip, that i just can't get past

The drop is massive, I haven't worked out how we could afford to take that hit. after a couple years it seems to be fine, from what i have read.

The general consensus seems to be the fourth year is when you're back to your TAD yields. The timing of the conversion is a factor as well.

If you convert to OAD in a good milk price year, the hit on income is fairly bad.

If you do it in a bad milk price year....:eek:

Sacrolyte

Ur f***ed anyway.........

straight

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The general consensus seems to be the fourth year is when you're back to your TAD yields. The timing of the conversion is a factor as well.

If you convert to OAD in a good milk price year, the hit on income is fairly bad.

If you do it in a bad milk price year....:eek:

But if you stick with TAD your yields should be higher than 4 years previous surely.

Buford T. Justice XIX

straight wrote: »

But if you stick with TAD your yields should be higher than 4 years previous surely.

I was talking to 2 lads on OAD and they both reckoned not. They seem to like the ease of condition going onto cows and staying on cows and the fertility benefits of that.

One lad was dividing up cows and drying early and feeding extra ration to build up condition and found it a lot of extra work every winter on TAD. Now the cows are on silage and straw and calving down in the correct condition with no extra feed. About 200kgs of ration max per lactation was what he was targeting.

The second lad had older housing and was tight on feed space so better condition over the winter was easier to maintain than to put on. He had only one extra group of cows and they were BCS of 4+ so were being slimmed down a bit before calving.

I'm wondering if their tighter calving spread is leading to being able to have a better, more even bunch of calves and hitting target weights easier? And keeping the better cows calves, seeing as the poorer ones would be moving on from drying themselves off. The lady speaking yesterday was saying she saw little difference between the TAD and OAD yields of her better cows. She also doesn't cull heifers on first lactation yields but will on second lactation yields. Her bottom 10 cows had 8 heifers and 2 second lactation cows and both those second lactation cows were going to be sold on this spring.

So maybe pointing towards targeting those better cows for replacements would result in the same outcome? Sexed straws starting a week earlier on those cows and still having 2 rounds of AI to go in calf?

It certainly has me looking at different ways of doing things.

straight

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I was talking to 2 lads on OAD and they both reckoned not. They seem to like the ease of condition going onto cows and staying on cows and the fertility benefits of that.

One lad was dividing up cows and drying early and feeding extra ration to build up condition and found it a lot of extra work every winter on TAD. Now the cows are on silage and straw and calving down in the correct condition with no extra feed. About 200kgs of ration max per lactation was what he was targeting.

The second lad had older housing and was tight on feed space so better condition over the winter was easier to maintain than to put on. He had only one extra group of cows and they were BCS of 4+ so were being slimmed down a bit before calving.

I'm wondering if their tighter calving spread is leading to being able to have a better, more even bunch of calves and hitting target weights easier? And keeping the better cows calves, seeing as the poorer ones would be moving on from drying themselves off. The lady speaking yesterday was saying she saw little difference between the TAD and OAD yields of her better cows. She also doesn't cull heifers on first lactation yields but will on second lactation yields. Her bottom 10 cows had 8 heifers and 2 second lactation cows and both those second lactation cows were going to be sold on this spring.

So maybe pointing towards targeting those better cows for replacements would result in the same outcome? Sexed straws starting a week earlier on those cows and still having 2 rounds of AI to go in calf?

It certainly has me looking at different ways of doing things.

Grass tetany can be a big problem with OAD. Great cull cow prices though. It's down to personal choice but I'm afraid you're not going to get rich on either system.

Buford T. Justice XIX

straight wrote: »

Grass tetany can be a big problem with OAD. Great cull cow prices though. It's down to personal choice but I'm afraid you're not going to get rich on either system.

Cull prices are good alright. The couple on yesterday were extending the breeding season for another few weeks and selling the late calving cows as springers rather than as culls. Always someone buying late calvers to run on with some winter milkers, she was saying.

They are taking care of the grass tetany with magnesium through the water system and seem happy with it.

If we wanted to get rich, we'd be at some other business rather then this one:pac:

Castlekeeper

On OAD, one way to lessen the impact is to breed for it a few years in advance. A lot of people milk OAD for a month at the start and/or for the last 2-3 months of lactation, fir labour and lifestyle reasons, at a very low financial cost. Watching the yields of cows in those periods will give you a good idea of the individual cows and also the type/breeding of cows that suit the system. Then by talking to people with OAD herds, use bulls that are proven to work on OAD systems on those cows for your replacements.
This is a win won situation as the best OAD cows are usually the best TAD cows too, less so in the opposite direction. Unfortunately personal experience is the only way to develop a good herd of OAD cows, despite what the experts theorise, current indexes are only unreliable indicators of bull suitability. You could be a long way towards a suitable herd in a few years.
The other factors that lead to the recovery in yield can't really be shortcutted.
Higher fertility leads to more compact calving and more days in milk.
Increased BCS usually leads to better herd performance from lact 2 on.
Less culling for infertility leads to a more mature herd and lower number of replacement heifers which increases herd yield.
Lower COP and higher herd health and cull cow and calf prices (more beef) can all help.

On the issue of mastitis tubes, it's usually dealt with in the withdrawal times of dry cow tubes i.e.
I'm open to correction but I've never heard of a problem with lactating tubes based on using the regular withdrawal hours.

Castlekeeper

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

The general consensus seems to be the fourth year is when you're back to your TAD yields. The timing of the conversion is a factor as well.

If you convert to OAD in a good milk price year, the hit on income is fairly bad.

If you do it in a bad milk price year....:eek:

Another way of looking at it is that you'd have less to lose in a bad milk price year, go away and get a part time job and you'd be better off!

raindodger

went as well its not a one size fits all operation.
very much depends on things like debt levels and life style choice
surprised by the amount of younger farmers there
Also very much in favor of cluster flush system as any one put one in recently and how much a unit do they cost

Pinsnbushings

Went oad last year with our small herd.. Had about 15% cows which definitely lessened the impact.. Dried off a good bit earlier this year which meant November cheque was small.. Year end solids was almost identical as previous year twice a day.. We did feed calves replacer last year instead of milk the previous year which would need to be accounted for..
Was speaking to man today and came up in conversation that we switched to oad, said there were 6 or 7 in his area at it too, these would be older farmers in general not involved in discussion groups or anything so could be a lot more common than teagasc even realise.

Panch18

Castlekeeper wrote: »

On OAD, one way to lessen the impact is to breed for it a few years in advance. A lot of people milk OAD for a month at the start and/or for the last 2-3 months of lactation, fir labour and lifestyle reasons, at a very low financial cost. Watching the yields of cows in those periods will give you a good idea of the individual cows and also the type/breeding of cows that suit the system. Then by talking to people with OAD herds, use bulls that are proven to work on OAD systems on those cows for your replacements.
This is a win won situation as the best OAD cows are usually the best TAD cows too, less so in the opposite direction. Unfortunately personal experience is the only way to develop a good herd of OAD cows, despite what the experts theorise, current indexes are only unreliable indicators of bull suitability. You could be a long way towards a suitable herd in a few years.
The other factors that lead to the recovery in yield can't really be shortcutted.
Higher fertility leads to more compact calving and more days in milk.
Increased BCS usually leads to better herd performance from lact 2 on.
Less culling for infertility leads to a more mature herd and lower number of replacement heifers which increases herd yield.
Lower COP and higher herd health and cull cow and calf prices (more beef) can all help.

On the issue of mastitis tubes, it's usually dealt with in the withdrawal times of dry cow tubes i.e.
I'm open to correction but I've never heard of a problem with lactating tubes based on using the regular withdrawal hours.

Super stuff

Do you mind me asking keeper what is your cow type and do you find the breeding going in a certain direction? ie towards jersey

hildywildy

I was at the conference, it was pretty relevant to me as I'm starting to calf heifers in two weeks and plan to go oad.
I only have a small herd and am transitioning from beef.

I have done the maths, milking 100% heifers twice a dayit wouldn't pay me, get a man to do all the evening milkings, especially when you include extra, meal etc.

I will be OAD milking this year regardless, as i am working off farm. Next year i'm not so sure as my work contract finishes in December 20.

OAD will not suit everyone, but it has to be a lot better than losing your hole on beef.

Mooooo

What tad figures were they comparing to? The average supplied I saw in glanbia is 385kgs? That's very low. I supplied 470 or so with a young herd. Discussion group average is at 520. I'd be thinking 500kgs should be well achievable on tad and that should be the figure to compare to. Is 400kgs the target for oad? At 4 euro a kg that would be 400 euro a cow difference. Even saying 800kgs extra ration at 290/t that's 232 a cow, which may be excessive, so 168 a cow or 16800 for a 100 cow herd to cover the extra 1.5 hours in the evening milking

kevthegaff

Mooooo wrote: »

What tad figures were they comparing to? The average supplied I saw in glanbia is 385kgs? That's very low. I supplied 470 or so with a young herd. Discussion group average is at 520. I'd be thinking 500kgs should be well achievable on tad and that should be the figure to compare to. Is 400kgs the target for oad? At 4 euro a kg that would be 400 euro a cow difference. Even saying 800kgs extra ration at 290/t that's 232 a cow, which may be excessive, so 168 a cow or 16800 for a 100 cow herd to cover the extra 1.5 hours in the evening milking

Body condition, lameness, l
Better health I'd imagine would bring down the difference, would u hold 10%extra oad on the same milking block?

Grueller

I have a first cousin that has two blocks of land and is going to put up a second very basic parlour on the out block, 80 acres or so. He is then going once a day and going to milk in one parlour in the morning and one in the evening.
He will keep all housing at home and close down the outside parlour earlier and open it up later. I think it is an expensive way to be a busy fool. Opinions?

Panch18

Grueller wrote: »

I have a first cousin that has two blocks of land and is going to put up a second very basic parlour on the out block, 80 acres or so. He is then going once a day and going to milk in one parlour in the morning and one in the evening.
He will keep all housing at home and close down the outside parlour earlier and open it up later. I think it is an expensive way to be a busy fool. Opinions?

If he is organised and doesn't have have too many other things to do (such as cattle) then i wonder will he be any busier than he is now?

straight

Grueller wrote: »

I have a first cousin that has two blocks of land and is going to put up a second very basic parlour on the out block, 80 acres or so. He is then going once a day and going to milk in one parlour in the morning and one in the evening.
He will keep all housing at home and close down the outside parlour earlier and open it up later. I think it is an expensive way to be a busy fool. Opinions?

Hardship. Double the amount of fences to change, double the time spreading fertilizer, on the road all day, 2 parlours to maintain/service, etc. Less cows and more milk is the best way to make money but it's not all about making money of course. It must cost nearly 2k per year to keep a dairy cow?

alps

straight wrote: »

Hardship. Double the amount of fences to change, double the time spreading fertilizer, on the road all day, 2 parlours to maintain/service, etc. Less cows and more milk is the best way to make money but it's not all about making money of course. It must cost nearly 2k per year to keep a dairy cow?

Only 20% of the herds in Ireland selling more €2000 worth of milk per annum..

Average at somewhere around €1600..

straight

alps wrote: »

Only 20% of the herds in Ireland selling more €2000 worth of milk per annum..

Average at somewhere around €1600..

Was just thinking about how much it costs. Its bloody expensive to have them anyway and my aim is to get as much as I can out of each one. The way things are going every calving is now a cost as opposed to a benefit. Every calving is also a risk as we all know. Less cows - more milk is my plan anyway. In a bad year the all still have to feed and looked after.

Castlekeeper

Panch18 wrote: »

Super stuff

Do you mind me asking keeper what is your cow type and do you find the breeding going in a certain direction? ie towards jersey

For better or worse I use a low input system, that can catch me out on a bad year, as we wouldnt have the driest land or early springs, and on a bad year and can lose a lot of days a grass, but that's another story
I've four breeds of cow on the farm, roughly 20% HoFr, 5% Jex, 40% Nrx, and 30% Kiwi x off those. It can be hard to tell which is which sometimes
Because of our traditional system, we would never have bred or pushed for high yielding cows and any that came in inadvertently, fell out of the system quick enough. For that reason, I stopped using Jersey straws years ago as barring the odd cow I wouldn't have had the most suitable herd to get the best JEX, coupled with the poor bull calf and cull cow prices, which I traditionally would have done well out of.

My best cows every year from every cohort are one of each breed type.
Most OAD farmers are going towards the JEX with one man I know favouring the pure Jersey.
I know of some great results being got with high yielding holsteins too.
A lot of the reason for the Jersey preference are the solids plus low maintenance but it is also cultural. OAD farmers would traditional have been sympathetic to NZ systems and a lot of the data from the past came from there.
Some if my best cows are descended from a few Brown Swiss crosses I had years ago and I know of a few British farmers using Montbeliardes.
A lot depends on individual cows and bulls imho, but at the moment I'm tending towards using some sexed semen Kiwi X on my cross bred cows. I might try a few more Brown Swiss x on my smaller crossbreds and bring in a few as I really liked the old cows. I've had very average results with genomic bulls so I'm stopping using them and will either use NZ Fr or NR on my Fr cows.
Another shortcut on the breeding is to buy some replacements off a good OAD herd.

Castlekeeper

straight wrote: »

Was just thinking about how much it costs. Its bloody expensive to have them anyway and my aim is to get as much as I can out of each one. The way things are going every calving is now a cost as opposed to a benefit. Every calving is also a risk as we all know. Less cows - more milk is my plan anyway. In a bad year the all still have to feed and looked after.

You can make good money out if any system but it's much harder and riskier out of a high input one.

Castlekeeper

hildywildy wrote: »

I was at the conference, it was pretty relevant to me as I'm starting to calf heifers in two weeks and plan to go oad.
I only have a small herd and am transitioning from beef.

I have done the maths, milking 100% heifers twice a dayit wouldn't pay me, get a man to do all the evening milkings, especially when you include extra, meal etc.

I will be OAD milking this year regardless, as i am working off farm. Next year i'm not so sure as my work contract finishes in December 20.

OAD will not suit everyone, but it has to be a lot better than losing your hole on beef.

You won't have much milk out of all heifers on OAD, esp if not from aOAD herd, so just don't budget on a big margin. The plus side is that, given a fair chance, they'll all go back in-calf in good time, be in good condition and rearing to go in their second lactation without any special treatment. Best of luck with it.

Whatever about counting the pennies, OAD is profitable and turns dairy farming into one of the best jobs going, very few downsides.

mahoney_j

Castlekeeper wrote: »

You won't have much milk out of all heifers on OAD, esp if not from aOAD herd, so just don't budget on a big margin. The plus side is that, given a fair chance, they'll all go back in-calf in good time, be in good condition and rearing to go in their second lactation without any special treatment. Best of luck with it.

Whatever about counting the pennies, OAD is profitable and turns dairy farming into one of the best jobs going, very few downsides.

No doubt it’s profitable ,not convinced more profitable than tad tho and I certainly see it as an option later in life If help scarce or no successor or if bills /drawings are low

Mooooo

kevthegaff wrote: »

Body condition, lameness, l
Better health I'd imagine would bring down the difference, would u hold 10%extra oad on the same milking block?

Culling is used to get the correct oad cow, if the same level of culling was used to to get the correct tad cow the first points would be more. If nitrates levels are changing stocking 10% extra may not be possible. It's a solution perhaps for lifestyle reasons but don't think it would be more profitable. Overall

Injuryprone

https://youtu.be/U1Z3KTFn2fw

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

Culling is used to get the correct oad cow, if the same level of culling was used to to get the correct tad cow the first points would be more. If nitrates levels are changing stocking 10% extra may not be possible. It's a solution perhaps for lifestyle reasons but don't think it would be more profitable. Overall

I think it all depends on what the limiting input is. Once you try to maximise the limiting input, you're onto a winner.

For a lot of lads on OAD, time is their limiting input. Different strokes for different folks, I think.