Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker **Spoilers from post 2076**

RayCun

tigger123 wrote: »

That he was the real villain behind it all in the new films would be such a great development.

No, that would be terrible.

The heart of this trilogy so far has been the Ren/Rey conflict. Abrams is already close to just replaying bits from the older movies. Dragging up a bad guy from the prequels would be drowning the latest trilogy in a vat of nostalgia.

Inviere

RayCun wrote: »

Dragging up a bad guy from the prequels would be drowning the latest trilogy in a vat of nostalgia.

He's been the bad-guy for six of the eight films thus far, it's hardly a nostalgia grab to bring him back imo. I'm with the previous poster, I think it'd solidify the nine films into one large saga, depending on how it's done.

RayCun

Inviere wrote: »

He's been the bad-guy for six of the eight films thus far, it's hardly a nostalgia grab to bring him back imo. I'm with the previous poster, I think it'd solidify the nine films into one large saga, depending on how it's done.

He was the bad guy for the prequels, and RotJ.
He was barely on screen for the first two movies.

And in the original trilogy, the conflict was between Vader and Skywalker. The emperor was there for Vader to turn against at the end and redeem himself.

In the latest trilogy we've already had that moment. Ren turned against Snoke... and decided that didn't mean he had to become "one of the good guys". Just as Rey (and Luke) decided that she didn't have to be "a jedi" to do the right thing. If it turns out that this was all a plot by the big bad Sith, it's just pushing the reset button.

sky88

cheering for a movie is the same as cheering at sports dont find it cringy at all

Inviere

RayCun wrote: »

He was the bad guy for the prequels, and RotJ.
He was barely on screen for the first two movies.

Whether we see him on screen, or just hear his name though, he's the main bad guy in terms of the story. Yes Vader was the antagonist for most of the original trilogy, but Palpatine has been sitting in or near the throne for six movies out of eight thus far.

And in the original trilogy, the conflict was between Vader and Skywalker. The emperor was there for Vader to turn against at the end and redeem himself.

Likewise, it could play out that way in IX, the conflict will be between Rey & Ren, but with Palpatine having some presence to it.

In the latest trilogy we've already had that moment. Ren turned against Snoke... and decided that didn't mean he had to become "one of the good guys". Just as Rey (and Luke) decided that she didn't have to be "a jedi" to do the right thing. If it turns out that this was all a plot by the big bad Sith, it's just pushing the reset button.

I don't think Ren 'turned' at all, I think his killing of Snoke was just more internal strife in his battle to purge the light from himself. Isn't there much in the lore of Sith killing their masters? Sure, he's still conflicted, but he hasn't turned and then changed his mind again. The strife continues, and it'll come down to Ren & Rey again one last time.

RayCun

Inviere wrote: »

I don't think Ren 'turned' at all, I think his killing of Snoke was just more internal strife in his battle to purge the light from himself. Isn't there much in the lore of Sith killing their masters? Sure, he's still conflicted, but he hasn't turned and then changed his mind again. The strife continues, and it'll come down to Ren & Rey again one last time.

I didn't mean "turned" as from darkness to light, or whatever.

"Turned against" - realised that Snoke was negging him, decided he wasn't taking orders any more

And this is the thing, Rey understands that she has darkness within her, but chooses to help her friends. Ren has light within him, but beats it down. The last film moved beyond noble Jedi and evil Sith and the all-important Skywalkers. The Force is a thing that lots of people are connected to, and they aren't just good or evil any more than the Force is.

But yeah, let's bring back Palpatine, because god forbid anything might do more than recapitulate the things we liked as kids.

Inviere

RayCun wrote: »

And this is the thing, Rey understands that she has darkness within her, but chooses to help her friends. Ren has light within him, but beats it down. The last film moved beyond noble Jedi and evil Sith and the all-important Skywalkers. The Force is a thing that lots of people are connected to, and they aren't just good or evil any more than the Force is.

I felt RotJ actually handled that very well, waaay before TLJ. "I can feel your anger growing", "Use your hatred", and so forth, when the Emperor was trying to turn Luke. We could see him struggle, we seen him lose control for a moment ("Your hate has made you powerful"), but yet he chose to remain true to himself. For me, the Saga has never portrayed that force users were merely good or evil, and it already has acknowledged that good guys can have darkness within, and bad guys can have light within.

But yeah, let's bring back Palpatine, because god forbid anything might do more than recapitulate the things we liked as kids.

Meh, I'm open to anything really. For me, I've thoroughly enjoyed what Disney have done with TFA and TLJ in particular (which I rewatched for the first time yesterday, and for me, it's an outstanding SW film). I'm not saying I'd accept any old shite, I've a strong disliking of AotC, but what Disney have done is infinitely better than what Lucas could have done.

We'll get different directions in Star Wars from Disney in due course (after the hiatus), they're not going to be radical with the final film of a nine film saga at this point. The Rian Johnson trilogy is there, which I feel will really allow them to break free of the shackles, and go to town.

RayCun

Inviere wrote: »

I felt RotJ actually handled that very well, waaay before TLJ. "I can feel your anger growing", "Use your hatred", and so forth, when the Emperor was trying to turn Luke. We could see him struggle, we seen him lose control for a moment ("Your hate has made you powerful"), but yet he chose to remain true to himself. For me, the Saga has never portrayed that force users were merely good or evil, and it already has acknowledged that good guys can have darkness within, and bad guys can have light within.

But if you're a Jedi you are good and if you are a Sith you are evil. And Rey (and Luke) recognises that this is a very limited way of looking at things.

If it turns out that all the bad things were happening because of the Sith - naturally, because they're evil! - that's a real step back.

Inviere

RayCun wrote: »

But if you're a Jedi you are good and if you are a Sith you are evil. And Rey (and Luke) recognises that this is a very limited way of looking at things.

If it turns out that all the bad things were happening because of the Sith - naturally, because they're evil! - that's a real step back.

Well they're (Jedi & Sith) both forms of religious belief and outlook, so naturally those aligned to either side are going to have a particular approach to how they use the force no?

For me, Luke's "It's time for the Jedi to end" meant that for true balance in the force, there should be nobody using it because it always seems to attract sides, leading to conflict/unbalance. That was on the back of his failure to teach Ben, so there could have been an element of self flagellation going to too.

Could Star Wars do more to show us a more 'grey' side to the Force? Sure. The main Saga though is and always has been about Skywalkers, Jedi, Sith, and Good Versus Evil. I'm fine with it finishing up that way, and happy for different directions later on in other films.

Sad Professor

RayCun, I don't agree that TLJ moved beyond the Jedi and Sith. In fact, I think that's possibly a misreading of the film. Yes, Kylo talks about rejecting the past/Sith and Luke talks about moving beyond the good/dark side and not wanting to be a Jedi etc, but consider the contexts in which they say these things and where this takes them.

Only grouchy Luke wants to end the Jedi as part of his absurd plan to just sit out the war and hope everything sorts itself out. In the end he actually embraces being a Jedi when he goes to confront Kylo, saying he will not be the last Jedi.

Similarly, Kylo's rejection of the Sith is only part of his offer to Rey that they form a union and rule the galaxy together, an offer which Rey rejects. Without Rey I don't think Kylo can be free of the past. Look at what happened to Vader after Luke rejects his offer to join him and kill the Emperor in TESB - he's reduced to being the Emperor's lap dog in ROTJ. He couldn't do it alone.

Unlike Vader, Kylo managed to kill Snoke with Rey's help, which means he shouldn't be subordinate to anyone including the Emperor in the next film and if he is I'll be annoyed, but I still don't think he's truly free of them either. So there is potentially a justified role for Palps and the Sith in the film provided it's a limited one.

RayCun

Inviere wrote: »

For me, Luke's "It's time for the Jedi to end" meant that for true balance in the force, there should be nobody using it because it always seems to attract sides, leading to conflict/unbalance.

I think a better reading is that he thinks the Jedi order should end. People will still use the force without the order - Rey obviously, and the kid in the stable - and it's not like he can stop that. It's part of nature, part of the universe. Nor is he shown to try.

But he can choose whether or not to train new Jedi, whether or not to pass on the Jedi teachings. And he chooses not to, because he thinks the order should end.

And part of why he thinks that, I would suggest the movie is saying, is because Jedi vs Sith divides something that isn't/shouldn't be divided. Dark and light it's all the same force.

NIMAN

pixelburp wrote: »

Americans, especially film & convention audiences, are not shy about vocalising their enthusiasm. They are the ones who'll applaud at the end of a film after all.

But at the same time, what's wrong with maintaining a little childish enthusiasm for a hobby or pastime anyway? Whooping like that isn't my bag, but I don't look down on any adult who has remembered how to enjoy the little things in the way we used to as children.

Theres an awful preview clip of The Mandalorian out there, its in the Television Forum.

You should hear the voices of the folks in the theatre watching that.

RayCun

Sad Professor wrote: »

Only grouchy Luke wants to end the Jedi as part of his absurd plan to just sit out the war and hope everything sorts itself out. In the end he actually embraces being a Jedi when he goes to confront Kylo, saying he will not be the last Jedi.

I don't think that's his plan. I don't think he has a plan. He's done with plans (at the start of the movie).

And the sacred Jedi texts are burned by Joda, which is a fairly definitive way of saying the Jedi order should end.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Similarly, Kylo's rejection of the Sith is only part of his offer to Rey that they form a union and rule the galaxy together, an offer which Rey rejects. Without Rey I don't think Kylo can be free of the past.

But he has never been a Sith, and at the end of that movie all of the Sith are dead. There's no reason to think he wants to become a Sith.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Look at what happened to Vader after Luke rejects his offer to join him and kill the Emperor in TESB - he's reduced to being the Emperor's lap dog in ROTJ.

He was that already, surely?

Tony EH

NIMAN wrote: »

To be fair to those whooping and cheering, it is America after all (I assume this was in the US). Americans have form. I imagine that was a hall full of comic book guy characters from the Simpsons.

I myself was a massive SW nerd when I was younger and the initial films were out. Thing is, I'm a grown up adult now, and stopped acting the eejit decades ago.

Enough said.

pixelburp

NIMAN wrote: »

Theres an awful preview clip of The Mandalorian out there, its in the Television Forum.

You should hear the voices of the folks in the theatre watching that.

I have seen it, and stick to my previous comment. The whooping and cheering is a bit beyond me, but ... *shrug* I can see why the first live-action Star Wars TV series might engender a little enthusiasm in those still deeply committed to Star Wars.

Plus, these conventions by their very nature are always going to attract the 'Ultras', to borrow a football term.

There are worse obsessions in the world

Sad Professor

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think that's his plan. I don't think he has a plan. He's done with plans (at the start of the movie).

And the sacred Jedi texts are burned by Joda, which is a fairly definitive way of saying the Jedi order should end.

Sometimes not having a plan is a plan, especially when (like Luke) you have whole bunch of carefully prepared justifications for it.

And the Jedi texts aren't burned. Rey took them. You see them on the Millennium Falcon at the end. When Luke expresses regret for burning them, Yoda tells Luke Rey has everything she needs.

But he has never been a Sith, and at the end of that movie all of the Sith are dead. There's no reason to think he wants to become a Sith.

He may not be a Sith but he's a Vader fanboy and Vader was a Sith. And while we don't know what Snoke's connection was to the Sith, there surely was some connection. If Kylo thinks he's washing his hands of that legacy just by killing Snoke he's deluding himself, just as Vader did.

He was that already, surely?

Not in TESB when he was trying to convince Luke to help him kill the Emperor.

Beechwoodspark

Darth sidious v kylo and ray in the final fight I’d say

Hector Savage

pixelburp wrote: »

I have seen it, and stick to my previous comment. The whooping and cheering is a bit beyond me, but ... *shrug* I can see why the first live-action Star Wars TV series might engender a little enthusiasm in those still deeply committed to Star Wars.

Plus, these conventions by their very nature are always going to attract the 'Ultras', to borrow a football term.

There are worse obsessions in the world

It's not just that they are American, it seems childhood is going on and on as late as the 30s some research is showing.
Look at this utter f*cking loser for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riUI5IPQIEY&t=3s

Crying !!! FFS!!

pixelburp

Hector Savage wrote: »

It's not just that they are American, it seems childhood is going on and on as late as the 30s some research is showing.
Look at this utter f*cking loser for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riUI5IPQIEY&t=3s

Crying !!! FFS!!

It's YouTube, you honestly think these 'reaction' videos are real & genuine? Half of them are about as legitimate as a 9 euro note and made precisely for notoriety or viral sharing. In the era of Pewdiepie and Logan Paul, you take these with a grain of salt.

40+ years ago men in their 30s would be pouring their screaming, obsessive energies into the football terraces, train sets etc, for instance (heck Nick Hornby managed to write a whole book about it), the only difference between then and now is that maybe solitary hobby has become something you share on social media. There's definitely a weirdly competitive edge to the simple pleasure of hobbies that I am not onboard for sure.

And even if the above guy is genuine... ? Again, so what? Total overreaction & overemotional towards a trailer, but he's harmless. I should hope you are completely beyond reproach...

Sure I can think of people who'd judge both of us as 'utter f*cking losers' for posting on an internet forum

Hector Savage

pixelburp wrote: »

It's YouTube, you honestly think these 'reaction' videos are real & genuine? Half of them are about as legitimate as a 9 euro note and made precisely for notoriety or viral sharing. In the era of Pewdiepie and Logan Paul, you take these with a grain of salt.

40+ years ago men in their 30s would be pouring their screaming, obsessive energies into the football terraces, train sets etc, for instance (heck Nick Hornby managed to write a whole book about it), the only difference between then and now is that maybe solitary hobby has become something you share on social media. There's definitely a weirdly competitive edge to the simple pleasure of hobbies that I am not onboard for sure.

And even if the above guy is genuine... ? Again, so what? Total overreaction & overemotional towards a trailer, but he's harmless. I should hope you are completely beyond reproach...

Sure I can think of people who'd judge both of us as 'utter f*cking losers' for posting on an internet forum

Yeah, good point actually, hope you are right.
But I am noticing people living at home for a lot lot lot longer!
And I know rents are crazy, but I am talking about financially stable people choosing to live at home in their 40s.
While they rent out their property to make more $

But that's another thread ...

Dades

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

There's a phrase I love re gaming (originally 'playing'), that I think applies to similar recreational interests.

You don't grow old and stop gaming, you stop gaming and grow old.

Life can be a bit sh*tty, so if people can derive joy or excitement from something superficially pointless, then great. It hurts nobody and provides social interaction or a necessary escape for a lot of people.

brevity

Yea, they’re having fun. I don’t see the big issue really. Once they don’t go home and start berating the stars on social media of course.

PhiloCypher

I think Palps return is an acknowledgement by the powers that be that Rian left them in a bit of a pickle having killed off Snoke and leaving the First Order in the hands of Kylo or Hux. Who let's face it, aren't exactly leadership material. One is a petulant child who Snoke emasculates every chance he gets, and the other is a snooty FO General who gets emasculated by Poe. Few tho they are(however many fit on the Falcon) you'd have to fancy the resistance chance against those spoofers.

Dades

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Few tho they are(however many fit on the Falcon) you'd have to fancy the resistance chance against those spoofers.

Fair point!

Hux is an awful character with all the menace of Nelson from the Simpsons.
And Kylo Ren is too much like a conventional millennial to trust to run an organisation.

tigger123

Dades wrote: »

Fair point!

Hux is an awful character with all the menace of Nelson from the Simpsons.
And Kylo Ren is too much like a conventional millennial to trust to run an organisation.

I thought Adam Driver's performance was one of the particular strengths of the last two movies. Especially in TLJ; I think he really stole the show.

Circuital

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I think Palps return is an acknowledgement by the powers that be that Rian left them in a bit of a pickle having killed off Snoke and leaving the First Order in the hands of Kylo or Hux. Who let's face it, aren't exactly leadership material. One is a petulant child who Snoke emasculates every chance he gets, and the other is a snooty FO General who gets emasculated by Poe. Few tho they are(however many fit on the Falcon) you'd have to fancy the resistance chance against those spoofers.

Don't think that's the case. Read that RJ and JJ worked together on what happens with Snoke. RJ said as much in an interview.

I'm sure they didn't go into filming RoS with little knowing of how they were developing the story. This would've been done years ago.

Dades

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

tigger123 wrote: »

I thought Adam Driver's performance was one of the particular strengths of the last two movies. Especially in TLJ; I think he really stole the show.

Don't get me wrong - I really like the character.

I'd question it however if the new movie had him as head of the First Order. He's a headcase, not a dictator.

RayCun

Dades wrote: »

Don't get me wrong - I really like the character.

I'd question it however if the new movie had him as head of the First Order. He's a headcase, not a dictator.

Question it on what basis? That you don't think he'd be an effective leader? If you were in charge of the First Order, you wouldn't put him in charge? But you're not in charge :pac:

The scene has been set over the last two movies for a conflict between Ren and Hux - Vader and Tarkin writ small if you like. Ren more personally powerful but crazy, Hux a bit of an idiot but with the military bureaucracy behind him.

It isn't narratively important for the First Order to have an effective leader, and it wouldn't be unrealistic for an organisation to splinter into factions after the death of the leader.

Dades

Runaway hit highest gross beating The force Awakens

RayCun wrote: »

Question it on what basis? That you don't think he'd be an effective leader?

Correct.

It all depends on how the story pans out. Putting KR in charge shouldn't work and things would go to crap as he acts out on personal vendettas instead of consolidating power. If that's what happens in TROS then that would be true to character. All good.

Palpatine was a Sith and a politician running the long game and eventually created the ultimate power. No wonder they're bringing him back like Steve Jobs to steady the ship. :pac:

Hector Savage

Agreed about Kylo Ren, he doesn't suit the main big boss role, still love the character though - just as a no. 2.
Glad to see the mask will be back, it looks nice and intimidating ..It's 8 months away