The Liam Miller memorial match and Rule 42

alaimacerc

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Slightly off topic but still related, I honestly believe that it's time for the GAA to relax or abandon the Rule 42.

I think they should, at a minimum, add a Croke-type rule for other venues that have received large public subventions. I'm not going to die in a ditch to say exactly what amount is "large", but I'd say that anytime it's sparked off a EU Commission investigation of improper state subsidy, spin the motor around and drive it back a few million. Or if such use is part of the explicit purpose of granting the money in the first place. Both being the case with PUC.

Bonniedog

Deleted User wrote: »

No no, that was not the constant refrain from Bonniedog.

He was not having a go at those on social media, or the media itself, or those who came out to attack the GAA.

He constantly belittled Liam Miller himself with a "who is he, no one even knew of him" line, and took it out on the organisers who are, in effect, a charity raising money for the deceased's family and a hospice. There is little suggestion that they have orchestrated any campaign.

He was entitled to defend the GAA, sneering at the deceased was not good enough.

before

I never heard of Liam Millar before. Same as soccer supporters probably never heard of Matt Connor who neve got a testimonial.

As for the Liverpool supporter, how many people in Liverpool support Cork City or Dundalk?

trapp

Bonniedog wrote: »

before

I never heard of Liam Millar before. Same as soccer supporters probably never heard of Matt Connor who neve got a testimonial.

As for the Liverpool supporter, how many people in Liverpool support Cork City or Dundalk?

Spell his name properly at least, it must be great to hide your bigoted views behind your ignorance.

As an aside the vast vast vast majority of sports people in this country play or played and follow to various extents soccer, hurling and gaelic football.

Then, as with everything else, there are idiots on the extreme of both sides who embarrass themselves.

On the GAA side these people constantly and rightly point out the great work done by GAA clubs all over the country but always put in a criticism of soccer too by implying that soccer clubs do little.

In reality the working class areas of Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Belfast etc are full of volunteers in soccer clubs doing their best for the kids in these areas.

Volunteers exist in all sports, listening to some GAA men would lead you to believe they are exclusive to the GAA.

Seems to me that the GAA is becoming more and more elitist in both a sporting and social sense.

Extortionate ticket prices
Money making round robins
Games hidden behind pay per view tv stations
The dominant game in middle class areas
Is it now a requirement for an inter county player to go to (and pay for) a third level education - how many of the Dub hurlers or footballers come from the inner city or a council estate in Tallaght, how many of the Limerick hurlers come from Moyross or Southill?

Seems to me that Gaelic Games are now games for only certain Irish people rather than all Irish people or was it always that way anyway?

Imagine that a Cork man, a true rebel, can't have a game in his memory played in the biggest stadium in his city because he had the cheek to play a ''foreign'' game.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Cork City FC are in the draw for the 3rd round Europa League next week. One of the potential teams is Celtic. Would there be a reopening of the debate if this happens?

While PUC is a GAA stadium, I think when an event that benefits the people of Cork can be hosted there then it should be. Otherwise to make things fair Cork City FC should get 30 million in public funds to build their own stadium, and Munster Rugby as well. So Cork can have 3 stadiums that are full once a year. That's an Irish solution to an Irish problem right there.

It's not often that Cork gets the chance to host big events, and any chance it does get benefits the whole of the city and county imo.

Bonniedog

trapp wrote: »

Spell his name properly at least, it must be great to hide your bigoted views behind your ignorance.

As an aside the vast vast vast majority of sports people in this country play or played and follow to various extents soccer, hurling and gaelic football.

Then, as with everything else, there are idiots on the extreme of both sides who embarrass themselves.

On the GAA side these people constantly and rightly point out the great work done by GAA clubs all over the country but always put in a criticism of soccer too by implying that soccer clubs do little.

In reality the working class areas of Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Belfast etc are full of volunteers in soccer clubs doing their best for the kids in these areas.

Volunteers exist in all sports, listening to some GAA men would lead you to believe they are exclusive to the GAA.

Seems to me that the GAA is becoming more and more elitist in both a sporting and social sense.

Extortionate ticket prices
Money making round robins
Games hidden behind pay per view tv stations
The dominant game in middle class areas
Is it now a requirement for an inter county player to go to (and pay for) a third level education - how many of the Dub hurlers or footballers come from the inner city or a council estate in Tallaght, how many of the Limerick hurlers come from Moyross or Southill?

Seems to me that Gaelic Games are now games for only certain Irish people rather than all Irish people or was it always that way anyway?

Imagine that a Cork man, a true rebel, can't have a game in his memory played in the biggest stadium in his city because he had the cheek to play a ''foreign'' game.

I never heard of him before this. How was he a "true rebel"? Because he played for a Scottish soccer team?

Looks like GAA have surrendered once again, so you have won. Megan to throw in ball for Cork county final

trapp

Bonniedog wrote: »

I never heard of him before this. How was he a "true rebel"? Because he played for a Scottish soccer team?

Looks like GAA have surrendered once again, so you have won. Megan to throw in ball for Cork county final

A true rebel because he was from Cork.

Forget Megan throwing in the ball, if the Gah keeps going at this rate in 20 years time it will only be played in the private schools and soccer will be the number one sport all over the country.

Who knows without the gah taking all the talent we might even make a World Cup!

markodaly

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

All this stuff begs a very important question.

Is PUC a GAA stadium under GAA rules or is it a stadium for everybody.

Needs answering.

Because if the latter is true, heads need to roll in the GAA.

Almost all legal opinion at the moment indicates that because of state aid rules and the decision from the EC, that PUC has to open its doors to other sports.

The GAA rule book does not and cannot supersede the law of the land, and as Ireland is a member of the EU, the EC ruling supersede rule 42.
If this went to court, the GAA would lose hands down.

I expect rule 42 to be abolished or amended come the next Congress and rightly so.

This would mean that in Cork, PUC would be seen as the main sports ground where all field sports can get a fair shake of being played there, if the case demands it. For example, Cork City FC making it to a later stage of the UEFA Cup.

Let us not forget, the 100 year battle the GAA has waged on other sports in the country. People go on about the FAI and Cork City FC building their own facilities, would have been a lot easier if it were not for the GAA not arm wrestling and suppressing these other sports with various rules, right out of Jim Crow era Deep Southern USA.

I welcome this move and hopefully, the top brass of the GAA realise that it's not at war with other sports.

delboythedub

Good idea Shift it to the Aviva. Job Done.

pjohnson

Bonniedog wrote: »

I never heard of him before this. How was he a "true rebel"? Because he played for a Scottish soccer team?

Looks like GAA have surrendered once again, so you have won. Megan to throw in ball for Cork county final

He also did play for Cork as you've been told before but sure he played that foreign game so I guess he doesn't deserve anything since he "betrayed" us.

Utterly embarassing carry on from you.

P_1

markodaly wrote: »

Almost all legal opinion at the moment indicates that because of state aid rules and the decision from the EC, that PUC has to open its doors to other sports.

The GAA rule book does not and cannot supersede the law of the land, and as Ireland is a member of the EU, the EC ruling supersede rule 42.
If this went to court, the GAA would lose hands down.

I expect rule 42 to be abolished or amended come the next Congress and rightly so.

This would mean that in Cork, PUC would be seen as the main sports ground where all field sports can get a fair shake of being played there, if the case demands it. For example, Cork City FC making it to a later stage of the UEFA Cup.

Let us not forget, the 100 year battle the GAA has waged on other sports in the country. People go on about the FAI and Cork City FC building their own facilities, would have been a lot easier if it were not for the GAA not arm wrestling and suppressing these other sports with various rules, right out of Jim Crow era Deep Southern USA.

I welcome this move and hopefully, the top brass of the GAA realise that it's not at war with other sports.

Hopefully the top brass in the GAA can see this benefit and join the rest of us in the 21st century. We are a small island in global terms subdividing ourselves further makes absolutely zero sense. Imagine the economic boon to Cork that 2 full houses seeing Cork City v Celtic and Cork City v Arsenal would bring. Plus showcasing how unique a stadium PuC is to the world.

Lads I can only see benefits here.

ShatterProof

delboythedub wrote: »

Good idea Shift it to the Aviva. Job Done.

Your name says it all.

Trampas

While personally I think it should be played in Cork it just shows up how bad the fai is.

Only 1 decent ground in the country. They don’t give a flying **** about anything else bar the international team. Just look at the mess with bray and limerick.

Easy for them to let the gaa take the abuse when really they should be the fai taking it

alaimacerc

markodaly wrote: »

Almost all legal opinion at the moment indicates that because of state aid rules and the decision from the EC, that PUC has to open its doors to other sports.

I suspect their advice is that they've given some sort of undertaking to that effect, consistent at least with the government going hugger mugger for the rugger bugger wugger cugger, but only within the terms of their existing rulebook. Meaning:

• Up to a year's notice needed (not a problem for the RWC, of course);
• Approved on an exceptional, ad hoc basis; rule prohibiting it remains, so a separate decision allowing each contravening fixture is needed, so as to avoid any slippery-slope precedents;
• You'll have to give us a ton of further public money before we do so ("exceptional costs arising"; "need to further develop the facility for multiple-sport use");
• No, a bit more than that;
• Keep going;
• We'll say when;
• We can still say no, on any grounds whatsoever. Some field sports, but not others (already de facto the case: NFL good, garrison games bad). Neighbouring counties ganging up to sabotage a rival's nice little earner.

alaimacerc

Bonniedog wrote: »

How was he a "true rebel"? Because he played for a Scottish soccer team?

I know, right? A True Rebel would have played for Man U!

Bonniedog

Bonniedog wrote: »

before

I never heard of Liam Millar before. Same as soccer supporters probably never heard of Matt Connor who neve got a testimonial.

The analogy is terrible.

First of all, you separate GAA and soccer supporters as if they are different people entirely, each completely ignorant of the other sport, because you never heard of Liam Miller.

Secondly, Miller played for Ireland, Manchester United and Celtic in recent years, the clubs are known and supported throughout the island and indeed the world. Matt Connor was probably more highly regarded in his sport...but he played for Offaly c. 35 years ago.

On an aside, it seems remarkable that Connor never got a benefit, tribute or testimonial, something that should be condemned in a thread of its own. You don't do the GAA any favours by contrasting the two.

And finally, I note you chose to.spell Miller in an unusual way. If you do open a thread about how badly the GAA has treated Matt Connor, you would be unhappy if the best someone could do was to keep posting 'who's Matt Conners, most people never heard of Matt Conners".

OldMrBrennan83

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alaimacerc

Patww79 wrote: »

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As google is a thing, we can pretty much automatically assume that people have little excuse to be citing their own lack of personal knowledge as proof-positive of someone's deep obscurity.

OldMrBrennan83

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Patww79

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is no issue with the poster not knowing of him. But to repeatedly insist that most never heard of him, and to insist on.spelling his name in an unusual way? I think we both suspect he is being deliberately obtuse.

And even if he is completely ignorant of both the player and the correct spelling, what's he driving at? That the cancer wasn't such an issue because he wasn't as well known as Bonniedog thinks he should be to merit a tribute? Or, from his latest effort, because the GAA have ignored Matt Connor's injury, others sports fans should ignore Liam Miller's passing?

He at least seems to have dropped the line that it's all a ruse to embarrass the GAA, orchestrated by those raising money for Miller's wife, children and a hospice.

Brendan Bendar

I don’t think it’s fair to the Miller family to be discussing Liam’s career.

The lad went way too early and we all agree on that.

The issue here is the use of PUC for a soccer testimonial.

1 Have the GAA the power to refuse it?

2. What is the status of PUC viz a viz other events being held

3. Are there terms and conditions in there which we don’t know about.


These are the pertinent questions about which I haven’t seen definitive backed up answers to.

This needs to be cleared up properly for the future, as issues like this will definitely recur again.

OldMrBrennan83

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Patww79

Patww79 wrote: »

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Alternatively, a very clear signal that sports organisations with bans about the use of their facilities in their rules should be denied grant assistance and a clear message to not even ask again in the future. Would also clear up confusion.

Brendan Bendar

Deleted User wrote: »

Alternatively, a very clear signal that sports organisations with bans about the use of their facilities in their rules should be denied grant assistance and a clear message to not even ask again in the future. Would also clear up confusion.

Conor denying sports organizations, especially amateur ethos sports like the GAA grant assistance is frankly ludicrous.

Their own money pays for most of the stadia, the upkeep the running costs etc

If we want all purpose stadia for instance in Cork, then the people of Cork or the government should pay for it.

You need to think this stuff through Conor.


The bottom line is still the most important here

Ha ve the GAA the rights to refuse permission for an event in PUC.

It’s that simple and until I get clear proof either way I will uphold the GAA stance

Bobeagleburger

If the GAA are happy to accept public money( and they absolutely should be given grants), then they should be open to using their facilities from time to time.

alaimacerc

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

3. Are there terms and conditions in there which we don’t know about.


These are the pertinent questions about which I haven’t seen definitive backed up answers to.

Do we definitively know the things we don't know about? That's a puzzler all right.

It's clear the EU Commission were given some sort of assurance their would be "non-discriminatory" access given to "other field sports". I don't think we know the details of that, either from the government or from the Gaa. It seems at least that the gov and the gaa had some sort of nod-and-a-wink understanding about the RWC, and the EUC were told it would go beyond that.

Surely it would indeed have been much better if this had been done much more transparently.

Sheep breeder

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Look you seem to be missing the big picture here, in Ireland people love sport and that is a fact. A lot of gaa lads play soccer or rugby in the off season and no run of the mill gaa club has its own elite set of players who have no other sports interest and that is a fact. Sport is a seasonal thing and kids follow what is in season and it’s all about taking part and enjoyment.
Last night on the news the Irish women hockey team beat America, people watch for Shane Lowry in the golf and watch the results of the tour the France.
And before you get up on the gaa kkk stance, I played gaa in four counties and was on committees for years and now involved with ladies football ( the new light for the gaa). The most important thing with an sports pitch is that it is being used for enjoyment by all people young and old.

My local pitch is used by a retired man who does laps of the pitch running as he is afraid to run on the road and never played gaa, but buys 3 tickets a week for the last 20 years in the club loto and is he not a supporter of the gaa. Every lad in the village has played in a soccer kick around in the pitch and maybe never played gaa and he is black and Amber supporter of the club and will come out and support the club in fund raising or follow the team. Sport is for everybody and to say you never heard of Liam miller is foolish first and foremost he was and Irishman and a cork man and a sports person.

alaimacerc

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Ha ve the GAA the rights to refuse permission for an event in PUC.

Their claim isn't quite that; it's that they're obliged to refuse permission (without waiting until next year's congress).

pjohnson

Patww79 wrote: »

Even if they allow this, there should be a hard line drawn under it and a clear message to not even ask again in the future. Would save all confusion.

Hopefully Rule 42 gets expanded to forbid any concerts or charitable events in future. Thats the ideal scenario yeah?

Brendan Bendar

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

You need to think this stuff through Conor.

Oh I agree that it should not be denied.

I was responding to the suggestion that permission be given on this occasion only but only on the basis that no young man dies in tragic circumstances that might give rise to another request like this again. The whole "oh alright, but this time only" tone of Patww's post. I pointed out that if certainty is required to address any confusion about whether they can or can't, there is at least one other possibility, I wasn't advocating it.

alaimacerc

pjohnson wrote: »

Hopefully Rule 42 gets expanded to forbid any concerts or charitable events in future. Thats the ideal scenario yeah?

U2 might be argued to be a Garrison Band, but I don't think they're regarded as a rival sport. Hence concerts come under the "nice little earner" category.