Changes in the GAA - super thread

Rockfish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992173#Comment_117992173

But we will all have to adjust to a new mindset, there will be no NFL as we knew it, it will be the championship, your first 'league' game is your first game in the cship. Teams will adjust their training/preparation accordingly. btw when is this vote?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992750#Comment_117992750

I guess, it will take a bit of getting used to, overall i think it's a good idea

The vote is Saturday 23rd

MacDanger

What's the breakdown of the 16 teams that make it through? I can't find the exact details anywhere (which makes me think that the GAA have absolutely no desire for these changes to be successful)

Top 5 in D1

Top 3 in D2?

Top 2 in D3?

Top 2 in D4?

4 x provincial winners?

Always_Running

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993858#Comment_117993858

10 through to the knock out stages.

5 Div 1 and Div 2 winners into the All-Ireland quarters. 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th in Div 1 will be seeded.

Second and 3rd in Div 2 will play the Div 3, 4 winners for the final two quarter final spots.

The provincial championships that was connected to the All-Ireland series becomes a pre season league competition played in February and March.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993858#Comment_117993858

Don't think the provincial championships are linked in any way to the AIC/L.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993858#Comment_117993858

I don't think it's because they don't want the change it's just that they are terrible at things like this.

I went looking for a breakdown of the two proposals last month (to take my mind off the Mayo All Ireland loss) and the only place I could find anything of value was in some tabloid newspaper article from a few months earlier.

This sort of thing should be front page on the main GAA website.

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995537#Comment_117995537

It's a bit mad that such important proposals are still not clearly understood, though the fact that the GAA establishment is against them provides a clue. Still, i cant understand why the media arent all over this? Makes no sense

Fr Tod Umptious

Article in this week's Kerryman saying that there were a lot of negativity from Kerry clubs about option B (option A was a non starter) because of what happens to the bottom three in Division 1.

The point was brought up that sometimes league places are decided by points difference.

And I agree, where you have a small competition of only seven games the margins can be very tight, so a point or two scored or conceded could be the difference between a QF place and not.

I think every Div 1 teams should see at least one game after the league section, instead of having to yeild to someone from Div 3 and 4.

They are in Div 1 for a reason after all.

I think the whole thing will fail on that.

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117998494#Comment_117998494

Ya, would like to see all Div 1 teams have one knockout game but i think the main thing is for this to get through and see how it works, can always be tweaked after next year. The lack of debate on this is quite soemthing though, i was talking to a few GAA heads, heavily involved in clubs etc last night, and they didnt really know anything about it

theoneeyedman

This is dead in the water imho, having the 3 options is a means of splitting any vote for change, and the status quo will remain. Is it 66% or something required to approve a change at Congress?

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000131#Comment_118000131

There are only two proposals and both will be voted on separately, 60% is needed

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000175#Comment_118000175

I stand corrected so, I thought there were 3,the A,B and C options.

That's a horse of a different colour so, if that's the case.....my own fault for not reading up on it properly so, but the info on the proposals is scant enough.

Coillte_Bhoy

Finally found a good outline of both proposals

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dysfunction-of-provinces-driving-spirit-for-reform-40933140.html

Option A – Eight-county provincial championships:

Bottom three seeded counties in Leinster and bottom one in Ulster move to Connacht and Munster (seedings based on NFL positions).

Each province split into two round-robin groups of four, guaranteeing counties three matches. Each group winner qualifies for All-Ireland quarter-finals, second and third placed into the qualifiers. Fourth placed teams headed to the Tailteann Cup, if a Division 3 or 4 county.

Option B – League structure for championship:

NFL moves to summer months with provincial championships played over February/March as a stand-alone competition. The championship would be played on the Allianz League basis with the top five teams in Division 1 and Division 2 table-toppers qualifying for All-Ireland quarter-finals. Second and third-placed Division 2 teams as well as Division 3 and 4 winners go through to preliminary quarter-finals to fill the last two spots in the last eight. The Tailteann Cup would comprise those Division 3 and 4 teams who don’t qualify for knock-out stages of the All-Ireland SFC.

If both proposals fail to reach the necessary 60 per cent the status quo remains with some version of the qualifiers in place next year, along with the provincial system as before. Super 8s may be jettisoned due to split season being introduced in 2022.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000267#Comment_118000267

Well in a sense there are actually four options, in that if both reform proposals are defeated I believe the congress will then have to decide whether to retain the super 8s or revert to a straight back door system.

But yes there are two actual reform proposals, A and B. And apparently B (league as championship) is the one gaining traction.

Coillte_Bhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000410#Comment_118000410

I was under the impression that the Super 8's are gone anyway

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118000673#Comment_118000673

That Sindo article says they 'may' be jettisoned

gormdubhgorm

Discussions on 'proposal A' and 'proposal B'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vpdHJ5pnVg&t=3s

Fr Tod Umptious

Just looking at the last 11 (normal) seasons again.

Consider the following

With Option B places 6, 7 and 8 in Div 1 play no further part in the championship after the league stages.

2nd and 3rd in Div 2 play off against 1st and 1st in Div 3 and Div 4 for a QF place.

Now based on a well used line that's thrown out there that Div 3 and Div 4 teams rarely beat teams in the divisions higher than them in the championship, one would have to assume that the Div 2 teams would more often than not come out on top in the playoff v Div 3 and 4.

So essentially the 6th place team in Div 1 is yielding a place in the QF to the 3rd pace team in Div 2.

Now based on that, between 2009 and 2019 taking the championship exit point of both the Div 1 6th place team and the Div 2 3rd place team the following was the case.

On only two of eleven occasions did the Div 2 third pace team fare better than the Div 1 6th place team in the ensuing championship.

On two occasions they both finished the championship at the same level.

And on 7 occasions the 6th placed Div 1 team fared better than the 3rd placed Div 2 team.

It's stupid and will not pass.

2009

Dublin (QF) yield to Kildare (QF)

2010

Monaghan (rd4) yield to Donegal (rd1)

2011

Armagh (rd3) yield to Derry (rd4)

2012

Donegal (Winners) yield to Galway (rd2)

2013

Kerry (SF) yield to Laois (Rd4)

2014

Kerry (winners) yield to Meath (Rd4)

2015

Kerry (Final) yield to Meath (Rd2)

2016

Monaghan (Rd2) yield to Galway (QF)

2017

Tyrone (SF) yield to Meath (Rd3)

2018

Mayo (Rd2) yield to Clare (Rd2)

2019

Monaghan (Rd2) yield to Fermanagh (Rd1)

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995537#Comment_117995537

SKY SPORTS have provided a better breakdown of these proposals than the GAA.

There is a real irony to that!

https://www.skysports.com/gaa/gaelic-football/news/30553/12354469/all-ireland-football-championship-restructure-pros-and-cons-of-the-two-proposals-ahead-of-the-gaas-special-congress

blowitupref

At the last numbers of Congress it was 66% needed for any motion to pass on the 23rd its down to 60%.

For those that think neither proposal will get voted in its worth pointing out the daftness of a group stage for the last 8 of All-Ireland championship got 76% of the vote and they refused to remove Dublins two games in Croke Park in year 2.

IMO they should go with the status quo and come back another year with the flaws in proposal B ironed out.

Treble double

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004564#Comment_118004564

You can't compare the past leauges to the new competition.

Some teams in division1 have used the leauge as preparation for the championship and just do enough to avoid relegation so past standings don't mean much and comparisons are irrelevant

Proposal B means the leauge is championship and if you can't finish in the top 5 out of 8 after 7 games you deserve go be out of the competition.

Any team with ambitions of winning the big prize will want to be playing division 1 but the beauty of this is it gives all counties 7 games with teams of similar ability and a chance to come into the knockout series with momentum and confidence making them a dangerous opponent. Plus there is a secondary competition for div 3 and 4 teams.

This proposal is a no brainer and I don't think it needs much tweaking.

It will be a kick in the guts to football if it doesn't get the go ahead.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012404#Comment_118012404

Ok, I'll throw this at you

In the 11 seasons between 2009 and 2019 here are the gaps between the 5th placed Div 1 team and the 6th place Div 1 team.

Essentially the gap between getting further in the championship or giving up a place for the sake of the 11th, 17th or 25th place team in Ireland.

2009 -1pt

2010 - 2pts (actually the bottom 3 all finished on the same amount of points)

2011 - 1pt

2012 - scoring difference of 6.

2013 - scoring difference of 13

2014 - 2pts

2015 - scoring difference of 8

2016 - scoring difference of 2

2017 - 1pt

2018 - 1pt

2019 - 4pts (huge in the grand scheme of things)

So in summary on only three occasions was the difference between 5th and 6th a single win or greater.

And on some occasions it came down to scoring difference.

The reality is that a 7 game league, with an unbalanced home and away schedule and two points for a win is way to small a sample size to be the determinate of who finishes their season early.

No matter how serious teams start taking the 7 games in the new structure that is not going to change.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012605#Comment_118012605

To my fellow posters other than Father Tod

Treble double

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012605#Comment_118012605

"Who finishes their season early"

Every team is guaranteed 7 games in this new championship format.

The previous system or systems we had meant that only the elite went deep into the summer and everyone else had one or two games.

Proposal b gives every team a standard amount of games in the championship and it let's teams develop and build.

It's fair to everyone not just the Kerrys and Dublins and Tyrones.

I don't care how tight the margins between team 5 and the rest are in division 1, if you are not in the top five after 7 championship games you deserve to be gone.

blowitupref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013237#Comment_118013237

Looking that league/championship format for 3 teams in Div 1 and 5 in Div 2 the season will be over by the end of May or early June

As for your final deserve to be comment. 5 teams playing in weaker divisions will go on to play in the AI series, the 6th,7th,8th placed teams in Div 1 aren't getting what they deserve but are victims of a poorly planned championship format.

Treble double

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014896#Comment_118014896

6, 7 and 8 are getting what they deserve and that is relegation for 7 and 8 and out of the championship for 6.

I would concede that maybe you could tweak it to have 6 teams from div 1 going through and reduce it to 2 teams in division 2 but other than that this proposal b is almost perfect and it's streets ahead of any other alternative that's been mooted.

blowitupref

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015117#Comment_118015117

Again they are playing in a stronger division. Mayo for example could get relegated but if given the chance could still reach AI final, they won't be given that chance with this format.

I'd go with the status quo for now, tidy up on the flaws of proposal B and come back with it at a later date at Congress, that way the shelf life of that format would last longer.

I also feel proposal B would work better in a April to September window than February to July but that will require a reversal of the spit season that was only recently voted in.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015232#Comment_118015232

Usually in Div. 1 you get one team that is out of it's depth, one that struggles and after that it's a few teams that are fairly equal on any given year.

And making the league the championship and "more important" is not going to change that, you are going to get a team in 6th place that could equally have gone deep in the championship, had they finished 5th.

And they may have only missed on on 5th by a single loss, or less. And that loss could have come in one of their four away games, where as the team in 5th could have had three away games.

I think it's a great idea overall, but the loss of the 6th place team in Div 1 is far too unforgiving.

I'd expect a lot more debate about it in the week leading up the vote.

Treble double

I think people are missing the point,these 7 games will not be like leauge games of old, every one of them will be crucial championship matches, if you can't finish in the top 5 out of 8 teams you have no chance of winning the all Ireland anyway and can't have any misgivings about being out.

We have being cowtowing to the superpowers for too long this is great for the minnows.

manofwisdom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015600#Comment_118015600

I'd expect only the latter stages games to be crucial matches and theyll likely be the matches that will attract the biggest attendances.

No chance you say, I'd give them a better chance that 2nd, 3rd in Div 2 or Div 3, 4 winners of winning the AI if all had the equal chance.

As for the minnows how is proposal B great for them? Such a format will not close the gap between the has and has nots.