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Changes in the GAA - super thread

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    #2162
    Gentleman Off The Pitch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭Gentleman Off The Pitch


    Apologies if this is not exactly within the context of the thread but I think it is an awful shame that the player and team statistics like which consumers of other sports enjoy are not more readily available to the general GAA public.

    I think today there is a demand for it and I would love to have such stats such as possessions won, free for/against, direct assists, distance covered, yellow/red cards, scoring zone stats etc. at hand for each inter county hurling player for a given competition or time period.

    You'd have to imagine they will eventually become available but it's a pity that for our favourite players playing now they are not


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    #2163
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    Wild proposal incoming. I think we should start treating counties like national sides in soccer and rugby. Scrap the League and replace it with a three tier championship.

    Tier 1: 12 teams

    Tier 2: 12 teams

    Tier 3: 8 teams

    Each tier has a double round-robin group stage followed by a knockout round. Tier 3 could be a triple round-robin or have cross group games to increase the number of games. Another option is to invite the British teams over and have three tiers of 12.

    Tiers 1 and 2 have a minimum of 10 games and a maximum of 13 games. Tier 3 has a minimum of 6 games and a maximum of 8.

    This format are can be played during the spring/summer and leave a lot more time for clubs. It also gives every county something to play for. The provincials could be played before or alongside the championship. The GAA could also explore other types of pre-season competitions. Perhaps we could bring back the Railway Cup.


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    #2164
    windy shepard henderson
    Registered Users Posts: 5,768 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    Wild proposal incoming. I think we should start treating counties like national sides in soccer and rugby. Scrap the League and replace it with a three tier championship.

    Tier 1: 12 teams

    Tier 2: 12 teams

    Tier 3: 8 teams

    Each tier has a double round-robin group stage followed by a knockout round. Tier 3 could be a triple round-robin or have cross group games to increase the number of games. Another option is to invite the British teams over and have three tiers of 12.

    Tiers 1 and 2 have a minimum of 10 games and a maximum of 13 games. Tier 3 has a minimum of 6 games and a maximum of 8.

    This format are can be played during the spring/summer and leave a lot more time for clubs. It also gives every county something to play for. The provincials could be played before or alongside the championship. The GAA could also explore other types of pre-season competitions. Perhaps we could bring back the Railway Cup.

    its something like this that needs to happen , tier 2 is not enough and offers a cop out like the tommy murphy cup where teams stopped training after their provencal championships finished . this idea would be the way forward in my opinion


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    #2165
    windy shepard henderson
    Registered Users Posts: 5,768 ✭✭✭windy shepard henderson


    Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »
    Apologies if this is not exactly within the context of the thread but I think it is an awful shame that the player and team statistics like which consumers of other sports enjoy are not more readily available to the general GAA public.

    I think today there is a demand for it and I would love to have such stats such as possessions won, free for/against, direct assists, distance covered, yellow/red cards, scoring zone stats etc. at hand for each inter county hurling player for a given competition or time period.

    You'd have to imagine they will eventually become available but it's a pity that for our favourite players playing now they are not

    exactly , there are apps and websites like whoscored that produce everything that you talk about here when it comes to soccer

    most football and hurling teams at top intercounty level use the same software as the opta people in the uk using programed heat map systems to monitor players movements possians , even the tv companies have this data , it should be shared afterwards at least


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    #2166
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    windy shepard henderson wrote: »
    its something like this that needs to happen , tier 2 is not enough and offers a cop out like the tommy murphy cup where teams stopped training after their provencal championships finished . this idea would be the way forward in my opinion

    Even the two tiers could have been done better. 16 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Double round-robin so each team gets at least six games. Top 2 advance to QF. Bottom team in each group enter the relegation play-offs.


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    #2167
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,698 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    Even the two tiers could have been done better. 16 teams split into 4 groups of 4. Double round-robin so each team gets at least six games. Top 2 advance to QF. Bottom team in each group enter the relegation play-offs.

    Keep it to a single round robin stages, keep the provincial championships and run them alongside the main competition. Provincial finals and all Ireland final at the end the season, would bring more meaning to the provincials I think


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    #2168
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    Keep it to a single round robin stages, keep the provincial championships and run them alongside the main competition. Provincial finals and all Ireland final at the end the season, would bring more meaning to the provincials I think

    I prefer double round-robin for groups. Gives each team a home and away game.


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    #2169
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    Keep it to a single round robin stages, keep the provincial championships and run them alongside the main competition. Provincial finals and all Ireland final at the end the season, would bring more meaning to the provincials I think
    Why even bother with the provincials? Teams wont take them seriously anymore when they are not part of the AI Cship especially if run alongside the cship


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    #2170
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Why even bother with the provincials? Teams wont take them seriously anymore when they are not part of the AI Cship especially if run alongside the cship
    people assume that but we dont know for sure. But if you put in some form of inventive for winning provincial title it would be worth it. Especially for counties who wont necessarily be at all Ireland semi final stage often.


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    #2171
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    people assume that but we dont know for sure. But if you put in some form of inventive for winning provincial title it would be worth it. Especially for counties who wont necessarily be at all Ireland semi final stage often.

    What form of incentive? You already get a spot in the Super 8s if you win the provincials now.


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    #2172
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    It's a bit of a squaring the circle argument. People want the entire championship restructured with groups, open draws etc., but also want to keep the Provinces and have the winners of the Provinces advance to later rounds than everyone else. Which is pretty much the format we have now.


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    #2173
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    people assume that but we dont know for sure. But if you put in some form of inventive for winning provincial title it would be worth it. Especially for counties who wont necessarily be at all Ireland semi final stage often.

    If you're going well in the AI cship and you have a provincial cship game in between 2 big AI cship games, it's pretty obvious what will happen, no?


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    #2174
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Keep the provincial championships but have them open draw and separate from the All Ireland Championship. Have an open draw All Ireland Championship after provincials.


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    #2175
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    Keep the provincial championships but have them open draw and separate from the All Ireland Championship. Have an open draw All Ireland Championship after provincials.

    So you want to add another competition into the mix? If the provincials dont lead directly to the AI series there will be no interest in them, well there will but it'll be about the same as the current January provincial leagues


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    #2176
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    There will always be plenty of interest in provincial championships. Local bragging rights and the chance for silverware. Provincial boards would find it hard to survive without cash from provincial championships. It's not extra time in the football calendar anyways as the provincial championships are running for years. Just have them earlier in the summer and schedule them to finish by a certain date. The provincial championships route to the All Ireland championships give an unfair advantage to Connacht and Munster teams because they play less games to win their province. An open draw All Ireland would stop that.

    I have no faith in it happening. Under Horan's plans for an Elite Championship and a Small Ireland Championship there are many GAA top brass ready to rake in the cash and delighted to see kids in so-called weaker counties wearing elite county jersies every summer.


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    #2177
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    There will always be plenty of interest in provincial championships. Local bragging rights and the chance for silverware. Provincial boards would find it hard to survive without cash from provincial championships. It's not extra time in the football calendar anyways as the provincial championships are running for years. Just have them earlier in the summer and schedule them to finish by a certain date. The provincial championships route to the All Ireland championships give an unfair advantage to Connacht and Munster teams because they play less games to win their province. An open draw All Ireland would stop that.

    I have no faith in it happening. Under Horan's plans for an Elite Championship and a Small Ireland Championship there are many GAA top brass ready to rake in the cash and delighted to see kids in so-called weaker counties wearing elite county jersies every summer.

    There will be plenty of interest in Ulster and Connacht among the big three counties but Leinster and Munster are dying. An open draw All-Ireland solves the issue of a lopsided qualification system but doesn't address the overall issue. Most teams are not capable of winning Sam which is why we are moving towards a tiered championship. Horan's proposal is rubbish. They should have just gone with 2 tiers of 16 initially based on the League with 4 groups of 4 in each tier. The top two teams in each group advance to the quarter-finals.


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    #2178
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    There will be plenty of interest in Ulster and Connacht among the big three counties but Leinster and Munster are dying. An open draw All-Ireland solves the issue of a lopsided qualification system but doesn't address the overall issue. Most teams are not capable of winning Sam which is why we are moving towards a tiered championship. Horan's proposal is rubbish. They should have just gone with 2 tiers of 16 initially based on the League with 4 groups of 4 in each tier. The top two teams in each group advance to the quarter-finals.


    The overall issue is that there is a big standards gap between strongest and weakest and it's more pronounced in Leinster and Munster with Dublin and Kerry traditionally dominant. Cork will be back though. A tiered system will only make the standards gap even wider as so-called weaker counties won't have the chance to test themselves against stronger opposition. How else can they improve if they keep playing a weaker standard of football while the elite play elite football?

    Horan's one liner to that is promotion to Tier One. Virtually no county that gets promoted will last long in Tier One, the same way that Wexford, Tipperary and Fernanagh climbed the lofty heights of All Ireland semi final to tumble back down as they had no resources or support. Wexford, Tipp, Fermanagh and a small few other counties that did well in the qualifiers since 2001 was surely a sign that progress could be made to improve standards everywhere.

    Why can't they have a league with 2 counties from each of the current divisions, or run a third competition instead of provincial leagues for weaker counties to try themselves against stronger counties in a National competition? Because they have zero interest in promoting intercounty football outsde the proposed Tier One counties. They should have a Tier Two office in Landsdowne Road as they're surely going to make it easier for the IRFU to find prospective talent amongst the prspective elite athletes who will lose faith in playing for their county in a substandard Small Ireland championship. Nothing at all against rugby by the way. They'd be mad not to check underage and intercounty players, many of who can see college teammates playing a higher standard in their counties and shake their heads at the way Horan and his buddies have kicked them further down the ladder.


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    #2179
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    The overall issue is that there is a big standards gap between strongest and weakest and it's more pronounced in Leinster and Munster with Dublin and Kerry traditionally dominant. Cork will be back though. A tiered system will only make the standards gap even wider as so-called weaker counties won't have the chance to test themselves against stronger opposition. How else can they improve if they keep playing a weaker standard of football while the elite play elite football?

    Horan's one liner to that is promotion to Tier One. Virtually no county that gets promoted will last long in Tier One, the same way that Wexford, Tipperary and Fernanagh climbed the lofty heights of All Ireland semi final to tumble back down as they had no resources or support. Wexford, Tipp, Fermanagh and a small few other counties that did well in the qualifiers since 2001 was surely a sign that progress could be made to improve standards everywhere.

    Why can't they have a league with 2 counties from each of the current divisions, or run a third competition instead of provincial leagues for weaker counties to try themselves against stronger counties in a National competition? Because they have zero interest in promoting intercounty football outsde the proposed Tier One counties. They should have a Tier Two office in Landsdowne Road as they're surely going to make it easier for the IRFU to find prospective talent amongst the prspective elite athletes who will lose faith in playing for their county in a substandard Small Ireland championship. Nothing at all against rugby by the way. They'd be mad not to check underage and intercounty players, many of who can see college teammates playing a higher standard in their counties and shake their heads at the way Horan and his buddies have kicked them further down the ladder.

    This is where the divisional model comes into play. I think a lot of counties would improve if they gave intermediate and junior a chance to prove themselves at the top level. People talk about the conveyor belt in Kerry but one of the keys to their success is their divisions. They have nurtured talent at all levels.

    It's not just football. The weaker counties in hurling should look at combining their leagues. For example, Derry/Donegal/Fermanagh/Tyrone and Leitrim/Mayo/Roscommon/Sligo.


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    #2180
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    If you're going well in the AI cship and you have a provincial cship game in between 2 big AI cship games, it's pretty obvious what will happen, no?
    you are making big assumptions and yes you could see it happen in some counties but there is still huge number of counties who are not exactly used to winning provincial titles. How many counties would turn chance down at a title when they havent won one in years?
    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    So you want to add another competition into the mix? If the provincials dont lead directly to the AI series there will be no interest in them, well there will but it'll be about the same as the current January provincial leagues
    big assumption to make. I would get did of January compa anyway in any season restructure. Counties shouldn't need competitions for pre season. Just pick and choose as many or as few pre season games as you like and not have knock out cup before league starts.
    GreenandRed wrote: »
    The overall issue is that there is a big standards gap between strongest and weakest and it's more pronounced in Leinster and Munster with Dublin and Kerry traditionally dominant. Cork will be back though. A tiered system will only make the standards gap even wider as so-called weaker counties won't have the chance to test themselves against stronger opposition. How else can they improve if they keep playing a weaker standard of football while the elite play elite football?

    Horan's one liner to that is promotion to Tier One. Virtually no county that gets promoted will last long in Tier One, the same way that Wexford, Tipperary and Fernanagh climbed the lofty heights of All Ireland semi final to tumble back down as they had no resources or support. Wexford, Tipp, Fermanagh and a small few other counties that did well in the qualifiers since 2001 was surely a sign that progress could be made to improve standards everywhere.

    Why can't they have a league with 2 counties from each of the current divisions, or run a third competition instead of provincial leagues for weaker counties to try themselves against stronger counties in a National competition? Because they have zero interest in promoting intercounty football outsde the proposed Tier One counties. They should have a Tier Two office in Landsdowne Road as they're surely going to make it easier for the IRFU to find prospective talent amongst the prspective elite athletes who will lose faith in playing for their county in a substandard Small Ireland championship. Nothing at all against rugby by the way. They'd be mad not to check underage and intercounty players, many of who can see college teammates playing a higher standard in their counties and shake their heads at the way Horan and his buddies have kicked them further down the ladder.
    tiered championship allows sides to play their own level. There is a lot of counties that will never win an all Ireland anyway. Kildare, tipp still have more titles than 20 or so counties and havent won Sam since 1920s.

    A tiered competition with correct marketing, promotion and reward for success will keep interest. Look at any sport. Relegation and promotion is a good thing
    And irfu are doing plenty and a change in this would have no change to how they approach things.


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    #2181
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    you are making big assumptions and yes you could see it happen in some counties but there is still huge number of counties who are not exactly used to winning provincial titles. How many counties would turn chance down at a title when they havent won one in years?

    big assumption to make. I would get did of January compa anyway in any season restructure. Counties shouldn't need competitions for pre season. Just pick and choose as many or as few pre season games as you like and not have knock out cup before league starts.

    tiered championship allows sides to play their own level. There is a lot of counties that will never win an all Ireland anyway. Kildare, tipp still have more titles than 20 or so counties and havent won Sam since 1920s.

    A tiered competition with correct marketing, promotion and reward for success will keep interest. Look at any sport. Relegation and promotion is a good thing
    And irfu are doing plenty and a change in this would have no change to how they approach things.

    Their 'own' level will be of a standard of football less than the poor standard it is already because they won't play counties of a higher standard. There are no plans to market the Tier Two. So-called weaker counties get little or no media coverage as it is. Throwing in a 'chance of silverware' for substandard football compared to Tier One is hardly going to increase media coverage for Tier 2.


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    #2182
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    you are making big assumptions and yes you could see it happen in some counties but there is still huge number of counties who are not exactly used to winning provincial titles. How many counties would turn chance down at a title when they havent won one in years?

    So the lesser counties would take it more seriously as a chance to win silverware, then fine, good for them but the AI contenders arent going to, it makes no sense.


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    #2183
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,884 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    There will always be plenty of interest in provincial championships. Local bragging rights and the chance for silverware. Provincial boards would find it hard to survive without cash from provincial championships. It's not extra time in the football calendar anyways as the provincial championships are running for years. Just have them earlier in the summer and schedule them to finish by a certain date.

    The big drop in attendances would see the money dry up for the provincial councils and just how do you propose to fit them into the current calendar?


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    #2184
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    The big drop in attendances would see the money dry up for the provincial councils and just how do you propose to fit them into the current calendar?

    Good question. Run them in May and June, week on week and start the All Ireland Championship in July. Not too dissimilar to now, without the backdoor to All Ireland, but finishing earlier. Anyways, it is but a dream but I don't like current plans, same way I didn't like the back door introduced in 2001.


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    #2185
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    So the lesser counties would take it more seriously as a chance to win silverware, then fine, good for them but the AI contenders arent going to, it makes no sense.

    Lesser counties won't take it seriously either. Why bother playing in a competition with no prize other than a trophy. Take the domestic cups in soccer. Clubs are rewarded with a place in the European competitions if they win it.


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    #2186
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    Good question. Run them in May and June, week on week and start the All Ireland Championship in July. Not too dissimilar to now, without the backdoor to All Ireland, but finishing earlier. Anyways, it is but a dream but I don't like current plans, same way I didn't like the back door introduced in 2001.

    I can't wait for Dublin v Sligo in Round 1 of the All-Ireland. I reckon the Dubs will win by 20.


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    #2187
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    I can't wait for Dublin v Sligo in Round 1 of the All-Ireland. I reckon the Dubs will win by 20.

    There are always flakings in the championships. Dublin v Wicklow will hardly be any different. Could as easily be Kerry v Dublin in Killarney.The better team will reach the last rounds. In the last open draw knockout National Cup the, then, reigning All Ireland Champions were beaten by Westmeath in the first round! A slim chance of a few giantkillings and some well matched contests. At least it would be an All Ireland and not a closed shop for the elites with more money, better coaches and facilities.


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    #2188
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    There are always flakings in the championships. Dublin v Wicklow will hardly be any different. Could as easily be Kerry v Dublin in Killarney.The better team will reach the last rounds. In the last open draw knockout National Cup the, then, reigning All Ireland Champions were beaten by Westmeath in the first round! A slim chance of a few giantkillings and some well matched contests. At least it would be an All Ireland and not a closed shop for the elites with more money, better coaches and facilities.

    What cup are you referring to? I suspect Dublin weren't taking it seriously.


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    #2189
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    Lesser counties won't take it seriously either. Why bother playing in a competition with no prize other than a trophy. Take the domestic cups in soccer. Clubs are rewarded with a place in the European competitions if they win it.

    And a chance to pit themselves against better teams, playing a different style of football and finding other ways to win rather than stagnating. Winning Europa also brings more qualification to another level competition.


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    #2190
    GreenandRed
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭GreenandRed


    Hawkeye9212 wrote: »
    What cup are you referring to? I suspect Dublin weren't taking it seriously.


    They weren't! I didn't say it was Dublin but then and now they wete reigning All Ireland Champions. It was the Centenary Cup in 1984. Probably not many counties took it seriously.


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    #2191
    Hawkeye9212
    Closed Accounts Posts: 325 ✭✭Hawkeye9212


    GreenandRed wrote: »
    And a chance to pit themselves against better teams, playing a different style of football and finding other ways to win rather than stagnating. Winning Europa also brings more qualification to another level competition.

    We're left with two choices. Either scrap the provincials or retain them as part of the All-Ireland structure. There's no point in trying to find middle ground.


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