Two more victims of "unknown substance" in U.K.

Roger_007

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/major-incident-amesbury-wiltshire-man-woman-unknown-substance-police-sergei-skripal-salisbury-a8430066.html
Two more victims of "an unknown substance" in Wiltshire.
What's going on in Wiltshire?
Have the Russians struck again?
Are there any diplomats left to expel?

Mrcaramelchoc

Did i leave the iron on?

Fr_Dougal

Sounds like they were junkies who found discarded poison from the Russian’s.

Hande hoche!

Might be ectoplasm. Speedy recovery to the victims.

mcmoustache

BBC confirms it now:

this is a link to the bbc with very little information other than the fact that it was the same stuff as before

BorneTobyWilde

Putin is untouchable in reality. He can do what he likes.

mcmoustache

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Putin is untouchable in reality. He can do what he likes.

We don't know for sure that it's Russian related again. It could be just two randomers who put the wrong capsule into their morning multi-vitamin drink.


And before I forget:


PAGING THE USUAL SUSPECTS TO AFTER HOURS.

THE USUAL SUSPECTS TO AFTER HOURS, PLEASE. MOTHER RUSSIA NEEDS YOU EVEN THOUGH RUSSIA HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

mcmoustache

The victims have been named. They're not Russian by the sounds of it so this case is weird. I'll hold off on blaming Russians for the time being.

banie01

It is highly suspicious that in the period since the Skripal poisoning in March, that 2 further people have been struck down by the same nerve agent.
Especially given that according to the Public Health advice offered, that washing clothes and wiping down with baby wipes would seem to imply that Novichok is water soluble that a viable dose could not or at least should not survive in the environment.

With the nearness of Portland Down to the area, and it being the UK's primary chemical weapons research facility, it would point in my mind to either a break in the chain of custody of the UK evidence?
Or that someone in the UK Chemical weapons agency may be gone rogue and using their knowledge to play god.
In any event it manages to make the UK response to the March incident look inept.
And it is fuel to the fire for Russia's denials.

Dr. Bre

Roger_007 wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/major-incident-amesbury-wiltshire-man-woman-unknown-substance-police-sergei-skripal-salisbury-a8430066.html
Two more victims of "an unknown substance" in Wiltshire.
What's going on in Wiltshire?
Have the Russians struck again?
Are there any diplomats left to expel?

It prob wasn’t the russians last time either

mcmoustache

I'm leaning towards poor cleanup or some other cockup with this one.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Russian World Cup must be going well.

BorneTobyWilde

mcmoustache wrote: »

The victims have been named. They're not Russian by the sounds of it so this case is weird. I'll hold off on blaming Russians for the time being.

Maybe they found what all those 100's on cops could not find in their search, opened it and BOOM!

mcmoustache

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Maybe they found what all those 100's on cops could not find in their search, opened it and BOOM!

As unlikely as it sounds, it could well be. Russians definitely carried out the last one but this one lacks motive. That being said, it's early days yet so I'm very open to correction as new facts emerge.

devnull

banie01 wrote: »

In any event it manages to make the UK response to the March incident look inept. And it is fuel to the fire for Russia's denials.

I know that, you know that and no doubt the Russians do too.....

mcmoustache wrote: »

As unlikely as it sounds, it could well be. Russians definitely carried out the last one but this one lacks motive. That being said, it's early days yet so I'm very open to correction as new facts emerge.

See the other post I quoted above....

badabing106

mcmoustache wrote: »

As unlikely as it sounds, it could well be. Russians definitely carried out the last one but this one lacks motive. That being said, it's early days yet so I'm very open to correction as new facts emerge.

Oh come off it. Even the daily mail users know not to link it with Russia

Hande hoche!

Now that the OPCW can assign blame, will there be a culprit this time?

seamus

banie01 wrote: »

And it is fuel to the fire for Russia's denials.

Which means it's definitely a Russian plot to draw the scent away from them.

No, seriously, this is a bit weird. I too would be inclined to go with the "accidental" explanation given above, but that raises more questions again; why would proper agents leave the nerve agent in the open where it could be accidentally found?

Could the Skripal poisoning have been an accident too, just with incredibly coincidental victims?

mcmoustache

devnull wrote: »

I know that, you know that and no doubt the Russians do too.....



See the other post I quoted above....

That's a motive and wouldn't be too surprising. I's just that the last one was obviously Russia whereas this one has other possibilities.

mcmoustache

badabing106 wrote: »

Oh come off it. Even the daily mail users know not to link it with Russia

Which one? This one? Or the last one where former Russian spies were killed by a method typically used by Russians after Putin threatened ex spies with poison on national tv?

the_syco

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm leaning towards poor cleanup or some other cockup with this one.

Either that, or a test to target individuals in a large congregation?

wexie

Maybe it was the Russians but they choose 2 completely random people so they can point at them and say 'see!! we've been saying it all along, wasn't us!'

Franz Von Peppercorn

mcmoustache wrote: »

Which one? This one? Or the last one where former Russian spies were killed by a method typically used by Russians after Putin threatened ex spies with poison on national tv?

They’ve been fierce quiet though.

mcmoustache

seamus wrote: »

Which means it's definitely a Russian plot to draw the scent away from them.

No, seriously, this is a bit weird. I too would be inclined to go with the "accidental" explanation given above, but that raises more questions again; why would proper agents leave the nerve agent in the open where it could be accidentally found?

Could the Skripal poisoning have been an accident too, just with incredibly coincidental victims?

The agents who performed the litvinenko poisoning were sloppy as hell. Left a trail all over london and hamburg. I don't doubt that the skripals were the target last time but it's not inconceivable that the assassins were sloppy this time too.

mcmoustache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

They’ve been fierce quiet though.

I would be too if I was under a state's protection.

mcmoustache

the_syco wrote: »

Either that, or a test to target individuals in a large congregation?

wexie wrote: »

Maybe it was the Russians but they choose 2 completely random people so they can point at them and say 'see!! we've been saying it all along, wasn't us!'

None of these ideas are out of the question but they're only speculation, if reasonable speculation at this point.


Right now, I suspect that it's just a cock up but I'm coming at that conclusion from a state of ignorance right now. As more information comes in, I'll probably change my mind.


An interesting read is the Litvinenko poisoning. The assassins in that case were fairly sloppy and made a lot of mistakes.


Wiki has a summary and there's a verbose report as well as other articles tracing the timeline.

Roger_007

The British went very quiet on the Skripal cases once the two victims had recovered. It suggests to me that they found out from the Skripals that they had been barking up the wrong tree and in order to avoid huge embarrassment on the world stage they thought it better to say nothing more and hope the story would fade away.
The story the British put out was that it could only have been Russian state actors who attacked the Skripals because of the nature of the substance used. Are they going to persist with that explanation in the latest case.
As I asked in my opening post, will there be more action taken against Russia and diplomats expelled? If not, then they owe the world an apology.

devnull

Roger_007 wrote: »

The British went very quiet on the Skripal cases once the two victims had recovered. It suggests to me that they found out from the Skripals that they had been barking up the wrong tree and in order to avoid huge embarrassment on the world stage they thought it better to say nothing more and hope the story would fade away.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me - not sure what more can be said onthe matter truth be told, it's been pretty much exhausted and if they are being given new identities then the government are hardly going to be shouting about what is happening with them.

Franz Von Peppercorn

devnull wrote: »

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me - not sure what more can be said onthe matter truth be told, it's been pretty much exhausted and if they are being given new identities then the government are hardly going to be shouting about what is happening with them.

Of course is a conspiracy theory. So is the Russians did it theory. So is the Russians caused trump and Brexit theory.

These are all conspiracies. Guess what, governments and secret agencies conspire.

thomil

It's an intriguing one alright, especially since the two victims don't seem to have any relevance whatsoever. What I find more interesting however ist the location, Amesbury.

The town might sound unassuming, however there's an airfield on the southern edge of town, Boscombe Down. This airfield is home to the RAF's Air Warfare Centre, the Empire Test Pilot School, and a number of specialised test, research, and aircraft recovery outfits. It is also a possible QRA site. All of this would be of huge interest to a number of foreign intelligence outfits, including the FSB. In my eyes, it is not impossible that the two were "sources" that were about to be uncovered, and therefore had to be neutralised. That is all speculation of course, but it seems to be the only variety that would make sense, since Novichok usually can't just be found on the roadside.

devnull

thomil wrote: »

It's an intriguing one alright, especially since the two victims don't seem to have any relevance whatsoever. What I find more interesting however ist the location, Amesbury.

The town might sound unassuming, however there's an airfield on the southern edge of town, Boscombe Down. This airfield is home to the RAF's Air Warfare Centre, the Empire Test Pilot School, and a number of specialised test, research, and aircraft recovery outfits. It is also a possible QRA site. All of this would be of huge interest to a number of foreign intelligence outfits, including the FSB. In my eyes, it is not impossible that the two were "sources" that were about to be uncovered, and therefore had to be neutralised. That is all speculation of course, but it seems to be the only variety that would make sense, since Novichok usually can't just be found on the roadside.

All of which would suggest that it would be beneficial for the Russians to plant something there because it would help their cause.

2 Scoops

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Putin is untouchable in reality. He can do what he likes.

AllForIt

Every time I see this threads title I add 2 to the previous total. I'm up to 16 people affected now.

Richard Hillman

This proves 2 of 3 things.

1. It proves it was not Russia that committed the original chemical assassination attempt.

2. Russia are trying to set it up to show that it wasn't them

3. Vladimir Putin is the world's Alpha-Male.

Madagascan

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Roger_007 wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/major-incident-amesbury-wiltshire-man-woman-unknown-substance-police-sergei-skripal-salisbury-a8430066.html
Two more victims of "an unknown substance" in Wiltshire.
What's going on in Wiltshire?
Have the Russians struck again?
Are there any diplomats left to expel?

It prob wasn’t the russians last time either

True. And it may be these two that did it.

mcmoustache

devnull wrote: »

All of which would suggest that it would be beneficial for the Russians to plant something there because it would help their cause.

I'm going to wait for the Russian reaction. If they start their vranyo bull**** and start blaming the Brits, I'll lean more towards viewing this as a Russian attack. In the last attack, the Russians went into high gear spreading multiple contradictory conspiracies to confuse the issue. I don't think that's happened yet.

I'm also surprised that the Baltic Russians haven't shown up yet - they're usually all over these threads

Hector Savage

Very strange and scary, they have no connections with the whole "Spy Game" .... wtf happened here ???

mcmoustache

Hector Savage wrote: »

Very strange and scary, they have no connections with the whole "Spy Game" .... wtf happened here ???

We don't have any information except:

It was two Brits living locally around 8 miles from Salisbury.
They were poisoned by the same verve agent as the previous two.
They were in Queen Elizabeth Park, Salisbury on the night before they fell ill - five minutes from where the Skripals collapsed.

We really know feck all at this point.

JimBob Gooseman

They have found the source of the Novichok in a small bottle in Charlie Rowley's home.

Dohnjoe

JimBob Gooseman wrote: »

They have found the source of the Novichok in a small bottle in Charlie Rowley's home.

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

AllForIt

AllForIt wrote: »

Every time I see this threads title I add 2 to the previous total. I'm up to 16 people affected now.

18

Tea drinker

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

Dunno about you guys, but I always bring containers of sh1t back from the park

Franz Von Peppercorn

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

Fairly amateur stuff by those expert putin spies.

Not that I think it’s M15 anymore either. Of course the people who bombed Dublin (amongst other atrocities) wouldn’t have hesitated to kill a Russian and blame Russia but probably wouldn’t have left a container lying around either.

Could be a rogue.

Roger_007

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

I thought the OPCW had been called in on the original Skripals case to provide a 'neutral' investigation and report.
We never heard anything from them. I wonder will they be called in again in the light of the latest development?

batgoat

Roger_007 wrote: »

I thought the OPCW had been called in on the original Skripals case to provide a 'neutral' investigation and report.
We never heard anything from them. I wonder will they be called in again in the light of the latest development?

They backed up assessment up.

http://www.businessinsider.com/skripal-poisoning-opcw-bolsters-uk-assessment-that-russia-to-blame-2018-4

Franz Von Peppercorn

batgoat wrote: »

They backed up assessment up.

http://www.businessinsider.com/skripal-poisoning-opcw-bolsters-uk-assessment-that-russia-to-blame-2018-4

It’s funny how BI spun that.

batgoat

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s funny how BI spun that.

Are all the news sites lying?

The executive summary released by the OPCW does not mention Novichok by name, but states: “The results of the analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirms the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/chemical-weapons-body-confirms-uk-findings-on-wskripals-attack-1.3458706

Are the OPCW also misrepresenting their results? :rolleyes:

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-report-on-technical-assistance-requested-by-the-united-kingdom/

Dohnjoe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Fairly amateur stuff by those expert putin spies.

Experts? this is nothing compared to the murder of Litvinenko. They left a trail of Polonium everywhere; on aircraft, hotels and restaurants, a football stadium. They dumped one batch down a toilet. They took several attempts to poison Litvinenko

This is Mr Peskov's actual statement on Rowley's death - (Russia is) "deeply concerned by the continuing appearance of these poisonous substances on British territory,” which “present a danger not just for the British but for all Europeans.”"

Not a loaded statement at all

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

The UK media reports don't add up Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess were homeless and unemployed according to some of them. But people online have done so some research and found Charlie Rowley home ( obviously not homeless) is worth up 270,000 to 400,00 in that area of Salisbury.

People with good jobs are living in this area professionals checks should be carried out to see if anybody live in this housing estate works for security services, works at Porton Down, or works at a foreign embassy.

If the bottle was found inside the home and not outside that's even more bizarre. You think a bottle outside in 30-degree + heat would melt?

Cheerful Spring

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Experts? this is nothing compared to the murder of Litvinenko. They left a trail of Polonium everywhere; on aircraft, hotels and restaurants, a football stadium. They dumped one batch down a toilet. They took several attempts to poison Litvinenko

This is Mr Peskov's actual statement on Rowley's death - (Russia is) "deeply concerned by the continuing appearance of these poisonous substances on British territory,” which “present a danger not just for the British but for all Europeans.”"

Not a loaded statement at all

There you go again with this even though you have no explanation for why Mario scaramella ended up with p-210 poisoning. This often ignored but Mario met Litvinenko two hours before he met the Russia agents who booked in the hotel with their families. They left a trail because the met Litvinenko was already poisoned by Mario or by someone else at the restaurant.

Folkstonian

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Likely the container used (and then discarded) from the original attack

Porton Down are testing it right now to determine if it's the same batch

Fairly amateur stuff by those expert putin spies.

Not that I think it’s M15 anymore either. Of course the people who bombed Dublin (amongst other atrocities) wouldn’t have hesitated to kill a Russian and blame Russia but probably wouldn’t have left a container lying around either.

Could be a rogue.

It’s MI5, as in military intelligence, section 5. The M15 was a motorway in London.

Every profession has it’s careless and slovenly operators, even international espionage. As already mentioned, maybe you can read about the trail of radioactive breadcrumbs Lugovoy left all over London and right back to Heathrow airport for Scotland Yard to follow back in 2006.

The Russians have shown yet again they have a total disregard for law and human life in the U.K. as they did in the Litvinenko episode

It wouldn’t come as any shock whatsoever if it does emerge the container used to transport the nerve agent was discarded in a public bin after the attack, only for drug addicts to come across it several weeks later.