Water charges revisited?

The Bishop Basher

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Oh man that was funny..

Thank you for the giggles..

Now, back in the real world..

ancapailldorcha

Rennaws wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Oh man that was funny..

Thank you for the giggles..

Now, back in the real world..

Don't post like this again here please.

The Bishop Basher

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

Ok let me state this in a serious way then..

We don't do regulation in Ireland.

That's why we have some of the highest energy prices in Europe.

That's why were paying much higher mortgage interests rates then our friends in Europe.

That's why our banks got away with dodgy lending and accounting practices for so long.

That's why the motor insurance trade continues to fleece us..

We're not capable of regulating ourselves.

There are too many vested interests and too many hands in pots..

We're just too greedy.

LuckyLloyd

The same people who told us the protests would fail; who cheered on every heavy handed Garda intervention and salivated at the thought of Paul Murphy going to jail are in here arguing the same old tired nonsense regarding IW. Ye were wrong, the manner of the introduction was rejected by the people and placed in the political dustbin with the corpse of the Labour Party.

It’s time to move forward. This is an infrastructure issue at a time of historically low interest rates. Like Metrolink, like Bus Connects; like road improvement. Water is paid for via general taxation and what is required is the state to prioritise and fulfil its infrastructure obligations. The charge is off the table for a generation, no point in wallowing in martyrdom for toxic politics.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Ideally I'd like to see a severe drought but localised solely to Jobstown, and maybe a few other places that expect the tax payer to foot the bill for their utility bill when it comes to water (even excess usage!)

The Bishop Basher

Rylan Stale Retirement wrote: »

Ideally I'd like to see a severe drought but localised solely to Jobstown, and maybe a few other places that expect the tax payer to foot the bill for their utility bill when it comes to water (even excess usage!)

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

Rennaws

Rennaws wrote: »

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

So, it’s ok for motorists to pay for everyone’s water? Why not have the people pay for the water ther actually use?

superman28

Nearly 50% of all water before it reaches your tap is lost due to leaks.. we pay nearly double the cost to manage the same amount of water than the UK. Water charges were the best hope to fix the situation but the pathetic weak willed government gave in to populist nonsense.

The money has to come from somewhere,, the "we already pay for water" through general taxation is a lie. We don't use general taxation to fix our broken water supply we use this money just to maintain it..

I would lump it into property tax somehow,, keep monitoring peoples water usage send letters to those who waste water.. we should at least use the water meters that we already spent the money on..

The Bishop Basher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, it’s ok for motorists to pay for everyone’s water? Why not have the people pay for the water ther actually use?

Motorists pay for lots of things used by non motorists. Do you really want to go down that rat hole ?

Anyway, that’s the system the government currently have in place. They tried to change it and the people excercised their democratic right and said no.

If you want to change it, get out and lobby for change like we had to do..

That’s how democracy works..

superman28 wrote: »

I would lump it into property tax somehow,,

Our family home tax is already being used to prop up
Irish Water.

Over 90% of it..

Are you suggesting we double the family home tax ?

superman28 wrote: »

keep monitoring peoples water usage send letters to those who waste water.. we should at least use the water meters that we already spent the money on..

There are hundreds of thousands of households that can’t be metered. Ours included.. How do you monitor their water usage ?

Rennaws

Rennaws wrote: »

There are hundreds of thousands of households that can’t be metered. Ours included.. How do you monitor their water usage ?

In the Uk, households were given a choice. Pay a flat fee or be metered. Meters were installed without any fuss. Guess what? Most pay the metered charge as it was lower. Irish Water is still here. They have ways of identifying areas of excessive use. They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Was there? Despite reading most of the IW threads I don't remember any such claims. Perhaps you can provide a few quotes?

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There was?

Any chance of quoting some of these posters?

Na, didn't think so.

Literally didn't even have to go to the archives first to find a bunch.

nietzy wrote: »

[...] We dont have water shortages in ireland, just shyte infostructure.

If we were clever, we could be an exporter of water. Spain and Portugal right now are having problems every summer with their resovoirs.

the main point here is, why should anyone pay for something that falls out of the sky freely and is a basic human right?

bryanw wrote: »

[...]
I also don't buy from they previous article that a few weeks without rain will cause water shortages. I would be inclined to think its lack of investment in infrastructure. Because if rainfall for May is around 60% of the mean in terms of volume, how does that translate to: no water! Other countries experience much drier weather that us, as a rule, and yet they don't run dry as quickly as we do. I mean, I live on the East coast which usually has much less rain that the west, and yet I haven't been threatened with a shortage (yet), even though I wouldn't hold up the infrastructure as a model here either.[...]

yoshytoshy wrote: »

[...]

The government are using peoples fear of water shortage ,to get more money.

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

The Bishop Basher

Deleted User wrote: »

They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

Every house on our road shares a mains with it's neighbour.

That didn't stop them installing meters though, even when I advised them that it was pointless. They said they knew it was but they were told to install them anyway.

I suppose Dinny has to be paid..

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Uk, households were given a choice. Pay a flat fee or be metered. Meters were installed without any fuss. Guess what? Most pay the metered charge as it was lower. Irish Water is still here. They have ways of identifying areas of excessive use. They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here from certain posters about why we are left with the system that is in place.

FF/SF/PBP or any other bogey men they can think of, aren't responsible for the scrapped charging system we had in place.

FG got together a team of independent experts, with the task of investigating how best to fund our water system.

This expert commission came back, recommended that the charging system be abolished, and that we should continue to fund our water system from general taxation, and look at some way to sanction those deemed to be wasting water.

Personally, if I go to the doctor and he comes up with a diagnosis, and writes a prescription for me, I tend to listen to him/her.

It looks to me like some here would go off and put a sticking plaster over there earlobe when a doctor has diagnosed a chest infection.

Misplaced anger perhaps, but it would appear that FG ultimately brought the charges to an end when they coddled together their experts.

Blaming others for the mess they created is a farce.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yet again I will remind you that water charges were abolished due to the recommendations laid out by an expert commission, put in place by a FG govt.

Are you trying to sell the line that this team of independent experts let themselves be 'misled" and have their arms twisted by SF and PBP:D?

Have you read that report... because that's not exactly what they concluded. They agreed with a free amount to be provided to households (distinguishing between the concept of taxation funded allocation vs additional direct subsidies to the water utility, over which level usage should be paid for directly to the water utility.

The Bishop Basher

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

I remember you telling me that water charges were here to stay, that the government wouldn't back down and we'd all better get used to it.

People can be wrong..

nxbyveromdwjpg

Rennaws wrote: »

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

Its not the areas so much as the people, and you'll know them when you see them -

.

They deserve a drought for refusing to pay their way.

And yes I agree its unfortunate that the pathetic government folded to them, its the tax payer that'll suffer.

FreudianSlippers

Rennaws wrote: »

Ok let me state this in a serious way then..

We don't do regulation in Ireland.

This doesn't make any actual sense; the below comments are not necessarily connected with "regulation"

That's why we have some of the highest energy prices in Europe.

Denmark, German and Belgium have higher energy prices - I'd suggest they "do regulation" quite well.

That's why were paying much higher mortgage interests rates then our friends in Europe.

Mortgage interest rates are not really an issue for regulation other than in terms of sharp practice.

That's why our banks got away with dodgy lending and accounting practices for so long.

That's why the motor insurance trade continues to fleece us..

We're not capable of regulating ourselves.

There are too many vested interests and too many hands in pots..

We're just too greedy.

Honestly the rest of this is just unsupported waffle. I know you think that this is a "serious" post, but it's not grounded in any kind of reality unfortunately.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Literally didn't even have to go to the archives first to find a bunch.

Was there really posters predicting that Ireland would never face water shortages

I'd find that quitea bizarre prediction, considering water shortages/ droughts have been synonymous with heatwaves in this country, pretty much as far back as I can recall.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Was there really posters predicting that Ireland would never face water shortages

I'd find that quitea bizarre prediction, considering water shortages/ droughts have been synonymous with heatwaves in this country, pretty much as far back as I can recall.

I literally put three in my post. There were plenty more if you use the search function and are prepared to do a bit of digging.

FreudianSlippers

Rennaws wrote: »

that the government wouldn't back down and we'd all better get used to it.

I'd be surprised if I said that tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if I said that they shouldn't...

Hitman3000

FreudianSlippers wrote:

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

You need to read Blanchs claim again. The quotes you have used do not despite you thinking otherwise give credibility to his/her claim.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I literally put three in my post. There were plenty more if you use the search function and are prepared to do a bit of digging.

You might want to reread blanches claim.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You need to read Blanchs claim again. The quotes you have used do not despite you thinking otherwise give credibility to his/her claim.

"here were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage"

First page of the search, first quote posted:

"We dont have water shortages in ireland"

Second quote:

"I also don't buy from they previous article that a few weeks without rain will cause water shortages" - blaming infrastructure in terms of transporting water.

Third quote:

...and I paraphrase... there won't be a water shortage, it's just a government conspiracy.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You might want to reread blanches claim.

Were there or were there not people supporting the SF/PBP nonsense position saying that there would not be water shortages?

bladespin

Doubt charges or not would have changed anything, motor tax has been here for decades and the roads still melted.

NIMAN

This heatwave is a blessing in disguise for IW and the Gov.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Were there or were there not people supporting the SF/PBP nonsense position saying that there would not be water shortages?

No, and why you are attempting to tie their comments to SF/PBP bogeymen is confusing too.

Did either of those political parties state that Ireland would never face water shortages

Hitman3000

So you wish to ignore the report published in the last few days that claims over 50% is lost through leakage before the tap? IW claims that full capacity is 610 million litres, demand is touching on 608 million in Dublin. One can safely assume over 600 million is leaking into the ground.

FreudianSlippers

bladespin wrote: »

Doubt charges or not would have changed anything, motor tax has been here for decades and the roads still melted.

Don't disagree with this - arguably, allowing Irish Water to operate as a semi-private utility would potentially have resulted in better investment in infrastructure. Your point exactly, the government has had a fairly awful track record of using the money they raise to fund roads, hospitals, infrastructure; surely attempting a better way is worth it?

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

No, and why you are attempting to tie their comments to SF/PBP bogeymen is confusing too.

Did either of those political parties state that Ireland would never face water shortages

Now I think you need to re-read Blanch's post. They don't claim that SF/PBP politicians were on Boards.ie saying that there would never be shortages...