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Water charges revisited?

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    #92
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »
    Charging again for water will not make improve our water service, and was never going to.

    It was such a blatant attempt to fleece people and hand the money over to already rich businessmen in sweetheart deals, that there will be no way to convince the public otherwise, ever. People would love to blame the non-payers if we havr trouble with in future but it became a lightning rod for people to express how fed up they were with the corruption and incompetence in our government, and their inability to collect a water charge is their fault, for being so corrupt and incompetent over and over again.

    'Oh, well now we really have a problem and we need to ask you again for money for water. We promise we won't spend it on logos and laughing yoga classes this time and we won't put guys like the guy who bankrupted Sligo (and already was on insane money with a golden handshake and pension) on the board and all that type of craic this time, we promise.'

    Yeah, that just won't wash.


    I just cannot believe that there are still people spouting the nonsense in bold.

    There was no plan to privatise.
    There was no plan for sweetheart deals.

    What I can tell you is that now that we are facing the water shortages predicted by the supporters of water charges, there seems to be no sign of the countless posters who were telling us time and again that Ireland doesn't have a water supply issue because it rains so much. They got that one wrong.


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    #93
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Actually.....


    We are experiencing water shortages due the above average temperatures and unusual dry spell, (hear wave).

    Water shortages have been long associated with heatwaves in this country for years, and undoubtedly will remain so well into the future, with or without your majestical Irish Water.

    I shall remind you once again that the country is currently devoid of a system of direct charging for water usage due to the findings of an expert commission put in place by a fine gael govt.

    You and blanch (despite being fairly regular posters in water and politics threads) seem to keep missing that fact either purposely or unknowingly.

    Perhaps try channelling some of your obvious anger and butt hurt towards them, instead of your various scapegoats. ;)


    There is a lot of blame to throw around in relation to water charges.

    The behaviour of the charlatans like Sinn Fein, Paul Murphy et al. was the worst.
    FF changing their mind twice was not unexpected, but typically depressing.
    FG were weak by allowing FF to force them into the expert commission route in the negotiations for government. They should have had another election.

    But mostly the people themselves who believed we had an endless supply of water (shown up today to be completely false), who believed we all had a divine right to water, who believed the fairy tales about privatisation and what forming a company means etc. They were all fools taken in by the conmen of the left.


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    #94
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    The Uk which has a system of direct water charges since their water supplies got privatised in the late 1980,s yet despite direct charging for water + privatisation- there is still talk of possible water shortage to hit the Uk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-weather-latest-water-shortage-hosepipe-ban-northern-ireland-forecast-heatwave-a8422401.html

    https://news.sky.com/story/water-shortages-warning-on-hottest-day-of-the-year-11419923


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    #95
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    The Uk which has a system of direct water charges since their water supplies got privatised in the late 1980,s yet despite direct charging for water + privatisation- there is still talk of possible water shortage to hit the Uk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-weather-latest-water-shortage-hosepipe-ban-northern-ireland-forecast-heatwave-a8422401.html

    https://news.sky.com/story/water-shortages-warning-on-hottest-day-of-the-year-11419923


    They privatised, we were never going to do that.


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    #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    The Uk which has a system of direct water charges since their water supplies got privatised in the late 1980,s yet despite direct charging for water + privatisation- there is still talk of possible water shortage to hit the Uk.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-weather-latest-water-shortage-hosepipe-ban-northern-ireland-forecast-heatwave-a8422401.html

    https://news.sky.com/story/water-shortages-warning-on-hottest-day-of-the-year-11419923

    It’s not a shortage of water. It’s struggling to treat enough to supply the increased demand, hence the hose pipe ban. I’ve seen some posts on Facebook of Irish home made pools leaking away and a hose running continually to keep them filled! Shur, they’re not paying for it so what’s the problem?


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    #97
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It’s not a shortage of water. It’s struggling to treat enough to supply the increased demand, hence the hose pipe ban. I’ve seen some posts on Facebook of Irish home made pools leaking away and a hose running continually to keep them filled! Shur, they’re not paying for it so what’s the problem?

    Even if we were all paying water charges it would only be enough to keep the lights on at Irish Water..

    It would have made zero difference to investement in the infrastructure.

    Seeing as you ask, the problem is that successive governments throughout previous decades have failed to prioritize and invest in our infrastructure despite introducing taxes to do so.. sound familiar ??


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    #98
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It’s not a shortage of water. It’s struggling to treat enough to supply the increased demand, hence the hose pipe ban. I’ve seen some posts on Facebook of Irish home made pools leaking away and a hose running continually to keep them filled! Shur, they’re not paying for it so what’s the problem?

    Who is paying for it then? Is it magic free water they're getting pumped into their abode, cos I know Simon Coveney was reminding us a while ago about just how much it took to keep the water services running.

    Oh and by the way, if water charges were still here under FGs regimes they'd still be free to leave their hoses on, as they seen fit to cap charges, and only meter some people, while averaging the others.

    Get over it maryanne, they buckled and bent.


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    #99
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Ironically I didn’t mind the water charge as much as the property tax. At least you are actually getting something for the charge!

    But my issue with water charges was that it was setting us up for private water companies. As soon as we hit another financial meltdown (question is only when) there will be plenty of private companies happy to bail us out if we just let them look after our water system.

    I would love it enshrined in our constitution that there are no conditions that our water can be privatized. It’s literally the most important thing in our lives and yet most of the worlds water supply is in private hands. Ever wonder why ??


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    #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Even if we were all paying water charges it would only be enough to keep the lights on at Irish Water..

    It would have made zero difference to investement in the infrastructure

    I do believe that your misinformation was pointed out to you before. Every new business has set up charges. These are usually one offs and very different from running charges.


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    #101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Political suicide.
    FG ruined it with their built for sale version of IW

    They were looking at lining their pockets (privately) and that of their close supporter, in a few years, but were seen through.

    They also refused to guarantee that IW would be solely used for network upgrade and repair. Just like how property tax was meant to be a supplement income for local government, it really meant that central government slashed the funds being given to local. Along with redirecting funds elsewhere.

    If they had stated IW can not be sold, all funds raised will service the network, and rates drop as the network is repaired there would have been no mass protests.
    Just the regular rabble


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    #102
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Who is paying for it then? Is it magic free water they're getting pumped into their abode, cos I know Simon Coveney was reminding us a while ago about just how much it took to keep the water services running.

    Oh and by the way, if water charges were still here under FGs regimes they'd still be free to leave their hoses on, as they seen fit to cap charges, and only meter some people, while averaging the others.

    Get over it maryanne, they buckled and bent.

    I know this is a political forum, I posted it on here to see if anyone would go beyond the politics of it and see the sense in charging for water really as opposed to gaining votes by avoiding them.
    Its still being politicised though as a means to say we can put you in your place because its easier to sell a perceived personal payment as against a taxpayer funded one.
    Water supply and waste disposal isn't free of course, nobody thinks it is, but when you lump it in with general taxation funding of all other services, like all other services then it is never going to get the full funding needed to improve it to a more sustainable and better service.
    Irish water is still here, the big bogeyman, but people aren't marching about it, ever wonder why?
    Its off peoples radar really once people imagine its not costing them, but it still is, just not their wallet as such.
    I just think we need to get beyond that personally, I think we should have a better service and that a single entity, with ability to borrow on its own would be the best solution.
    I'd have no problem with a constitutional clause that keep water in public ownership either, that might help allay fears of privatisation.


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    #103
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Every new business has set up charges. These are usually one offs and very different from running charges.

    I'm amazed people are still so deluded after all that has gone on but here we go..

    Yes of course Maryanne84 I have no doubt that Irish Water is a bastion of efficiency.

    Should we include the 1000's of extra local authority staff that weren't needed as a one off charge or are they counted as running costs :confused:

    Did they also get to benefit from the €3m in bonus's, laughing yoga, inhouse gym etc ?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-water-staff-share-3m-bonus-despite-overly-high-costs-at-utility-35607221.html

    And what exactly are they all doing now :confused:

    We know Tierney jumped the sinking ship with over half a million in his claw but what about the rest of them ?

    And despite all of the above, you seem to have skipped over the crucial point in my post, that we already pay for water through taxation.

    Motor tax has only ever increased since they added 3% on to cover our water. You can't blame the people for mismanagement of the government purse. That blame lies squarely at the feet of the politicians and those few civil servants who seem to hold all the power behind the scenes.

    Isn't amazing though how they always seem to find the money when they really really have to..

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-public-sector-pay-deal-what-it-means-for-you-1.3112319


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    #104
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Edward M wrote: »
    I know this is a political forum, I posted it on here to see if anyone would go beyond the politics of it and see the sense in charging for water really as opposed to gaining votes by avoiding them.
    Its still being politicised though as a means to say we can put you in your place because its easier to sell a perceived personal payment as against a taxpayer funded one.
    Water supply and waste disposal isn't free of course, nobody thinks it is, but when you lump it in with general taxation funding of all other services, like all other services then it is never going to get the full funding needed to improve it to a more sustainable and better service.
    Irish water is still here, the big bogeyman, but people aren't marching about it, ever wonder why?
    Its off peoples radar really once people imagine its not costing them, but it still is, just not their wallet as such.
    I just think we need to get beyond that personally, I think we should have a better service and that a single entity, with ability to borrow on its own would be the best solution.
    I'd have no problem with a constitutional clause that keep water in public ownership either, that might help allay fears of privatisation.

    Brilliant post.


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    #105
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Rennaws wrote: »
    I'm amazed people are still so deluded after all that has gone on but here we go..

    Yes of course Maryanne84 I have no doubt that Irish Water is a bastion of efficiency.

    Should we include the 1000's of extra local authority staff that weren't needed as a one off charge or are they counted as running costs :confused:

    Did they also get to benefit from the €3m in bonus's, laughing yoga, inhouse gym etc ?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-water-staff-share-3m-bonus-despite-overly-high-costs-at-utility-35607221.html

    And what exactly are they all doing now :confused:

    We know Tierney jumped the sinking ship with over half a million in his claw but what about the rest of them ?

    And despite all of the above, you seem to have skipped over the crucial point in my post, that we already pay for water through taxation.

    Motor tax has only ever increased since they added 3% on to cover our water. You can't blame the people for mismanagement of the government purse. That blame lies squarely at the feet of the politicians and those few civil servants who seem to hold all the power behind the scenes.

    Isn't amazing though how they always seem to find the money when they really really have to..

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-public-sector-pay-deal-what-it-means-for-you-1.3112319


    I see you're one of the conspiracy theorists.



    The gods are no longer blamed; now it is powerful men or groups - sinister pressure groups whose wickedness is responsible for all the evils we suffer from.


    Time to grow up!


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    #106
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Rennaws wrote: »
    No. We have no water charges because WE insisted so..

    Or at least a significant number of us..

    FF were in favour of charges until they saw the popular vote disappear and so they jumped on the bandwagon, as they tend to do, and everyone else who called us scum and spongers at the time are now busy collecting their refunds :D


    Wholly wrong there.


    Until FF decided, for the usual political gamesmanship, to jump on the bandwagon and make it the dominant issue in the joint program for Govt it would never have got anywhere. Apparently 603 words on Irish Water and 10 on Child Poverty in that program.


    I used to think it was Cowan's call but I have heard it was Martin himself.


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    #107
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Water charges, who f**ked up the introduction of them.... well let's look at some of the nonsense. Laughing yoga, fleet of Audis, bonuses before any work done. Under who's watch and tenure FINE GAEL.


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    #108
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    Good loser wrote: »
    Wholly wrong there.

    Until FF decided, for the usual political gamesmanship, to jump on the bandwagon and make it the dominant issue in the joint program for Govt it would never have got anywhere. Apparently 603 words on Irish Water and 10 on Child Poverty in that program.

    I used to think it was Cowan's call but I have heard it was Martin himself.

    I think you completely missed the point of my post which can often happen when posting past the witching hour. I'm not going to re-explain it for you other then to say you must be the only person in Ireland who doesn't credit the power of people protesting with the numerous u-turns by both FG and FF on this issue.
    Good loser wrote: »
    I see you're one of the conspiracy theorists.

    The gods are no longer blamed; now it is powerful men or groups - sinister pressure groups whose wickedness is responsible for all the evils we suffer from.

    Time to grow up!

    What are you on about :confused: I listed a bunch of facts and yes of course I'm going to blame people and / or groups for the debacle that was Irish Water. Who else are we going to blame ?

    Maybe time to sober up or go to bed.

    You're posting nonsense.


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    #109
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Brilliant post.

    Did you just say brilliant post to a poster who seems to completely disagree with your sentiments :confused:


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    #110
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Water charges, who f**ked up the introduction of them.... well let's look at some of the nonsense. Laughing yoga, fleet of Audis, bonuses before any work done. Under who's watch and tenure FINE GAEL.

    All of those are examples of how small-minded politics is nowadays. TDs starting bills about phones in schools for example. A few yoga classes for employees is no big deal. A bonus scheme like every other semi-state company in the country is not unusual etc. etc. Yet some people talked about these as if they were the end of the world. Ridiculous over-hyped nonsense.


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    #111
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Even if we were all paying water charges it would only be enough to keep the lights on at Irish Water..

    Not true, those figures included the set-up costs, by year 3, which would have been last year, the surplus would have been growing, Irish Water would have been off the state books and able to borrow on its own back, rather than having to compete for state investment with hospitals and schools and roads.

    Rennaws wrote: »
    It would have made zero difference to investement in the infrastructure.

    Seeing as you ask, the problem is that successive governments throughout previous decades have failed to prioritize and invest in our infrastructure despite introducing taxes to do so.. sound familiar ??

    And they wanted to solve the problem by introducing water charges, which would have brought a separate income source, and put Irish Water off-books and enable investment.

    The populist charlatans like SF and Paul Murphy should hang their heads in shame.


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    #112
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    The populist charlatans like SF and Paul Murphy should hang their heads in shame.


    Blaming SF and Murphy for FG's monumental screw up?


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    #113
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    As already was responded to this is not based on any published line. Detractors because they believed it would be.
    They didn't set up IW in the manner they did because they are stupid. It was no accident the sweet deal was so sweet, (currently under investigation), it was no accident 'we look after our own', the board appointments weren't a lottery. The consultant fees were at their discretion. So you believe these self interested parties would never privatise? What's wrong with privatisation of water? Companies are profit led not quality led. And the public would be held to ransom IMO. Would we see repairs slowed in rural areas where there wasn't enough profit for them to rush into it? We should never privatise essential services.

    Any issues with the quality of food you had this morning? Because it was private companies that supplied and sold it to you?


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    #114
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    salonfire wrote: »
    Any issues with the quality of food you had this morning? Because it was private companies that supplied and sold it to you?

    You also have a vast array of vendors to choose from..

    It’s a pointless comparison.

    Imagine there was only one motor insurance company who could charge what they liked and you’d be getting a bit closer..


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    #115
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    Rennaws wrote: »
    Imagine there was only one motor insurance company who could charge what they liked and you’d be getting a bit closer..

    Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.


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    #116
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,347 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Blaming SF and Murphy for FG's monumental screw up?


    The people were misled by the charlatans in SF and PBP. There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.

    It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.


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    #117
    NinetyTwoTeam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

    like the bins and the electricity, yeah they hardly ever go up. would you cop on.

    irish water and the charges they tried to bring in was not set up to fix leaks, it was just a money grab. IW spent a fortune on stuff that had nothing to do with fixing infrastructure issues or safeguarding supply, it was all about metering and collecting and marketing to try and make people aware of their 'brand'.

    it was the typical combination of greed and incompetence that epitomizes our main gov parties modus operandi.


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    #118
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.


    It's a pity FG didn't try to ram a crony infested entity down the throat of an austerity tired populace. Imagine if FG's favourite friend Mr D O'B wasn't involved, so much ammunition against IW by that individuals involvement alone. Again the mess that was the setup and waste is all the fault of FG and no one else despite your claims to the contrary.


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    #119
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    blanch152 wrote:
    There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.


    Was there? Despite reading most of the IW threads I don't remember any such claims. Perhaps you can provide a few quotes?


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    #120
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    The people were misled by the charlatans in SF and PBP.

    Yet again I will remind you that water charges were abolished due to the recommendations laid out by an expert commission, put in place by a FG govt.

    Are you trying to sell the line that this team of independent experts let themselves be 'misled" and have their arms twisted by SF and PBP:D?
    There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.
    There was?

    Any chance of quoting some of these posters?

    Na, didn't think so.
    It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

    Come on Blanch, FG need to take ownership of the mess they put together and oversaw. One lad has FF on the hook for everything, you have the shinners and Murphy on it.

    Billion euro omnishambles.


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    #121
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

    Why do you use the term "mob" ?

    I was on many marches with tens of thousands of people and I picketed numerous estates locally to stop the meter vans getting in. I never saw the slightest hint of trouble. Even at the large march in Dublin there was a carnival like atmosphere and plenty of young children about.

    You wouldn't know cause you weren't there but if you doubt me you can go check the stats. There were zero arrests.

    The last time I got involved in anything and marched in opposition was also with 10000 people around the streets of Dublin against the illegal invasion of Iraq. It had a similar carnival type atmosphere. We even brought our young children in buggies.

    Were we also a mob then or does it depend on whether you agree or not :confused:

    Do you not believe in democratic principals :confused:

    How do you suggest people should protest :confused:


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