Water charges revisited?

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

The people to blame are those who went on water protests, who blocked installation of water meters, who refused to accept the democratically imposed water charges.

Protest is also a democratic right.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You are keen on fairness, that's why I referenced how my friend and I pay the same amount of property tax but one rural /one urban.

I'm like the least keen person on fairness.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So the placing of a junior ministers driver on the board of IW was normal ? The media just decided to put a nasty spin on it?

I was small beer, of little or no importance in the scheme of things. If the price of no water shortages this summer was one junior minister's driver on a board, then that is a small price to pay.

And what is wrong with a driver being put on a board? Was he unqualified for the job? Are you saying that you need to be a company law expert to be put on a board? It is snobbery to suggest that someone who drives for a living isn't able to serve on a board.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Protest is also a democratic right.

Of course protest is a democratic right.

But that doesn't mean that a particular protest isn't stupid, misguided, ignorant, dangerously populist, crazy or wrong. And the Irish Water protests were all of those.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

A game-changer was water charges because if gave Irish Water independent income, allowed it to borrow and centralised the provision of water and decisions in relation to infrastructure. An absolute no-brainer, yet there were really stupid protests led by opportunistic populist politicians that caused the whole thing to be compromised.

You constantly seek to blame everyone other than the incompetence of FG or Labour for the debacle that they alone created. As soon as Hogan mentioned consultants receiving circa 80 million euro at a time of severe cut backs( disabled children loosing their medical card one example) that was the start of the end. The nonsense only got worse, D O Briens good luck in winning several contracts, but yeah it's everyone else's fault.

blanch152

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Now I think you need to re-read Blanch's post. They don't claim that SF/PBP politicians were on Boards.ie saying that there would never be shortages...

It is like the water charges threads all over again, where those who oppose water charges are parsing sentences, misquoting and misinterpreting in order to make a superficial point.

At the end of the day, those who supported water charges predicted a day like this would come if uncapped water charges were not imposed as a demand control measure. They were right, those who opposed water charges were wrong.

"We don't need water charges because Ireland is full of water" - how often did we hear that said.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

And money needed to rectify this situation. There is no magic money tree.

Plenty of money on the money tree for grants, some even paid their motor tax out of said grant.

Hitman3000

FreudianSlippers wrote:

Inherently unfair.

Ok so.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You constantly seek to blame everyone other than the incompetence of FG or Labour for the debacle that they alone created. As soon as Hogan mentioned consultants receiving circa 80 million euro at a time of severe cut backs( disabled children loosing their medical card one example) that was the start of the end. The nonsense only got worse, D O Briens good luck in winning several contracts, but yeah it's everyone else's fault.

You really don't get it. For all you know, the 80 million was actually needed to be spent and was a more cost-effective way than hiring hundreds of people who would have jobs for life.

You just saw 80 million on consultants and went off on a protest. Here is a story for you:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/hospital-consultants-to-get-payrises-of-up-to-72k-in-windfall-37013652.html

€200m in back-money and €60m a year every year going forward for a couple of hundred medical consultants, and not a single improvement in services. Where are the protests about that? You would fix a lot of leaks with that money.

The €80m one-off spend on Irish Water was going to save the State an awful lot of money in the longer-term and help fix the water supply problem that we are now facing. The stupidity of the water protests is really coming home now.

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Plenty of money on the money tree for grants, some even paid their motor tax out of said grant.

At least it went back into the countries coffers.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

The €80m one-off spend on Irish Water was going to save the State an awful lot of money in the longer-term and help fix the water supply problem that we are now facing. The stupidity of the water protests is really coming home now.

It wasn't just a one off 80 million cost as you well know. A nice expensive call centre has to be paid along with performance bonuses etc etc. Now again, FG and their incompetence is what has caused the present mess despite you seeking to apportion blame everywhere except where it belings

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

€200m in back-money and €60m a year every year going forward for a couple of hundred medical consultants, and not a single improvement in services. Where are the protests about that? You would fix a lot of leaks with that money.

Pay rises in the public sector would in my opinion be a topic for a different thread. Didn't TD's get an extra 5 k last year? Not huge money but would fix a few leaks too.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

At least it went back into the countries coffers.

It was a conservation grant, seems incredibly dishonest to claim a Grant and use it for a purpose other than what it was intended.

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It wasn't just a one off 80 million cost as you well know. A nice expensive call centre has to be paid along with performance bonuses etc etc. Now again, FG and their incompetence is what has caused the present mess despite you seeking to apportion blame everywhere except where it belings

I think it’s people using more water than can safely be replaced that’s causing the current shortage. But, why let facts get in the way of a bit of government bashing.

Hitman3000

Deleted User wrote:

I think it’s people using more water than can safely be replaced that’s causing the current shortage. But, why let facts get in the way of a bit of government bashing.

The 50% leakage rate is what's causing the real problem. Government bashing? Stating incompetence of two government parties in the manner in which they set up a utility is not bashing but stating the obvious.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Plenty of money on the money tree for grants, some even paid their motor tax out of said grant.

Motor tax is a ridiculous tax in fairness.

thomas 123

Deleted User wrote: »

And money needed to rectify this situation. There is no magic money tree.

"Face palm"

Yes, Lets just sign everything over to the government im sure it will be fine.

What are they doing with all the USC(Temporary tax) money, Property tax, Road Tax, PRSI, PAYE, CGT??

Lets ask how did it get so bad in the first place? (50% leakage in the system).

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

"Face palm"

Yes, Lets just sign everything over to the government im sure it will be fine.

What are they doing with all the USC(Temporary tax) money, Property tax, Road Tax, PRSI, PAYE, CGT??

Lets ask how did it get so bad in the first place? (50% leakage in the system).

So are you arguing for a fully private system of water infrastructure?

thomas 123

Absolutely not & I'm sure you know that.

Our Government have kindly sold off enough of our natural resources.

How long would it take before Irish Water is "unsustainable" and gets sold off to the highest bidder.

And of course they have enough of our money at this point to work on the water infrastructure.

FreudianSlippers

So we can't give money to the government, we can't give it to private companies... who do you suggest we have manage our water? Just nobody and see how it goes?

thomas 123

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

BarryD2

blanch152 wrote: »

An absolute no-brainer, yet there were really stupid protests led by opportunistic populist politicians that caused the whole thing to be compromised.

Metered water charges were and are an absolute no brainer and some people allowed themselves to be manipulated and used by both elected and unelected characters, to oppose what was in their own best interests. Madness.

Nobody likes paying tax, but if they have to be paid, people want to see the money spent on clearly identifiable projects that improve their lives. Such was the case with water charges and now the suckers who swallowed the Ogle line may suffer.

BarryD2

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The 50% leakage rate is what's causing the real problem. Government bashing?

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

thomas 123

BarryD2 wrote: »

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

Would the problem here not be the rest of us paying for water already?(I too am on a GWS)

Why does it have to be an us vs them mentality?

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

1. The government quite clearly does not have enough money - that's just factual and there is a mountain of evidence to support that;
2. Throwing money at it would totally solve the problem - we even know how much money we need;
3. That "call center" was supposed to be a utility company and protesters who know nothing about infrastructure, government spending or, frankly, much of anything turned it into this.

FreudianSlippers

BarryD2 wrote: »

Whatever the leakage rate is, just pony up and get it fixed. If you're on a public water supply, then pony up and pay to have it fixed and improved. The rest of us already paying our own way for water have no interest in bailing you out.

I think that was the initial plan for Irish Water - they could borrow the money as a semi-private utility and make the repairs, keeping the cost of the borrowing off the books (and therefore within EU budgetary rules) whilst also complying with the "polluter pays principle" by ensuring high-use customers are paying for this use.

Irish Water, despite the conspiracy theorists claiming otherwise, was never about profitability of water - it was about ensuring that water infrastructure development and funding were kept off-book and ensuring that we weren't fined by the EU for failure to comply with the WSD. Certainly, the expert report dealt with the WSD compliance problem but it did nothing to address the infrastructure borrowing quandary.

FreudianSlippers

Oh by the way, I just checked again and it's going to cost at least €13bn to fix the water infrastructure in Ireland.

thomas 123

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

1. The government quite clearly does not have enough money - that's just factual and there is a mountain of evidence to support that;
2. Throwing money at it would totally solve the problem - we even know how much money we need;
3. That "call center" was supposed to be a utility company and protesters who know nothing about infrastructure, government spending or, frankly, much of anything turned it into this.

1.A.Rainy day fund - enough money to put away to give to the EU at a later date... B. NDP, why no mention of water there? Im sure we could come up with more examples if needed.

2.USC & Property Tax & VAT @23%? They didn't have it before the recession now we are doing great apparently? why not use this or whats it being spent on?

3.It became quite clear what it was when people refused to pay. Imagine if the people of rural Ireland where asked to pay for high speed internet years before they received it.

fxotoole

thomas 123 wrote: »

The point im making is The government have enough money.

The problem is how they spend it.

Throwing money in any direction is not going to fix the water problem.

Creating a billing entity with a call center to call people to ask for money and spending millions on water meters definitely isn't going to fix it...

They don't have nearly enough money to deal with the water infrastructure properly. Not matter whatever way you slice it, water charges are inevitable.

FreudianSlippers

thomas 123 wrote: »

1.A.Rainy day fund - enough money to put away to give to the EU at a later date...

1. The so-called "rainy day fund" is not to give to the EU.
2. It doesn't exist yet.
3. It's expected to be €1.5bn - so about half the cost of fixing pipes in Dublin.

B. NDP, why no mention of water there? Im sure we could come up with more examples if needed.

NDP 2018-2027, Chapter 5, Page 83 - National Strategic Outcome 9. Sustainable Management of Water and other Environmental Resources

2.USC & Property Tax & VAT @23%? They didn't have it before the recession now we are doing great apparently? why not use this or whats it being spent on?

We have a government deficit of 0.3% of GDP - simply put, we don't take in as much money as we spend.

3.It became quite clear what it was when people refused to pay. Imagine if the people of rural Ireland where asked to pay for high speed internet years before they received it.

Nobody, to my knowledge, was being asked to pay for water before they received it.