Water charges revisited?

Edward M

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Who is paying for it then? Is it magic free water they're getting pumped into their abode, cos I know Simon Coveney was reminding us a while ago about just how much it took to keep the water services running.

Oh and by the way, if water charges were still here under FGs regimes they'd still be free to leave their hoses on, as they seen fit to cap charges, and only meter some people, while averaging the others.

Get over it maryanne, they buckled and bent.

I know this is a political forum, I posted it on here to see if anyone would go beyond the politics of it and see the sense in charging for water really as opposed to gaining votes by avoiding them.
Its still being politicised though as a means to say we can put you in your place because its easier to sell a perceived personal payment as against a taxpayer funded one.
Water supply and waste disposal isn't free of course, nobody thinks it is, but when you lump it in with general taxation funding of all other services, like all other services then it is never going to get the full funding needed to improve it to a more sustainable and better service.
Irish water is still here, the big bogeyman, but people aren't marching about it, ever wonder why?
Its off peoples radar really once people imagine its not costing them, but it still is, just not their wallet as such.
I just think we need to get beyond that personally, I think we should have a better service and that a single entity, with ability to borrow on its own would be the best solution.
I'd have no problem with a constitutional clause that keep water in public ownership either, that might help allay fears of privatisation.

The Bishop Basher

Deleted User wrote: »

Every new business has set up charges. These are usually one offs and very different from running charges.

I'm amazed people are still so deluded after all that has gone on but here we go..

Yes of course Maryanne84 I have no doubt that Irish Water is a bastion of efficiency.

Should we include the 1000's of extra local authority staff that weren't needed as a one off charge or are they counted as running costs

Did they also get to benefit from the €3m in bonus's, laughing yoga, inhouse gym etc ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-water-staff-share-3m-bonus-despite-overly-high-costs-at-utility-35607221.html

And what exactly are they all doing now

We know Tierney jumped the sinking ship with over half a million in his claw but what about the rest of them ?

And despite all of the above, you seem to have skipped over the crucial point in my post, that we already pay for water through taxation.

Motor tax has only ever increased since they added 3% on to cover our water. You can't blame the people for mismanagement of the government purse. That blame lies squarely at the feet of the politicians and those few civil servants who seem to hold all the power behind the scenes.

Isn't amazing though how they always seem to find the money when they really really have to..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-public-sector-pay-deal-what-it-means-for-you-1.3112319

Edward M

Edward M wrote: »

I know this is a political forum, I posted it on here to see if anyone would go beyond the politics of it and see the sense in charging for water really as opposed to gaining votes by avoiding them.
Its still being politicised though as a means to say we can put you in your place because its easier to sell a perceived personal payment as against a taxpayer funded one.
Water supply and waste disposal isn't free of course, nobody thinks it is, but when you lump it in with general taxation funding of all other services, like all other services then it is never going to get the full funding needed to improve it to a more sustainable and better service.
Irish water is still here, the big bogeyman, but people aren't marching about it, ever wonder why?
Its off peoples radar really once people imagine its not costing them, but it still is, just not their wallet as such.
I just think we need to get beyond that personally, I think we should have a better service and that a single entity, with ability to borrow on its own would be the best solution.
I'd have no problem with a constitutional clause that keep water in public ownership either, that might help allay fears of privatisation.

Brilliant post.

Good loser

Rennaws wrote: »

I'm amazed people are still so deluded after all that has gone on but here we go..

Yes of course Maryanne84 I have no doubt that Irish Water is a bastion of efficiency.

Should we include the 1000's of extra local authority staff that weren't needed as a one off charge or are they counted as running costs

Did they also get to benefit from the €3m in bonus's, laughing yoga, inhouse gym etc ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/irish-water-staff-share-3m-bonus-despite-overly-high-costs-at-utility-35607221.html

And what exactly are they all doing now

We know Tierney jumped the sinking ship with over half a million in his claw but what about the rest of them ?

And despite all of the above, you seem to have skipped over the crucial point in my post, that we already pay for water through taxation.

Motor tax has only ever increased since they added 3% on to cover our water. You can't blame the people for mismanagement of the government purse. That blame lies squarely at the feet of the politicians and those few civil servants who seem to hold all the power behind the scenes.

Isn't amazing though how they always seem to find the money when they really really have to..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-public-sector-pay-deal-what-it-means-for-you-1.3112319

I see you're one of the conspiracy theorists.



The gods are no longer blamed; now it is powerful men or groups - sinister pressure groups whose wickedness is responsible for all the evils we suffer from.


Time to grow up!

Good loser

Rennaws wrote: »

No. We have no water charges because WE insisted so..

Or at least a significant number of us..

FF were in favour of charges until they saw the popular vote disappear and so they jumped on the bandwagon, as they tend to do, and everyone else who called us scum and spongers at the time are now busy collecting their refunds

Wholly wrong there.


Until FF decided, for the usual political gamesmanship, to jump on the bandwagon and make it the dominant issue in the joint program for Govt it would never have got anywhere. Apparently 603 words on Irish Water and 10 on Child Poverty in that program.


I used to think it was Cowan's call but I have heard it was Martin himself.

Hitman3000

Water charges, who f**ked up the introduction of them.... well let's look at some of the nonsense. Laughing yoga, fleet of Audis, bonuses before any work done. Under who's watch and tenure FINE GAEL.

The Bishop Basher

Good loser wrote: »

Wholly wrong there.

Until FF decided, for the usual political gamesmanship, to jump on the bandwagon and make it the dominant issue in the joint program for Govt it would never have got anywhere. Apparently 603 words on Irish Water and 10 on Child Poverty in that program.

I used to think it was Cowan's call but I have heard it was Martin himself.

I think you completely missed the point of my post which can often happen when posting past the witching hour. I'm not going to re-explain it for you other then to say you must be the only person in Ireland who doesn't credit the power of people protesting with the numerous u-turns by both FG and FF on this issue.

Good loser wrote: »

I see you're one of the conspiracy theorists.

The gods are no longer blamed; now it is powerful men or groups - sinister pressure groups whose wickedness is responsible for all the evils we suffer from.

Time to grow up!

What are you on about I listed a bunch of facts and yes of course I'm going to blame people and / or groups for the debacle that was Irish Water. Who else are we going to blame ?

Maybe time to sober up or go to bed.

You're posting nonsense.

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

Brilliant post.

Did you just say brilliant post to a poster who seems to completely disagree with your sentiments

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Water charges, who f**ked up the introduction of them.... well let's look at some of the nonsense. Laughing yoga, fleet of Audis, bonuses before any work done. Under who's watch and tenure FINE GAEL.

All of those are examples of how small-minded politics is nowadays. TDs starting bills about phones in schools for example. A few yoga classes for employees is no big deal. A bonus scheme like every other semi-state company in the country is not unusual etc. etc. Yet some people talked about these as if they were the end of the world. Ridiculous over-hyped nonsense.

blanch152

Rennaws wrote: »

Even if we were all paying water charges it would only be enough to keep the lights on at Irish Water..

Not true, those figures included the set-up costs, by year 3, which would have been last year, the surplus would have been growing, Irish Water would have been off the state books and able to borrow on its own back, rather than having to compete for state investment with hospitals and schools and roads.

Rennaws wrote: »

It would have made zero difference to investement in the infrastructure.

Seeing as you ask, the problem is that successive governments throughout previous decades have failed to prioritize and invest in our infrastructure despite introducing taxes to do so.. sound familiar ??

And they wanted to solve the problem by introducing water charges, which would have brought a separate income source, and put Irish Water off-books and enable investment.

The populist charlatans like SF and Paul Murphy should hang their heads in shame.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

The populist charlatans like SF and Paul Murphy should hang their heads in shame.

Blaming SF and Murphy for FG's monumental screw up?

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As already was responded to this is not based on any published line. Detractors because they believed it would be.
They didn't set up IW in the manner they did because they are stupid. It was no accident the sweet deal was so sweet, (currently under investigation), it was no accident 'we look after our own', the board appointments weren't a lottery. The consultant fees were at their discretion. So you believe these self interested parties would never privatise? What's wrong with privatisation of water? Companies are profit led not quality led. And the public would be held to ransom IMO. Would we see repairs slowed in rural areas where there wasn't enough profit for them to rush into it? We should never privatise essential services.

Any issues with the quality of food you had this morning? Because it was private companies that supplied and sold it to you?

The Bishop Basher

salonfire wrote: »

Any issues with the quality of food you had this morning? Because it was private companies that supplied and sold it to you?

You also have a vast array of vendors to choose from..

It’s a pointless comparison.

Imagine there was only one motor insurance company who could charge what they liked and you’d be getting a bit closer..

mickoneill31

Rennaws wrote: »

Imagine there was only one motor insurance company who could charge what they liked and you’d be getting a bit closer..

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

blanch152

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Blaming SF and Murphy for FG's monumental screw up?

The people were misled by the charlatans in SF and PBP. There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.

It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

NinetyTwoTeam

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

like the bins and the electricity, yeah they hardly ever go up. would you cop on.

irish water and the charges they tried to bring in was not set up to fix leaks, it was just a money grab. IW spent a fortune on stuff that had nothing to do with fixing infrastructure issues or safeguarding supply, it was all about metering and collecting and marketing to try and make people aware of their 'brand'.

it was the typical combination of greed and incompetence that epitomizes our main gov parties modus operandi.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

It's a pity FG didn't try to ram a crony infested entity down the throat of an austerity tired populace. Imagine if FG's favourite friend Mr D O'B wasn't involved, so much ammunition against IW by that individuals involvement alone. Again the mess that was the setup and waste is all the fault of FG and no one else despite your claims to the contrary.

Hitman3000

blanch152 wrote:

There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.

Was there? Despite reading most of the IW threads I don't remember any such claims. Perhaps you can provide a few quotes?

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

The people were misled by the charlatans in SF and PBP.

Yet again I will remind you that water charges were abolished due to the recommendations laid out by an expert commission, put in place by a FG govt.

Are you trying to sell the line that this team of independent experts let themselves be 'misled" and have their arms twisted by SF and PBP:D?

There were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage, that the meters wouldn't be needed to monitor usage. Well, they were very wrong about that.

There was?

Any chance of quoting some of these posters?

Na, didn't think so.

It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

Come on Blanch, FG need to take ownership of the mess they put together and oversaw. One lad has FF on the hook for everything, you have the shinners and Murphy on it.

Billion euro omnishambles.

The Bishop Basher

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a real pity that FG broke and didn't stick to their guns, but they were the last to do so. All the rest of the weak populists in the Dail had caved into the mob long before that.

Why do you use the term "mob" ?

I was on many marches with tens of thousands of people and I picketed numerous estates locally to stop the meter vans getting in. I never saw the slightest hint of trouble. Even at the large march in Dublin there was a carnival like atmosphere and plenty of young children about.

You wouldn't know cause you weren't there but if you doubt me you can go check the stats. There were zero arrests.

The last time I got involved in anything and marched in opposition was also with 10000 people around the streets of Dublin against the illegal invasion of Iraq. It had a similar carnival type atmosphere. We even brought our young children in buggies.

Were we also a mob then or does it depend on whether you agree or not

Do you not believe in democratic principals

How do you suggest people should protest

The Bishop Basher

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Oh man that was funny..

Thank you for the giggles..

Now, back in the real world..

ancapailldorcha

Rennaws wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Oh man that was funny..

Thank you for the giggles..

Now, back in the real world..

Don't post like this again here please.

The Bishop Basher

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Imagine this entity was regulated so they couldn't just do what they wanted.

Ok let me state this in a serious way then..

We don't do regulation in Ireland.

That's why we have some of the highest energy prices in Europe.

That's why were paying much higher mortgage interests rates then our friends in Europe.

That's why our banks got away with dodgy lending and accounting practices for so long.

That's why the motor insurance trade continues to fleece us..

We're not capable of regulating ourselves.

There are too many vested interests and too many hands in pots..

We're just too greedy.

LuckyLloyd

The same people who told us the protests would fail; who cheered on every heavy handed Garda intervention and salivated at the thought of Paul Murphy going to jail are in here arguing the same old tired nonsense regarding IW. Ye were wrong, the manner of the introduction was rejected by the people and placed in the political dustbin with the corpse of the Labour Party.

It’s time to move forward. This is an infrastructure issue at a time of historically low interest rates. Like Metrolink, like Bus Connects; like road improvement. Water is paid for via general taxation and what is required is the state to prioritise and fulfil its infrastructure obligations. The charge is off the table for a generation, no point in wallowing in martyrdom for toxic politics.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Ideally I'd like to see a severe drought but localised solely to Jobstown, and maybe a few other places that expect the tax payer to foot the bill for their utility bill when it comes to water (even excess usage!)

The Bishop Basher

Rylan Stale Retirement wrote: »

Ideally I'd like to see a severe drought but localised solely to Jobstown, and maybe a few other places that expect the tax payer to foot the bill for their utility bill when it comes to water (even excess usage!)

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

Rennaws

Rennaws wrote: »

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

So, it’s ok for motorists to pay for everyone’s water? Why not have the people pay for the water ther actually use?

superman28

Nearly 50% of all water before it reaches your tap is lost due to leaks.. we pay nearly double the cost to manage the same amount of water than the UK. Water charges were the best hope to fix the situation but the pathetic weak willed government gave in to populist nonsense.

The money has to come from somewhere,, the "we already pay for water" through general taxation is a lie. We don't use general taxation to fix our broken water supply we use this money just to maintain it..

I would lump it into property tax somehow,, keep monitoring peoples water usage send letters to those who waste water.. we should at least use the water meters that we already spent the money on..

The Bishop Basher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, it’s ok for motorists to pay for everyone’s water? Why not have the people pay for the water ther actually use?

Motorists pay for lots of things used by non motorists. Do you really want to go down that rat hole ?

Anyway, that’s the system the government currently have in place. They tried to change it and the people excercised their democratic right and said no.

If you want to change it, get out and lobby for change like we had to do..

That’s how democracy works..

superman28 wrote: »

I would lump it into property tax somehow,,

Our family home tax is already being used to prop up
Irish Water.

Over 90% of it..

Are you suggesting we double the family home tax ?

superman28 wrote: »

keep monitoring peoples water usage send letters to those who waste water.. we should at least use the water meters that we already spent the money on..

There are hundreds of thousands of households that can’t be metered. Ours included.. How do you monitor their water usage ?

Rennaws

Rennaws wrote: »

There are hundreds of thousands of households that can’t be metered. Ours included.. How do you monitor their water usage ?

In the Uk, households were given a choice. Pay a flat fee or be metered. Meters were installed without any fuss. Guess what? Most pay the metered charge as it was lower. Irish Water is still here. They have ways of identifying areas of excessive use. They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Was there? Despite reading most of the IW threads I don't remember any such claims. Perhaps you can provide a few quotes?

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

There was?

Any chance of quoting some of these posters?

Na, didn't think so.

Literally didn't even have to go to the archives first to find a bunch.

nietzy wrote: »

[...] We dont have water shortages in ireland, just shyte infostructure.

If we were clever, we could be an exporter of water. Spain and Portugal right now are having problems every summer with their resovoirs.

the main point here is, why should anyone pay for something that falls out of the sky freely and is a basic human right?

bryanw wrote: »

[...]
I also don't buy from they previous article that a few weeks without rain will cause water shortages. I would be inclined to think its lack of investment in infrastructure. Because if rainfall for May is around 60% of the mean in terms of volume, how does that translate to: no water! Other countries experience much drier weather that us, as a rule, and yet they don't run dry as quickly as we do. I mean, I live on the East coast which usually has much less rain that the west, and yet I haven't been threatened with a shortage (yet), even though I wouldn't hold up the infrastructure as a model here either.[...]

yoshytoshy wrote: »

[...]

The government are using peoples fear of water shortage ,to get more money.

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

The Bishop Basher

Deleted User wrote: »

They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

Every house on our road shares a mains with it's neighbour.

That didn't stop them installing meters though, even when I advised them that it was pointless. They said they knew it was but they were told to install them anyway.

I suppose Dinny has to be paid..

McMurphy

Deleted User wrote: »

In the Uk, households were given a choice. Pay a flat fee or be metered. Meters were installed without any fuss. Guess what? Most pay the metered charge as it was lower. Irish Water is still here. They have ways of identifying areas of excessive use. They can isolate areas that may have issues with leaks. Don’t worry. Your civic minded neighbors will report any abuse of the system.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here from certain posters about why we are left with the system that is in place.

FF/SF/PBP or any other bogey men they can think of, aren't responsible for the scrapped charging system we had in place.

FG got together a team of independent experts, with the task of investigating how best to fund our water system.

This expert commission came back, recommended that the charging system be abolished, and that we should continue to fund our water system from general taxation, and look at some way to sanction those deemed to be wasting water.

Personally, if I go to the doctor and he comes up with a diagnosis, and writes a prescription for me, I tend to listen to him/her.

It looks to me like some here would go off and put a sticking plaster over there earlobe when a doctor has diagnosed a chest infection.

Misplaced anger perhaps, but it would appear that FG ultimately brought the charges to an end when they coddled together their experts.

Blaming others for the mess they created is a farce.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yet again I will remind you that water charges were abolished due to the recommendations laid out by an expert commission, put in place by a FG govt.

Are you trying to sell the line that this team of independent experts let themselves be 'misled" and have their arms twisted by SF and PBP:D?

Have you read that report... because that's not exactly what they concluded. They agreed with a free amount to be provided to households (distinguishing between the concept of taxation funded allocation vs additional direct subsidies to the water utility, over which level usage should be paid for directly to the water utility.

The Bishop Basher

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

I remember you telling me that water charges were here to stay, that the government wouldn't back down and we'd all better get used to it.

People can be wrong..

nxbyveromdwjpg

Rennaws wrote: »

Where are these few other places ?

It was the government who expected the tax payer to foot the bill for water when they abolished the charges and added an additional 3% to motor tax to cover it..

If you want to take issue with the mismanagement of that money surely it should be with the government who did the mismanaging and not with the people who paid in good faith

Its not the areas so much as the people, and you'll know them when you see them -

.

They deserve a drought for refusing to pay their way.

And yes I agree its unfortunate that the pathetic government folded to them, its the tax payer that'll suffer.

FreudianSlippers

Rennaws wrote: »

Ok let me state this in a serious way then..

We don't do regulation in Ireland.

This doesn't make any actual sense; the below comments are not necessarily connected with "regulation"

That's why we have some of the highest energy prices in Europe.

Denmark, German and Belgium have higher energy prices - I'd suggest they "do regulation" quite well.

That's why were paying much higher mortgage interests rates then our friends in Europe.

Mortgage interest rates are not really an issue for regulation other than in terms of sharp practice.

That's why our banks got away with dodgy lending and accounting practices for so long.

That's why the motor insurance trade continues to fleece us..

We're not capable of regulating ourselves.

There are too many vested interests and too many hands in pots..

We're just too greedy.

Honestly the rest of this is just unsupported waffle. I know you think that this is a "serious" post, but it's not grounded in any kind of reality unfortunately.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Literally didn't even have to go to the archives first to find a bunch.

Was there really posters predicting that Ireland would never face water shortages

I'd find that quitea bizarre prediction, considering water shortages/ droughts have been synonymous with heatwaves in this country, pretty much as far back as I can recall.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Was there really posters predicting that Ireland would never face water shortages

I'd find that quitea bizarre prediction, considering water shortages/ droughts have been synonymous with heatwaves in this country, pretty much as far back as I can recall.

I literally put three in my post. There were plenty more if you use the search function and are prepared to do a bit of digging.

FreudianSlippers

Rennaws wrote: »

that the government wouldn't back down and we'd all better get used to it.

I'd be surprised if I said that tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if I said that they shouldn't...

Hitman3000

FreudianSlippers wrote:

It goes on and I'm not even getting started on the number of people who claimed that meters weren't necessary to monitor usage...

You need to read Blanchs claim again. The quotes you have used do not despite you thinking otherwise give credibility to his/her claim.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I literally put three in my post. There were plenty more if you use the search function and are prepared to do a bit of digging.

You might want to reread blanches claim.

FreudianSlippers

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You need to read Blanchs claim again. The quotes you have used do not despite you thinking otherwise give credibility to his/her claim.

"here were plenty of them on here telling us that Ireland would never have a water shortage"

First page of the search, first quote posted:

"We dont have water shortages in ireland"

Second quote:

"I also don't buy from they previous article that a few weeks without rain will cause water shortages" - blaming infrastructure in terms of transporting water.

Third quote:

...and I paraphrase... there won't be a water shortage, it's just a government conspiracy.

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

You might want to reread blanches claim.

Were there or were there not people supporting the SF/PBP nonsense position saying that there would not be water shortages?

bladespin

Doubt charges or not would have changed anything, motor tax has been here for decades and the roads still melted.

NIMAN

This heatwave is a blessing in disguise for IW and the Gov.

McMurphy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Were there or were there not people supporting the SF/PBP nonsense position saying that there would not be water shortages?

No, and why you are attempting to tie their comments to SF/PBP bogeymen is confusing too.

Did either of those political parties state that Ireland would never face water shortages

Hitman3000

So you wish to ignore the report published in the last few days that claims over 50% is lost through leakage before the tap? IW claims that full capacity is 610 million litres, demand is touching on 608 million in Dublin. One can safely assume over 600 million is leaking into the ground.

FreudianSlippers

bladespin wrote: »

Doubt charges or not would have changed anything, motor tax has been here for decades and the roads still melted.

Don't disagree with this - arguably, allowing Irish Water to operate as a semi-private utility would potentially have resulted in better investment in infrastructure. Your point exactly, the government has had a fairly awful track record of using the money they raise to fund roads, hospitals, infrastructure; surely attempting a better way is worth it?

FreudianSlippers

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

No, and why you are attempting to tie their comments to SF/PBP bogeymen is confusing too.

Did either of those political parties state that Ireland would never face water shortages

Now I think you need to re-read Blanch's post. They don't claim that SF/PBP politicians were on Boards.ie saying that there would never be shortages...