Toyota is bringing back Camry and discontinuing Avensis

ba_barabus

Mira Juicy Noblewoman wrote: »

What sort of idiots are in charge in Toyota that think is a good idea not to have a diesel which is what will actually sell, especially in Ireland.

Most other markets are moving away from diesel and sales so far haven't been harmed anywhere.

colm_mcm

Mira Juicy Noblewoman wrote: »

What sort of idiots are in charge in Toyota that think is a good idea not to have a diesel which is what will actually sell, especially in Ireland.

A half of Toyota’s global sales are in USA and Japan. then you have the rest of Asia. Europe isn’t a significant market for Toyota in relative terms, and Ireland is only a tiny part of the European market.

pablo128

ba_barabus wrote: »

Most other markets are moving away from diesel and sales so far haven't been harmed anywhere.

They might be moving away from diesel but most brands still have that option. If you do big miles diesel is still cheaper to run.
As well as that, you cannot claim back the vat on petrol in Ireland, so Toyota will be supplying zero company cars here in the future.

Skylinehead

Mira Juicy Noblewoman wrote: »

What sort of idiots are in charge in Toyota that think is a good idea not to have a diesel which is what will actually sell, especially in Ireland.

Yeah, they're not going to keep diesel going just for Ireland. Especially with the new regulations coming in October.

ba_barabus

pablo128 wrote: »

They might be moving away from diesel but most brands still have that option. If you do big miles diesel is still cheaper to run.
As well as that, you cannot claim back the vat on petrol in Ireland, so Toyota will be supplying zero company cars here in the future.

I'd expect to see a change in that soon

John_Rambo

Diesel’s done now.

An amazingly good cheap tax push along with clever marketing had droves buying, augmented with a hugely smart & successful last grasp PCP campaign that has people rushing out to buy the last stock of vehicles that they can’t really afford. The so called “future estimates” of these diesel cars will be almost worthless in three years.

No car manufacturer is going to bow to the few die-hards in the minuscule Irish market demanding dirty diesels for their daily commute.

The Camry's always been known as a large, fast motorway saloon, I think they were used as motorway police cars, even in Ireland. They're remaining true to the car with this new one, all good except for the huge stupid grin just above the grill. I'm surprised they let that part of the design through, it would be nice on a small car, not on the Camry though.

pablo128

Nixonbot wrote: »

Yeah, they're not going to keep diesel going just for Ireland. Especially with the new regulations coming in October.

Amazing how every other manufacturer have a diesel option though. They are hardly doing that just for Ireland, as you say.

ofcork

I wonder would you get a big discount on an avensis now or even next year.

Philb76

People are talking like u can't get a petrol one uk is awash with them and the tax is relatively cheap they have always been an unremarkable car to look at and drive is it really a big loss lots of better alternatives

salonfire

Mira Juicy Noblewoman wrote: »

What sort of idiots are in charge in Toyota that think is a good idea not to have a diesel which is what will actually sell, especially in Ireland.

Probably those with the same foresight to get rid of cars that run on leaded petrol.

Or do you just want the world to stand still so it suits you?

bazz26

John_Rambo wrote: »

Diesel’s done now.

An amazingly good cheap tax push along with clever marketing had droves buying, augmented with a hugely smart & successful last grasp PCP campaign that has people rushing out to buy the last stock of vehicles that they can’t really afford. The so called “future estimates” of these diesel cars will be almost worthless in three years.

No car manufacturer is going to bow to the few die-hards in the minuscule Irish market demanding dirty diesels for their daily commute.

The Camry's always been known as a large, fast motorway saloon, I think they were used as motorway police cars, even in Ireland. They're remaining true to the car with this new one, all good except for the huge stupid grin just above the grill. I'm surprised they let that part of the design through, it would be nice on a small car, not on the Camry though.

There is still a market for diesel cars in this country in the short to medium term. There are also a large amount of used diesel cars on the road, not everyone is going to just go out and replace them with a brand non diesel car just because the likes of Toyota tell you it's better to do so. No government would be stupid enough to impose punitive taxes on voters as they know it would be political suicide come election time. Instead in the long term, demand for diesel cars here will slowly diminish and gradually they will for the most part naturally disappear from the roads.

As for manufacturers not giving people what they want, remember that the likes of Toyota sold small capacity engined cars exclusively for the Irish market that were not offered in the majority of other European markets. Same goes with small saloons like the Corolla which are only sold in a hand full of European countries. Toyota bring it here because it is a good seller here for them. Manufacturers find a way when it comes to market share.

Also Toyota have a huge PR machine going now trying to drill hybrids into people's brains because their typical customer the Sunday parishioner, who changes his diesel Corolla or Avensis every 2 or 3 years religiously no longer has that option and they are scared these people will buy from their rivals and they will lose market share.

The smugness of that one in the Toyota ad going on about buying a hybrid because she's concerned about air pollution for her kids yet how much air pollution and energy is used by the factory that produced her hybrid or the damage the mining of lithium for her hybrid batteries is doing. Keep your existing car if that's really a concern.

John_Rambo

bazz26 wrote: »

There is still a market for diesel cars in this country in the short to medium term. There are also a large amount of used diesel cars on the road, not everyone is going to just go out and replace them with a brand non diesel car just because the likes of Toyota tell you it's better to do so. No government would be stupid enough to impose punitive taxes on voters as they know it would be political suicide come election time. Instead in the long term, demand for diesel cars here will slowly diminish and gradually they will for the most part naturally disappear from the roads.

As for manufacturers not giving people what they want, remember that the likes of Toyota sold small capacity engined cars exclusively for the Irish market that were not offered in the majority of other European markets. Same goes with small saloons like the Corolla which are only sold in a hand full of European countries. Toyota bring it here because it is a good seller here for them. Manufacturers find a way when it comes to market share.

Also Toyota have a huge PR machine going now trying to drill hybrids into people's brains because their typical customer the Sunday parishioner, who changes his diesel Corolla or Avensis every 2 or 3 years religiously no longer has that option and they are scared these people will buy from their rivals and they will lose market share.

The smugness of that one in the Toyota ad going on about buying a hybrid because she's concerned about air pollution for her kids yet how much air pollution and energy is used by the factory that produced her hybrid or the damage the mining of lithium for her hybrid batteries is doing. Keep your existing car if that's really a concern.

You're more or less saying what I said in a very articulate, elequent, softer way with a longer time frame! And your points are valid.

Regarding my concerns, I indeed have old cars, one of which is eighteen yeas old and I'm having difficulties insuring it even though it's the most reliable car I've ever owned, passes the NTC every year, has new tyres, runs like a dream, has a tiny petrol engine and never gives trouble.

My point remains valid too. The PCP last grasp push was and is a cynical way to force the last remaining vehicles on people that can't really afford them. And believe me, there'll be pain when diesels aren't popular for tax reasons. It won't be the local politicians, they'll throw their hands up in the air in complete innocence, it will come from Europe. Just like the diesel push did.

Edit... the silly grin on the new Camry? Thoughts?

colm_mcm

John Rambo , are you saying that in the next 5 years you think the government or Europe or someone will impose some sort of tax punishing existing diesel owners? Say, dir example -someone who buys a new diesel now.

Skylinehead

pablo128 wrote: »

Amazing how every other manufacturer have a diesel option though. They are hardly doing that just for Ireland, as you say.

Those manufacturers will drastically change as new models come out. VW is in meltdown over the EU diesel changes even as we speak.

RobAMerc

colm_mcm wrote: »

John Rambo , are you saying that in the next 5 years you think the government or Europe or someone will impose some sort of tax punishing existing diesel owners? Say, dir example -someone who buys a new diesel now.

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

ba_barabus

RobAMerc wrote: »

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

In fairness the emissions issues with diesel have been known since the 80s. The ****e reliability is a newer problem with them

colm_mcm

RobAMerc wrote: »

Absolutely ! The motor industry is large in Europe and a simple way to keep it afloat is to come up with a new bogeyman - diesel. They'll use it as an excuse to tax the poor who have to keep them and subsidise the industry by making new electric cars more affordable by use of incentives.

I can’t see our government doing that, for one thing the upgrades to the public charging network needed to replace even one year of diesel car sales in a country like Ireland would be astronomical.
Because diesel car ownership trancends boundaries of social status, any punitive taxation on diesels across the board would be political suicide.

Philb76

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

colm_mcm

They’re giving free upgrades to hybrid, people aren’t paying full price.

road_high

Philb76 wrote: »

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

I dunno, I’m just not convinced offering less choice to drivers and window dressing it as being eco friendly will necessarily pay off. Trying to make diesel into a bogey man to suit their own corporate decisions to not invest in diesel as it doesn’t fit with their other world markets preferences.
Toyota were always a big fleet seller here and appear to be effectively giving that up.
A CHR hybrid vs say an Audi A3 diesel doing a large daily commute and driven hard on a motorway will simply not deliver the same fuel economy regardless of what they say

RobAMerc

colm_mcm wrote: »

I can’t see our government doing that, for one thing the upgrades to the public charging network needed to replace even one year of diesel car sales in a country like Ireland would be astronomical.
Because diesel car ownership trancends boundaries of social status, any punitive taxation on diesels across the board would be political suicide.

Did they not effectively do this already in 2008 to get us all into diesels?

Year on year they upped road tax claiming gas guzzlers needed to be obliterated so we have to increase the tax on them.

Then in 2008 - Diesel was hailed the white night and diesels were given a huge boost from a tax perspective - virtually making pre 2008 cars worthless overnight.

Same thing is going to happen with electric - anti diesel rhetoric has started already, mark my words road tax is going to be on the rise soon with massive incentives to buy electric - till we all end up in NEW electrics

colm_mcm

RobAMerc wrote: »

Did they not effectively do this already in 2008 to get us all into diesels?

Year on year they upped road tax claiming gas guzzlers needed to be obliterated so we have to increase the tax on them.

Then in 2008 - Diesel was hailed the white night and diesels were given a huge boost from a tax perspective - virtually making pre 2008 cars worthless overnight.

Same thing is going to happen with electric - anti diesel rhetoric has started already, mark my words road tax is going to be on the rise soon with massive incentives to buy electric - till we all end up in NEW electrics

No, what happened in 2008 was completely different. The example I always use is the Avensis. In 2007, a petrol Avensis cost €25500 and a diesel cost €31500.

Pre July 08, the prices of those cars broke down like this:

Petrol Avensis €19225
VRT €6375
Total €25500

Diesel Avensis €22050
VRT €9450
Total €31500

While there were (mainly) petrol cars that had their annual tax skyrocket, this was only applied to new cars registered after July, and not retrospectively lumped on cars that were already registered.

To go back to our Avensis example, the VRT on the diesel dropped from 30% to 20%, so a €31500 price became €27500, and €700 tax became €390.

Now that was on a diesel that wasn’t even that low emissions. There were others that went into the 14% and 16% bands.

Anyway, the point is, that the VRT being paid on cars 10 years on is minuscule compared to what it was in early 2008. They cannot repeat what was done in 2008 because they simply aren’t taking in the sort of money per car they were getting before the changes 10 years ago today.

pablo128

Can I add that the more electric cars that are sold, the less duty the state makes from fuel sales. So be careful what you wish for. They will simply raise prices somewhere else.

Leonard Hofstadter

road_high wrote: »

Philb76 wrote: »

As the other poster said the Toyota pr machine is full swing at the minute and it's working cos nearly every yaris and auris with a newish plate is a hybrid so instead of losing market share in Ireland which has a loyal following ther market share Will probably increase cos that's the way it's going anyway i think they have been very clever and the timings perfect

A CHR hybrid vs say an Audi A3 diesel doing a large daily commute and driven hard on a motorway will simply not deliver the same fuel economy regardless of what they say

And even if they did do the same fuel economy, they still wouldn't be as cheap to run as a diesel, diesel is 10-11 cent a litre cheaper, and you also can't claim the VAT back on petrol (although I understand Toyota are lobbying to change that).

The cost of fuel doesn't bother me because I do about 7,000 miles a year (it's one of the reasons why I run a six cylinder petrol), but if someone is doing 15,000 miles a year, or more, then all those times paying 10 cent a litre adds up over a year, even on a car that does 50 mpg.

I'm no fan of diesels but they certainly still have a place and I still think they're the best option for the high mileage motorist.

road_high

pablo128 wrote: »

Can I add that the more electric cars that are sold, the less duty the state makes from fuel sales. So be careful what you wish for. They will simply raise prices somewhere else.

Excise and tax on fuel, cars and all motoring is a massive (and very unjust) state revenue stream. There’s no way they’ll give it up or could even afford to so they’ll tax the electricity more in return.
Motoring should never been allowed to be used as the cash cow it is but we had some seriously sloven, lazy useless administrations in the 70s/80s who used it as an easy revenue stream to plug huge gaps in public finances- after all, people had no choice as they had to drive in this country so we all have cars.

Philb76

Absolutely agree hope my superb lasts for a while until government make decisions regarding diesel so much uncertainty personally I hope ther is a future for it cos like a lot of you guys its a requirement

lsjmhar

colm_mcm wrote:

No, what happened in 2008 was completely different. The example I always use is the Avensis. In 2007, a petrol Avensis cost €25500 and a diesel cost €31500.

colm_mcm wrote:

Pre July 08, the prices of those cars broke down like this:

colm_mcm wrote:

Petrol Avensis €19225 VRT €6375 Total €25500

colm_mcm wrote:

Diesel Avensis €22050 VRT €9450 Total €31500

colm_mcm wrote:

While there were (mainly) petrol cars that had their annual tax skyrocket, this was only applied to new cars registered after July, and not retrospectively lumped on cars that were already registered.

colm_mcm wrote:

To go back to our Avensis example, the VRT on the diesel dropped from 30% to 20%, so a €31500 price became €27500, and €700 tax became €390.

colm_mcm wrote:

Now that was on a diesel that wasn’t even that low emissions. There were others that went into the 14% and 16% bands.

colm_mcm wrote:

Anyway, the point is, that the VRT being paid on cars 10 years on is minuscule compared to what it was in early 2008. They cannot repeat what was done in 2008 because they simply aren’t taking in the sort of money per car they were getting before the changes 10 years ago today.

Good explanation. There is always more than meets the eye in these changeovers!

An increase in VRT for diesel cars seems likely..... high mileage users that get the VAT back wouldn't be overly bothered.... lower mileage users would be more likely to chose a petrol, hybrid or BEV option that suits their needs better.

Nothing radical is needed.

colm_mcm

If the gov were to increase VRT on the likes of a new Golf by say €5000, that’s not going to harm used values at all for the cars that are out there and registered.

Who is suggesting it would ?