Toyota is bringing back Camry and discontinuing Avensis

shirazhyder84

Just read the news that Toyota Ireland is bring back Camry and will discontinue Avensis.
Never liked the Avensis but having driven the last generation of Camry in the middle east, I believe it would be a good addition to the Toyota line-up.
"The new Camry will share its chassis and hybrid powertrain with the new Lexus ES executive saloon, which means it will have the same flexible TNGA (Toyota New Generation Architecture) underpinnings, and a 2.5-litre four-cylinder petrol engine, backed up by a hybrid electric transmission."

colm_mcm

I disagree to be honest. A few people in Ireland shed a tear when they stopped selling the Camry in Ireland (We had repeat customers who always got Camrys) but Europe has moved on from non German or non premium large saloons.
The Camry went the way of the Mitsubishi Galant, Opel Omega, Nissan Maxima, Ford Scorpio, Honda Accord, Peugeot 607, Renault Safrane etc etc. the market for regular sized saloons like the Avensis (late of this parish) is shrinking, the market for regular bigger saloons is non-existent.
The Camry hybrid is a front wheel drive 4 cylinder car with a CVT box, it won’t appeal to Paddy and Mary that buy a diesel Avensis every 3 years since they cashed in their SSIA, and it won’t appeal to your A4/A6 company car driver.
Fair enough they’ve been selling the Camry in Europe for a few years now, presumably because it ticks some box in terms of avoiding taxes.

bazz26

The Camry was dropped about 15 years ago because sales dwindled of these size cars. Avensis was dropped earlier this year because sales dwindled due to people buying crossovers instead. I cannot see this Camry being any different and predict it will have a short and undistinguished life span before Toyota pull the plug on it again quietly.

scooby77

As i've said previously I'd be interested if spec and price are reasonable. A similar choice of spec to the USA would be ideal. (I'd be going for LE equivalent, basic model but highest mpg). Though will probably do couple more years in Leon first if remains trouble free and cheap to run!

Would the hybrid not be perfect for a taxi? Dubai for example have over 1000 Camry Hybrid taxis, have used them fairly often, drivers love them.

Pricing will be key.
Here's the press release if anyone's interested:
https://newsroom.toyota.eu/camry-returns-to-western-europe-with-tnga-and-latest-hybrid-electric-powertrain/

mengele

Surely the problem with the avensis is that they didn't bring out a new model with yonks?

Supergurrier

My dad has had a new Avensis every 2 years since 2000 and is on his 9th one.

He went in afew weeks ago to order a 182 diesel Aura Avensis as normal only to be told they weren't available in diesel anymore and they are completely out of stock so he bought himself a 2 litre d4d Rav4 in silver instead that he is picking up in afew weeks. This is the route i see alot of Avensis drivers going tbh.

bazz26

mengele wrote: »

Surely the problem with the avensis is that they didn't bring out a new model with yonks?

The reason they didn't invest in developing a new model is because it couldn't be justified due to poor sales across Europe. The Avensis was also unique to Europe whereas the Camry is probably a variant already sold in other regions outside of Europe.

The agreement Toyota had with BMW to supply BMW diesel engines finishes at the end of the year afaik and they won't meet new Euro emission tests anyway so the likes of the current Avensis was always going to be killed off, the current RAV4 gets replaced with a new model early next year and won't have any diesel option either.

Dia1988

What's more interesting is that Toyota won't be selling any Diesel cars from 2019 onwards and will persuade customers into hybrids.

No diesel Auris, Corolla, Avensis, Rav 4

This I feel is far to soon for Ireland!!

Although Toyota diesel sales have dropped from 50% in 2017 to 22% this year.

Fair play to Toyota I say!

bazz26

They didn't have much choice really:

Auris/Corolla - 1.4d4d won't meet new EU emission tests and new models of both due towards the end of this year.

Yaris - 1.4d4d same as above.

Avensis - 1.6d4d/2.0d4d are last generation BMW units, agreement with BMW ends this year, they wouldn't meet new EU emission tests and the Avensis model is 9 years old and being retired.

Rav4 - 2.0d4d BMW unit so as above plus Rav4 is being replaced with a new model at the end of the year.

So in essence Toyota have no new diesel engines to replace either their own aging engine or the ones supplied by BMW. They will probably get away with it in other EU countries where their market share ain't as big but they have a good market share in Ireland so in the short term they will suffer a bit. Hence the current big marketing campaign to push hybrids.

Grab All Association

Camry looks cheap and tacky in the front like the Corolla.

Cookie_Monster

oh dear, and the new camry is utterly hideous too.

ba_barabus

bazz26 wrote: »

They didn't have much choice really:

Auris/Corolla - 1.4d4d won't meet new EU emission tests and new models of both due towards the end of this year.

Yaris - 1.4d4d same as above.

Avensis - 1.6d4d/2.0d4d are last generation BMW units, agreement with BMW ends this year, they wouldn't meet new EU emission tests and the Avensis model is 9 years old and being retired.

Rav4 - 2.0d4d BMW unit so as above plus Rav4 is being replaced with a new model at the end of the year.

So in essence Toyota have no new diesel engines to replace either their own aging engine or the ones supplied by BMW. They will probably get away with it in other EU countries where their market share ain't as big but they have a good market share in Ireland so in the short term they will suffer a bit. Hence the current big marketing campaign to push hybrids.

They had a 3 cylinder 1.5 diesel engine almost ready to go but pulled the plug on it before the VW emissions scandal as they reckoned it was impossible to meet the new regs making an honest, reliable and affordable diesel.

mikeecho

Just googled 2019 Toyota Camry.

By gum... it's ugly

drunkmonkey

I think it's ok looking, rising petrol prices here and vrt will probably kill it for Irish buyers. Risky move by Toyota ditching the diesel. They'll probably lose a lot of customers to the Germans and French.

johng906

I had a new rental camry in the states last week. Awful yoke.

Bazzy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think it's ok looking, rising petrol prices here and vrt will probably kill it for Irish buyers. Risky move by Toyota ditching the diesel. They'll probably lose a lot of customers to the Germans and French.

I think its looks lovely

zilog_jones

colm_mcm wrote: »

The Camry went the way of the Mitsubishi Galant, Opel Omega, Nissan Maxima, Ford Scorpio, Honda Accord, Peugeot 607, Renault Safrane etc etc. the market for regular sized saloons like the Avensis (late of this parish) is shrinking, the market for regular bigger saloons is non-existent.

But as the non-premium marque big saloons (E-segment) disappeared in Europe, the D-segment "large family cars" grew in size. The Camry we got in the '90s was a "mid-size" by US standards, but now all the D-segment saloons here (Mondeo, Insignia, Peugeot 508, Mazda6... there's not many left really) which were once closer to "compacts" are now mid-size too. The current Camry fits right in with these in terms of size, whereas the old Avensis was looking comparatively small.

But yes, that segment is dying anyway - so it makes a lot of sense for Toyota to choose the cheaper option of selling a world car than develop another car specially for Europe (which the Avensis was).

The Camry hybrid is a front wheel drive 4 cylinder car with a CVT box, it won’t appeal to Paddy and Mary that buy a diesel Avensis every 3 years...

This Irish fascination with diesels was just a temporary glitch in the system - even going back to the 1st gen Avensis the large majority sold here were petrols. And now with the efficiency, performance and chape tax of hybrids they don't need to go for the pathetic underpowered 1.6 Paddy Spec version either. The C-HR is selling fine with no diesel.

And maybe I'm weird but I think Toyota eCVT boxes (nothing to do with traditional CVTs btw) work very well, and my left knee is in a much better state not having to deal with heavy diesel clutches...

Hurrache

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh dear, and the new camry is utterly hideous too.

mikeecho wrote: »

Just googled 2019 Toyota Camry.

By gum... it's ugly

I don't think Toyota made a reasonable looking saloon car for the Irish market in decades. The Avensis estate is the best looking of their current line up (obviously excluding the GT86).

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

............and my left knee is in a much better state not having to deal with heavy diesel clutches...

Not many modern diesel clutches are heavy to be fair.

Grab All Association

zilog_jones wrote: »

But yes, that segment is dying anyway - so it makes a lot of sense for Toyota to choose the cheaper option of selling a world car than develop another car specially for Europe (which the Avensis was)

This Irish fascination with diesels was just a temporary glitch in the system - even going back to the 1st gen Avensis the large majority sold here were petrols. And now with the efficiency, performance and chape tax of hybrids they don't need to go for the pathetic underpowered 1.6 Paddy Spec version either. The C-HR is selling fine with no diesel.

Have to disagree with you there. Almost everyone here in rural parts of Thurles and Nenagh etc swear by diesels. ”shure the petrol will cost yew a lot”
Try explain to them that not only is your 1.4 Corolla/1.6 Avensis/focus etc sluggish and slower than the public service, there’s no savings at all driving in and out of town (4 miles) a few days a week.

I never stopped buying petrols. My current car is a 2017 Skoda Octavia RS. I had to travel to Dublin to purchase it. I was actually looking to purchase an Areton (prob spelt that wrong. Formerly VW CC) and Tom Harvey had nothing but diesels on the lot. It’s cheap to tax and was unbelievablely cheap to insure. There’s two 2016 RS’ within a 4 mile radius though so maybe there’s hope. Neighbours have imported 2.5-3.0 petrols too.

zilog_jones

Grab All Association wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. Almost everyone here in rural parts of Thurles and Nenagh etc swear by diesels. ”shure the petrol will cost yew a lot”
Try explain to them that not only is your 1.4 Corolla/1.6 Avensis/focus etc sluggish and slower than the public service, there’s no savings at all driving in and out of town (4 miles) a few days a week.

You disagree they weren't all buying petrols 15-20 years ago, when diesels where more expensive to buy and tax? That's the point I was trying to make - if petrol hybrids can be competitively priced (they already have cheap tax), it won't take much convincing people to change again like they did in 2008. The C-HR is a top 10 seller in Ireland, it has no diesel option and never will. Not so sure the Camry will have much of an impact though, might be popular with taxi drivers (who already seem to be switching en masse to hybrids).

drunkmonkey

Won't be switching back to petrol until you can get the vat back on it. If the government was serious about cutting down on diesels this would have happened long ago.
If they switch the current rule to favour petrol you'll see the national fleet change pretty quickly.

Voodoomelon

Just back from the States and there's Camrys everywhere, a great looking car. +1 from me.

Philb76

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Just back from the States and there's Camrys everywhere, a great looking car. +1 from me.

Especially new York taxis i like the look of it round are way thers a 92 camry and a 01 being used daily can't see them shifting many here too much badge obsession

i57dwun4yb1pt8

the avensis is a car for c*nts end of story

ofcork

I will be interested in this have a 12 diesel avensis but want to go back to petrol I think pricing could be in superb territory which could mean mid to high 30s for decent spec.

ba_barabus

ofcork wrote: »

I will be interested in this have a 12 diesel avensis but want to go back to petrol I think pricing could be in superb territory which could mean mid to high 30s for decent spec.

I'm interested too. Will be having a good look. The is300h is a bit tight on space. Economy is the only big worry

ofcork

ofcork wrote: »

..........I think pricing could be in superb territory which could mean mid to high 30s for decent spec.

Mmmmm .... I reckon you are spot on there.

A CHR hybrid Sol is €32,950 ....... Auris Hybrid Sol is €27,680 (includes reduction of VRT €1,500) ........ an is300 is from: €41,480.00

It won't be a huge volume seller so I doubt Toyota will make them very cheap. Basic versions will be more than a couple of k north of €30k I imagine.

A 1.5TSi Superb with DSG in active spec is €31K

Atlantic Dawn

The current Camry looks a lot slimmed down from the last model that was on the Irish market from 2002-2006 or so, could just be the look of it though.

I noticed a few of them over the years in the States, the ones over there are very much Skoda Superb at least size ish.

Leonard Hofstadter

They're almost 4.9 metres long, so a fair bit bigger than the Avensis (which is about 4.7).

colm_mcm

Old Camry was 4.8 (the last one we got) The new Camry is only slightly longer than a Mondeo.

Atlantic Dawn

Wonder will the UK get them too, they currently don't have the saloon Corolla and no mention of the Camry on their website.

colm_mcm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Wonder will the UK get them too, they currently don't have the saloon Corolla and no mention of the Camry on their website.

http://media.toyota.co.uk/2018/06/toyota-camry-to-return-to-uk-showrooms-with-new-hybrid-electric-powertrains/

bazz26

UK Minicab drivers will be delighted.

doolox

200mm equates to about 8 inches. Difference between a Camry and an Avensis. I hope people are not getting out the tape measures while cruising side by side in rival car types on the M50 at 70 kph.


It could explain the moronically slow driving I witnessed on Friday at 3.30 pm.

And not a single traffic light on the M50. Stop looking at your neighbours car.

Also the M4 westbound a short time later, not a single obstruction for 200km and stop, stop go and 5 kph until I left the road at Lucan, God knows when it freed up.

Could the toll booth at Enfield cause this cluster****??????

I recall hiring a Nissan Micra once in 1993 coming in through Shannon Airport.

Initially I thought that things would be very, very SLOWWWWWW, but it got me to Galway in less than one hour. Often it is down to the driver as I would have regarded Micras, Yarises, etc as being slow cars.

Its the drivers who are slow. There is nothing wrong with the cars.

The only thing a big car gives you is comfort which can be a good thing when you are driving high mileage to many customers on a weekly basis and have no choice and have to bring your equipment with you so cannot use public transport because you would be too slow and also piss people off.

pablo128

Is this yoke going to be auto only?

colm_mcm

doolox wrote: »

200mm equates to about 8 inches. Difference between a Camry and an Avensis. I hope people are not getting out the tape measures while cruising side by side in rival car types on the M50 at 70 kph.


It could explain the moronically slow driving I witnessed on Friday at 3.30 pm.

And not a single traffic light on the M50. Stop looking at your neighbours car.

Also the M4 westbound a short time later, not a single obstruction for 200km and stop, stop go and 5 kph until I left the road at Lucan, God knows when it freed up.

Could the toll booth at Enfield cause this cluster****??????

I recall hiring a Nissan Micra once in 1993 coming in through Shannon Airport.

Initially I thought that things would be very, very SLOWWWWWW, but it got me to Galway in less than one hour. Often it is down to the driver as I would have regarded Micras, Yarises, etc as being slow cars.

Its the drivers who are slow. There is nothing wrong with the cars.

The only thing a big car gives you is comfort which can be a good thing when you are driving high mileage to many customers on a weekly basis and have no choice and have to bring your equipment with you so cannot use public transport because you would be too slow and also piss people off.

I think it’s very relevant given that it’s not a direct replacement for the Avensis, people would be curious as to how it compares both to the Avensis and other cars in that class like the Passat/Mondeo,
The Camry will awkwardly straddle a few segments, like Accord did. Not posh/shporty/whatever people see in them- like an A4 but not common like a Mondeo, priced at a premium, but not a premium product. Not a Lexus, but also not a Corolla.

pablo128 wrote: »

Is this yoke going to be auto only?

Yeah, same basic drivetrain as a Rav4 Hybrid, Lexus NX, Lexus IS300h, front wheel drive though.

Atlantic Dawn

pablo128 wrote: »

Is this yoke going to be auto only?

I'd say so, as far as I know all hybrids are automatic only.

colm_mcm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I'd say so, as far as I know all hybrids are automatic only.

First Civic IMA and Honda Insight were manual, but yeah the Toyota way of dong hybrids is to have an eCVT transmission (which is a wonderfully simple piece of engineering) KIA/Hyundai use a DSG style twin clutch on their hybrids.

All new non SUV options are welcome imo

Leonard Hofstadter

Do you think the typical customer who buys the Avensis will be able for hybrid and automatic?

Seems a bit of a risk to me ditching diesel and manual, although it is a dwindling segment anyway (but one that is still heavily dominated by diesel and manual, although I note more cars in this segment are autos these days).

I suppose they'll probably stuff them to the gills with equipment and have all sort of trade in boosters, Toyota are really trying to flog the hybrid thing big time these days, I know they're selling a load of then, but just look at all the incentives on offer, sounds to me like most Toyota customers would still buy petrol and diesel were it not for all the freebies on offer if you buy hybrid.

Atlantic Dawn

captainspeed wrote: »

Do you think the typical customer who buys the Avensis will be able for hybrid and automatic?

With cheapppppppp tax yes.

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

Do you think the typical customer who buys the Avensis will be able for hybrid and automatic?
....

Well taxi drivers seem to have managed away fine.
I'm sure bacon &cabbage munchers will too.

pablo128

captainspeed wrote: »

Do you think the typical customer who buys the Avensis will be able for hybrid and automatic?

Seems a bit of a risk to me ditching diesel and manual, although it is a dwindling segment anyway (but one that is still heavily dominated by diesel and manual, although I note more cars in this segment are autos these days).

I suppose they'll probably stuff them to the gills with equipment and have all sort of trade in boosters, Toyota are really trying to flog the hybrid thing big time these days, I know they're selling a load of then, but just look at all the incentives on offer, sounds to me like most Toyota customers would still buy petrol and diesel were it not for all the freebies on offer if you buy hybrid.

Good point. I've just been googling them there, and for such a popular car worldwide, there doesn't seem to be a hatchback or estate version. Definitely a no from me then. I like to be able to fold the seats and carry a lot of stuff on occasions. I'd never fit my child's bike in the boot of that let alone a washing machine or something.

road_high

Think I saw figures where Toyota market share had fallen a lot so far this year. Still a fair sized market here for small SUV and family sized cars in diesel, the likes of the Peugeot 3008 is a quality car with still a comprehensive engine choice not just petrol hybrids,same with VW and Skodas ranges. For many of us diesel still makes sense and my feeling is Toyota will suffer here regardless of the relentless PR offensive they are on surrounding Hybrid petrol

bazz26

The Camry is mainly designed with America in mind where it sells in large numbers, the Yanks don't buy hatchbacks and tend to buy big SUVs and pickups instead of estates.

road_high

captainspeed wrote: »

They're almost 4.9 metres long, so a fair bit bigger than the Avensis (which is about 4.7).

Look about similar to the Mazda 6 in size.

road_high

I’m not aware of Hyundai Kia in any rush to ditch diesel either who have already been eating into the traditional mass going market that Toyota once owned. Course many of them don’t need diesels in the first place but for the rest of us it’s nice to have options. Not aware of any fleet buyers engaging with petrol yet in any meaningful way, in our company it’s still Skoda, VW, Ford, Opel and Peugeot mainly and all with diesel options

Philb76

Hyundai look like becoming the new Toyota in Ireland agree with other poster not everyone wants a hybrid

Atlantic Dawn

road_high wrote: »

I’m not aware of Hyundai Kia in any rush to ditch diesel either who have already been eating into the traditional mass going market that Toyota once owned. Course many of them don’t need diesels in the first place but for the rest of us it’s nice to have options. Not aware of any fleet buyers engaging with petrol yet in any meaningful way, in our company it’s still Skoda, VW, Ford, Opel and Peugeot mainly and all with diesel options

In Europe diesel is popular due to taxation and a backward perception that passenger cars should be allowed use it in urban areas, in the USA Hyundai/Kia sell zero diesel cars.