Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Would you give Fanning another year out of interest? I know there's no question he wouldn't get a second year in Tipp, but I imagine that will be qualified to some degree at least by the players at his disposal

I would to be honest but he needs to have the courage of his convictions, cut the chord completely from the previous, put his stamp on the team and the style of hurling he wants them to play, a style remember that he moulded all the way up through their underage careers. And if there are certain players involved who dont buy in to it and have divided loyalties etc. bye bye, no county should ever be held ransom to by its players.

blue note

Like, if we want lads who will give everything regardless of who's in charge we can get them. If we keep fanning next year I suspect some of the players won't come back and we'll get a panel of lads dying to show that they're worth keeping when we get a new manager and the other players come back. It will be like the Cork players that played truth the strike, or the limerick ones in Justin's seconds year there. And we won't criticise fanning because we couldn't expect him to do any better when so many players don't play for him. And we won't criticise the players because they're trying their best, they're just not the best 15 in the county. But we'll be doing well to be getting beat by 10 points a game.

mountgomery burns

Pogue eile wrote: »

I would to be honest but he needs to have the courage of his convictions, cut the chord completely from the previous, put his stamp on the team and the style of hurling he wants them to play, a style remember that he moulded all the way up through their underage careers. And if there are certain players involved who dont buy in to it and have divided loyalties etc. bye bye, no county should ever be held ransom to by its players.

Think you're confusing him with Sean Power or somebody else? He wasn't involved with them underage. He was a selector with Davy with both Waterford and Wexford when they setup quite negatively. Not sure what his vision is, but his grounding is in the same school as that of Derek McGrath. Don't think anything we saw this year was an ode to the previous setup.

Waterford’s Michael Ryan was on the GAA hour podcast today and stated that Waterford have massively underachieved in recent years. He made a point that this team were at their peak about two years ago with the blend of youth and experience. Hard to argue really.

upthedeise16

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Waterford’s Michael Ryan was on the GAA hour podcast today and stated that Waterford have massively underachieved in recent years. He made a point that this team were at their peak about two years ago with the blend of youth and experience. Hard to argue really.

Listened to it, spoke a lot of sense, our Munster record is abysmal and even though we did reach an All-Ireland final, we have underachieved in the Munster championship.
It was his first time to speak about his departure which is 6 years ago, speaks volume of the man compared to Derek who has been so public. Ryan was pushed out yet decided to just move on and his ego wasn’t so inflated that he would go to the lesser counties like Westmeath. Ryan should be regarded as a legend in our county, going to the ladies matches in Croker and winning those All-Ireland’s was my only chance as a youngster to go to Croke Park as our hurlers were in demise. An undervalued character.

Alf Tupper

upthedeise16 wrote: »

Listened to it, spoke a lot of sense, our Munster record is abysmal and even though we did reach an All-Ireland final, we have underachieved in the Munster championship.
It was his first time to speak about his departure which is 6 years ago, speaks volume of the man compared to Derek who has been so public. Ryan was pushed out yet decided to just move on and his ego wasn’t so inflated that he would go to the lesser counties like Westmeath. Ryan should be regarded as a legend in our county, going to the ladies matches in Croker and winning those All-Ireland’s was my only chance as a youngster to go to Croke Park as our hurlers were in demise. An undervalued character.

Treated disgracefully by McGrath and his stalking horses aka the DLS PPU that he got to do the dirt for him. Karma is a bitch though and the wheel is turning for the same guys!!

Stopitwillya

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Pogue eile wrote: »

I would to be honest but he needs to have the courage of his convictions, cut the chord completely from the previous, put his stamp on the team and the style of hurling he wants them to play, a style remember that he moulded all the way up through their underage careers. And if there are certain players involved who dont buy in to it and have divided loyalties etc. bye bye, no county should ever be held ransom to by its players.

Think you're confusing him with Sean Power or somebody else? He wasn't involved with them underage. He was a selector with Davy with both Waterford and Wexford when they setup quite negatively. Not sure what his vision is, but his grounding is in the same school as that of Derek McGrath. Don't think anything we saw this year was an ode to the previous setup.

He had us this year playing even more negatively thàn Derek. My abiding memory of this year's championship will be Waterford playing with a gale against limerick, driving the ball down on maurice, who was outnumbered 4 to 1 and not a Waterford forward near him.
It was crazy stuff.
The players get alot of criticism for giving up that day and rightly so but at the same time fannings tactics didn't help them.
He has to go.

Stopitwillya

Alf Tupper wrote: »

upthedeise16 wrote: »

Listened to it, spoke a lot of sense, our Munster record is abysmal and even though we did reach an All-Ireland final, we have underachieved in the Munster championship.
It was his first time to speak about his departure which is 6 years ago, speaks volume of the man compared to Derek who has been so public. Ryan was pushed out yet decided to just move on and his ego wasn’t so inflated that he would go to the lesser counties like Westmeath. Ryan should be regarded as a legend in our county, going to the ladies matches in Croker and winning those All-Ireland’s was my only chance as a youngster to go to Croke Park as our hurlers were in demise. An undervalued character.

Treated disgracefully by McGrath and his stalking horses aka the DLS PPU that he got to do the dirt for him. Karma is a bitch though and the wheel is turning for the same guys!!

No bull**** about this man. Had us playing some good hurling and so unlucky not to beat kilkenny in thurlus.
Would love to see him back as manager but can't see it ever happening.

mountgomery burns

EYEBALLSOUT wrote: »

Well it’s fairly straightforward. In order to move forward all players putting themselves forward for selection nxt year need to be at the one level, feel equal and whatever achievements the more experienced players have achieved be it personal or as part of the collective doesn’t come into the reckoning when being selected. This will give younger lads the sense they can break onto the team or panel and it puts the older lads on notice- performance is all that matters not past glories etc etc... hope that helps clarify it for you...

29 players played for Waterford in the championship this year, nearly two different teams. I would be fairly certain that is more than any other County to date.

What's this assumption about players being picked on reputation? We're all experts on team selection in hindsight, I don't doubt Fanning and every Waterford manager that has come before him was in a better place to judge who was performing in training/challenges as well as the competitive games rather than the hurlers on the ditch.

What you're saying is stating the absolute obvious. To put our failures down to player selection is just far too simplistic. Do you think Fanning said to the squad " right lads the 10 lads sitting over there are nailed on so realistically the other 25 of ye are playing for 5 places. Best of luck"?

Mastermcgrath

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Treated disgracefully by McGrath and his stalking horses aka the DLS PPU that he got to do the dirt for him. Karma is a bitch though and the wheel is turning for the same guys!!

What’s it like to feel happy about seeing your county team up s**t creek? Must be bizarre

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Think you're confusing him with Sean Power or somebody else? He wasn't involved with them underage. He was a selector with Davy with both Waterford and Wexford when they setup quite negatively. Not sure what his vision is, but his grounding is in the same school as that of Derek McGrath. Don't think anything we saw this year was an ode to the previous setup.

Correct and right, apologies, not really sure in hindsight how I confused the two

BazBox

People still giving out about Derek:rolleyes:

Michael Ryan banging on about an abysmal Munster Record, didn't he lose against Clare in 2013? Nearly beating Kilkenny must be a great achievement. Big Bad Derek actually went and did it.

JeffKenna

BazBox wrote: »

People still giving out about Derek:rolleyes:

Michael Ryan banging on about an abysmal Munster Record, didn't he lose against Clare in 2013? Nearly beating Kilkenny must be a great achievement. Big Bad Derek actually went and did it.

How many attempts did Derek have to have?

Alf Tupper

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Treated disgracefully by McGrath and his stalking horses aka the DLS PPU that he got to do the dirt for him. Karma is a bitch though and the wheel is turning for the same guys!!

What are you suggesting here? That when Michael Ryan was manager, Derek decided he wanted the job so asked the DLS players to rattle the boat and oust the manager on the assumption that he'd definitely get the vacant job and then the DLS players went along with it?

That's a bit of a stretch, even for social media.

BazBox

JeffKenna wrote: »

How many attempts did Derek have to have?

A good few. Was there any particular reason Ryan only got 1?

mountgomery burns

I was surprised that Micheal Ryan resigned at the time, but he said he'd lost the dressing room.

But do people ever consider that given the players have played at top level with some of the best coaches and management setups through from Harty cup to fitzgibbon to inter county that they might no a bit more about when an particular management team is delivering the best for them than say a fan who has no access to training?

And that highly motivated players who can get to a level where they are selected for an inter county don't just jeopardize there chance of success by deciding to have "a good mate" in charge of the team?

Just on Fanning, would any other County accept the defeats we've taken this year and give the manager a second year? Or if so, what's the level of their aspirations?

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I was surprised that Micheal Ryan resigned at the time, but he said he'd lost the dressing room.

But do people ever consider that given the players have played at top level with some of the best coaches and management setups through from Harty cup to fitzgibbon to inter county that they might no a bit more about when an particular management team is delivering the best for them than say a fan who has no access to training?

And that highly motivated players who can get to a level where they are selected for an inter county don't just jeopardize there chance of success by deciding to have "a good mate" in charge of the team?

Just on Fanning, would any other County accept the defeats we've taken this year and give the manager a second year? Or if so, what's the level of their aspirations?

How many more managers are going to be cast aside before the players are looked at.

_blaaz

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I was surprised that Micheal Ryan resigned at the time, but he said he'd lost the dressing room.

Without wanting to reopen old wounds he was treated terribly that day

mountgomery burns

Pogue eile wrote: »

How many more managers are going to be cast aside before the players are looked at.

The last manager had 5 years. The previous manager 2 years, the one before that 3 and a half years and the one before that 7 years (the longest of any manager in hurling outside of Cody in my memory). This casting managers aside thing is nonsense. Moran and Brick the only players on the panel that were there in 2008.

Two years ago they were in an all Ireland final. Doesn't give them a divine right to anything subsequent to that, but the least you expect is some level of competiveness. We couldn't get within 10 points of any of the qualifiers from Munster. I'm not saying players are beyond criticism or that some might have time called on their careers. But I think Fanning should go regardless.

If he's still there next year then so be it. The very least that needs to be done now is to strongly evaluate the alternatives.

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The last manager had 5 years. The previous manager 2 years, the one before that 3 and a half years and the one before that 7 years (the longest of any manager in hurling outside of Cody in my memory). This casting managers aside thing is nonsense. Moran and Brick the only players on the panel that were there in 2008.

Thats a very selective way of analysing it. Another way of looking at it would be -Justin McCarthy ousted by the players, Davy Fitz heavily criticised throughout and hes head was called for after the 2011 MF, Michael Ryan shafted by the players, Derek McGrath heavily criticised throughout his reign and now you are happy to throw Fanning to the wolves!

Interesting that you mention Cody - Cody had a terrible start to his tenure and it took him 3 years to earn success, same as both Nicky English and Liam Sheedy in Tipp.

I get the feeling the priority right now is getting Walsh Park upgraded and all funding is going towards that. My guess is maybe the county board are happy to leave things as they are until there is a good home venue and better financial support to attract and get behind a new manager.
Sounds very negative and why would anyone bother making the effort next year if that was the case but it's just a paranoid thought.....
If this was the case then Fanning should be applauded for sticking with us - like Benetiz with Newcastle!

Mastermcgrath

mountgomery burns wrote: »

. Moran and Brick the only players on the panel that were there in 2008. .

Shane Fives was there in 08 aswell, without suggesting anyone was the ring leader, these lads have been there for the ousting of 3 managers, McCarthy, Ryan and now Fanning (what we all beleive to be happening). That’s some feat. The problem is not these particular players though (who are all sound fellahs) it’s more the precedent that’s been set, the mindset that has been passed down to younger players that if things don’t go well it’s the managers fault and if you throw the rattle out of the pram, you won’t be compromised. Wouldn't be tolerated in many other counties. Look at Cork and Limerick when the players revolted a number of years back, the co board and management dug in their heels and the players were hung out. It hasn't happened since as the players know they are not bigger than the county.

mountgomery burns

Pogue eile wrote: »

Thats a very selective way of analysing it. Another way of looking at it would be -Justin McCarthy ousted by the players, Davy Fitz heavily criticised throughout and hes head was called for after the 2011 MF, Michael Ryan shafted by the players, Derek McGrath heavily criticised throughout his reign and now you are happy to throw Fanning to the wolves!

Interesting that you mention Cody - Cody had a terrible start to his tenure and it took him 3 years to earn success, same as both Nicky English and Liam Sheedy in Tipp.

Ah it's not even remotely as selective as how you're looking at it. The length of the tenure has every relevance, seems to be the only justification for Fanning getting another year.

Is this fans or players you are talking about now? Because there was no player revolt against Fitzgerald or McGrath. It was messy and should never happened mid season the way it did, but McCarthys time was up. Did great things for Waterford.

Its amazing for me to see the tribute to Michael Ryan here the last couple of days. I recall him getting the back cutoff him, the same personal vitriol that Derek McGrath was subjected to. I personally would have defended both in that regard. And again nothing personal against Fanning, but I for one cannot see how we can accept he's the man for the job after the results we've had this year.

I would say our average change in managers by the way compares very well with any county outside of Kilkenny since 1997. And to say Sheedy had no success until year 3 is just daft. They were in beaten in 2008 his first year up until the all Ireland semi. They nearly stopped the 4 in a row the following year having walked through Munster. Cody won an all Ireland in his second year having been beaten in a final the year before. None of those named would have lasted past year one had they taken the beatings we got this year.

Alf Tupper

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Ah it's not even remotely as selective as how you're looking at it. The length of the tenure has every relevance, seems to be the only justification for Fanning getting another year.

And again nothing personal against Fanning, but I for one cannot see how we can accept he's the man for the job after the results we've had this year.

None of those named would have lasted past year one had they taken the beatings we got this year.

But McGrath was allowed four more years after 2013 which was way worse than Fanning's annus horribilis.

Local_Chap

Pogue eile wrote: »

Thats a very selective way of analysing it. Another way of looking at it would be -Justin McCarthy ousted by the players, Davy Fitz heavily criticised throughout and hes head was called for after the 2011 MF, Michael Ryan shafted by the players, Derek McGrath heavily criticised throughout his reign and now you are happy to throw Fanning to the wolves!

Interesting that you mention Cody - Cody had a terrible start to his tenure and it took him 3 years to earn success, same as both Nicky English and Liam Sheedy in Tipp.

In the first 3 years under Cody, Kilkenny lost the final to Cork by a point in 1999, bet Offaly in the final in 2000 and lost to Galway in the Semi final in 2001. They also won 3 successive Leinster titles. Terrible start alright.

mountgomery burns

Alf Tupper wrote: »

But McGrath was allowed four more years after 2013 which was way worse than Fanning's annus horribilis.

It was not way worse and it was also 2014.

Pogue eile

Local_Chap wrote: »

In the first 3 years under Cody, Kilkenny lost the final to Cork by a point in 1999, bet Offaly in the final in 2000 and lost to Galway in the Semi final in 2001. They also won 3 successive Leinster titles. Terrible start alright.

My bad, I thought he was there in 1998 as well.

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

And to say Sheedy had no success until year 3 is just daft.

It would be, if I had said it.

_blaaz

mountgomery burns wrote: »

It was not way worse and it was also 2014.

It was....i was at the kk and clare league games

mountgomery burns

Pogue eile wrote: »

Interesting that you mention Cody - Cody had a terrible start to his tenure and it took him 3 years to earn success, same as both Nicky English and Liam Sheedy in Tipp.

Forgive me Pogue Eile, but the above looks very like you're saying it took Liam Sheedy 3 years to earn success in Tipp. Can you clarify please?